Future AM engines and Valhalla
Discussion
Venturist said:
JohnG1 said:
Ah come on. There are more metrics than power-to-weight ratio. Picking one metric, well, that's a game called "Top Trumps" , maybe you played that too?
Cam-in-V....
Come on, the 1950s are on the phone, they'd like their Powertrain back...
Can’t disagree with you more - the most important factors in a sports car engine are its sound, power-to-weight ratio, and eagerness to rev. The “1950s powertrain” isn’t even particularly bad on fuel. In fact can you outline how it is actually worse, beyond just that you perceive it as “old”? Cam-in-V....
Come on, the 1950s are on the phone, they'd like their Powertrain back...
Which manufacturer of V8s use a cam-in-V? The Rover V8 (ex-Buick did) but when did a European manufacturer last use that?
It's a boat anchor. I've heard various Corvettes, sound good. If I lived in America I'd probably buy a Corvette and a Mustang, just to tick the boxes. But GM not investing in drivetrain. Well...
Jon39 said:
oilit said:
I think the emotional side wants AM technology, but the reality is that it doesn't seem to have hampered Bentley sales or Lamborghini that it is essentially VAG technology underneath has it?
I am simply putting this point out for discussion, not saying it is true.
The two cars you have selected oilit, are very much 'here I am, look at me cars'.
Does that mean the buyers might not be intense car enthusiasts, or so concerned about the construction intricacies?
It is always suggested, that many (possibly most) Aston Martin buyers take a great interest in their cars and often the history of the marque, also placing considerable importance on the understated and beautiful features.
Those variations might possibly result in prospective Aston Martin customers, having different requirements and arriving at their buying decisions in a different way.
They are those type of brands (Lambo especially) that could be seen as you descibed, but isn't that also what the new Vantage design is really saying compared to the previous generation (not saying that is good or bad)?
I think people in the Bentley world buy into the heritage a bit like AM (can't comment on Lamborghini).
My point was if you look at the VH series they used a lot of Volvo/Ford/Jaguar components, but no-one really complained. The Bentley has a lot of VW/Audi stuff buried under all that leather and wood - I suspect the Lamborghini is the same - but both Bentley & Lamborghini are flourishing with this technology sharing setup - and AM did considerably better (non suv) when they too were using the parts bin noted above.
Which makes me think the real issue maybe that the product just isn't special enough visually and emotionally for the price - thus isn't pulling me and others in to buy one. (exactly the same issue MB had with its badge engineering mentioned above). Truth be told - I don't really care about where the V8 comes from - is it reliable, does it sound like a V8, does it perform well? I think the MB units tick all of those boxes.
I think most of this comes back to understanding your customers.
The USP of the VAG subsidiaries is different from that of Aston Martin. Bentley and Lamborghini customers care less about the 'purity' of their product than the Aston buyers. Aston are never going to technically match these companies with Porsche behind them but by doing their own thing they could have had their corner of the market.
Failing to understand their customers and the IPO has created a situation whereby to survive the traditional Aston customer is probably going to be less of a consideration.
Regarding engines again, yes they may be expensive to develop, but like McLaren the uniqueness of its powerplant matters to it's customers so even if it would have cost a lot to produce an engine, it's a necessary investment. And a V8 is going to be around for a while in North America yet.
The USP of the VAG subsidiaries is different from that of Aston Martin. Bentley and Lamborghini customers care less about the 'purity' of their product than the Aston buyers. Aston are never going to technically match these companies with Porsche behind them but by doing their own thing they could have had their corner of the market.
Failing to understand their customers and the IPO has created a situation whereby to survive the traditional Aston customer is probably going to be less of a consideration.
Regarding engines again, yes they may be expensive to develop, but like McLaren the uniqueness of its powerplant matters to it's customers so even if it would have cost a lot to produce an engine, it's a necessary investment. And a V8 is going to be around for a while in North America yet.
Edited by WantSagaris on Saturday 27th February 16:07
JohnG1 said:
Cam-in-V, pushrods. What's the top end rpm you can get with pushrods?
LS engines commonly 7000 red line, which is exactly the same as the bleeding edge modern Merc M177 in the Astons?JohnG1 said:
Which manufacturer of V8s use a cam-in-V? The Rover V8 (ex-Buick did) but when did a European manufacturer last use that?
I asked how is it actually any worse, all you’ve got is “nobody else does it”? What matters is results, in terms of stats as well as the intangibles, and the LS engines have both, except for some perception that they’re old tech and therefore bad. But the new tech engine doesn’t seem to be able to be able to offer anything it doesn’t. FWIW I don’t think anything GM has the pedigree suitable for an Aston, marketing-wise, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with them.
I agree that the LT5 isn’t the right fit for Aston, but not because of it being worthy from a performance point of view. Personally, I would love the Ford Voodoo in the Vantage. It’s far more in character with the Aston brand than is the AMG power plant. The sound is spine tingling compared to AMG’s popping and farting sound.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
I agree that the LT5 isn’t the right fit for Aston, but not because of it being worthy from a performance point of view. Personally, I would love the Ford Voodoo in the Vantage. It’s far more in character with the Aston brand than is the AMG power plant. The sound is spine tingling compared to AMG’s popping and farting sound.
^^^ what he said!Voodoo and Coyote, two great bits of kit.
Some induction and exhaust tweaks to modify the sound and it could drop straight into the 4.0 TT AMG-engined V8 Vantage
JohnG1 said:
^^^ what he said!
Voodoo and Coyote, two great bits of kit.
Some induction and exhaust tweaks to modify the sound and it could drop straight into the 4.0 TT AMG-engined V8 Vantage
Yes the Voodoo particularly is a really exciting (seeming) engine, the flat plane crank makes all the difference and gives it some perceived specialness. Sounds a bit like the old AJV8 too. I was gutted to find out you can’t get it anywhere but the GT350, not even as a crate motor!Voodoo and Coyote, two great bits of kit.
Some induction and exhaust tweaks to modify the sound and it could drop straight into the 4.0 TT AMG-engined V8 Vantage
Big Ry: I get questioning the development of any new ICE, but the V6 is so far along in its development… Also, I don’t think ICE engines are done yet. They also keep getting cleaner, so I’m not convinced that their demise is as imminent as we’re hearing. Porsche, for one, is spending money and making progress with synthetic fuels. They’re far too pragmatic to do that is there’s no hope. Electric has many advantages, but also many negatives that aren’t discussed. We are moving toward electric, but I really don’t think the ICE is done in 10 years. There is far too much work to do to get electric cars – and the infrastructure -- up to the necessary capacity.
CB07: No – the M256 is a Benz engine. Therefore, it doesn’t belong in an Aston Martin.
WantSagaris: I certainly CAN blame Stroll. And I do.
SFO: Many of us on this forum are very well-versed and experienced in economics and economies of scale. None of us has said it’s easy or less-than-expensive for Aston to build its own engines and/or platforms. But it is doable. And it is necessary if Aston is to remain Aston, rather than a badge on a Benz. Ferrari does it (profitably). McLaren does it (not-so-profitably). Maserati just developed its own engine. Aston needs a partner, but a beneficent one. Daimler clearly isn’t that. AMG engines being world class is a non-starter. If it has a Benz engine or a Benz platform it cannot be an Aston Martin.
CardiganKid M-B are absolutely such fools as to waste the AM brand. They don’t even care about their own brand’s integrity anymore – can you say Kangoo? They simply don’t give a crap about anything regarding this “venture” except whether they make money. Obviously, making money is important, but when it’s the only criteria then the product invariably becomes more mainstream, less special and less interesting. An “Aston” that is merely a badge on a Benz would be perfectly fine if it makes them money. Whether it obliterates what makes Aston Martin Aston Martin simply doesn’t matter. No one has said we must bring back the ‘60s or ‘70s, or Newport Pagnell methods. None of us has said the VH cars are Fords. A Benz-engined and/or platformed “Aston” isn’t an Aston. It comprehensively obliterates the whole point of an Aston. It’s THE END. Perhaps not of the name, or the “brand,” but it’s the end of Aston Martin.
Oilit For me, and for many people, Bentleys and Lamborghinis that are VW/Audis underneath are of no interest to me whatsoever – precisely for that reason. In fact, it’s a major reason why I’ve bought Astons rather than any of those. It’s telling that BMW now builds its new Ghost on a R-R-only platform, unlike the previous Ghost. Sadly, they still use BMW engines. Various small parts coming from Ford/Volvo/Jaguar bothers me not at all. The company that makes the electrics or the HVAC has no bearing whatsoever on the character of the car. The engine and platform comprise the heart, bones and soul of a car. Those must be Aston Martin-only.
It would be very hard to find someone who loves Aston Martin, and wants them to survive, more than I do. The cheap way is, surely, to just use Benz engines and platforms. But that is NOT Aston surviving, that is Aston dying. It is the wrong way, and it is not the only way. This is Aston Martin. Do it right, or don’t do it at all. As deeply as I want them to survive, I’d rather see them exit gracefully, having had a long and great run, with their dignity intact than be disgraced by becoming merely a Badge-on-a-Benz.
CB07: No – the M256 is a Benz engine. Therefore, it doesn’t belong in an Aston Martin.
WantSagaris: I certainly CAN blame Stroll. And I do.
SFO: Many of us on this forum are very well-versed and experienced in economics and economies of scale. None of us has said it’s easy or less-than-expensive for Aston to build its own engines and/or platforms. But it is doable. And it is necessary if Aston is to remain Aston, rather than a badge on a Benz. Ferrari does it (profitably). McLaren does it (not-so-profitably). Maserati just developed its own engine. Aston needs a partner, but a beneficent one. Daimler clearly isn’t that. AMG engines being world class is a non-starter. If it has a Benz engine or a Benz platform it cannot be an Aston Martin.
CardiganKid M-B are absolutely such fools as to waste the AM brand. They don’t even care about their own brand’s integrity anymore – can you say Kangoo? They simply don’t give a crap about anything regarding this “venture” except whether they make money. Obviously, making money is important, but when it’s the only criteria then the product invariably becomes more mainstream, less special and less interesting. An “Aston” that is merely a badge on a Benz would be perfectly fine if it makes them money. Whether it obliterates what makes Aston Martin Aston Martin simply doesn’t matter. No one has said we must bring back the ‘60s or ‘70s, or Newport Pagnell methods. None of us has said the VH cars are Fords. A Benz-engined and/or platformed “Aston” isn’t an Aston. It comprehensively obliterates the whole point of an Aston. It’s THE END. Perhaps not of the name, or the “brand,” but it’s the end of Aston Martin.
Oilit For me, and for many people, Bentleys and Lamborghinis that are VW/Audis underneath are of no interest to me whatsoever – precisely for that reason. In fact, it’s a major reason why I’ve bought Astons rather than any of those. It’s telling that BMW now builds its new Ghost on a R-R-only platform, unlike the previous Ghost. Sadly, they still use BMW engines. Various small parts coming from Ford/Volvo/Jaguar bothers me not at all. The company that makes the electrics or the HVAC has no bearing whatsoever on the character of the car. The engine and platform comprise the heart, bones and soul of a car. Those must be Aston Martin-only.
It would be very hard to find someone who loves Aston Martin, and wants them to survive, more than I do. The cheap way is, surely, to just use Benz engines and platforms. But that is NOT Aston surviving, that is Aston dying. It is the wrong way, and it is not the only way. This is Aston Martin. Do it right, or don’t do it at all. As deeply as I want them to survive, I’d rather see them exit gracefully, having had a long and great run, with their dignity intact than be disgraced by becoming merely a Badge-on-a-Benz.
Speedraser said:
Lot's of stuff I agree with
Surely the Porsche model would be a good one to follow and by that I mean badge engineering for the SUV range which then supports/funds the unique sports car range. How successful has that been for them?Personally, I have no interest in owning an SUV but, even if I did and I was crazy enough to spend £150K+ on an Aston Martin SUV, I don't think I'd care much that it was effectively a MB in drag. My interest is with sports cars and, like Speedraser, I would never buy an Aston that had a MB engine mounted on a MB platform. I'd buy a GT3 instead.
V8V Pete said:
Surely the Porsche model would be a good one to follow and by that I mean badge engineering for the SUV range which then supports/funds the unique sports car range. How successful has that been for them?
Personally, I have no interest in owning an SUV but, even if I did and I was crazy enough to spend £150K+ on an Aston Martin SUV, I don't think I'd care much that it was effectively a MB in drag. My interest is with sports cars and, like Speedraser, I would never buy an Aston that had a MB engine mounted on a MB platform. I'd buy a GT3 instead.
Good point. I have a Vanquish II and Macan. I don’t care that the Macan is not a ‘real’ Porsche (tbh I don’t like Porsche sports cars) but I’m not in the least bit interested in a rebadged MB dressed up as an Aston. They completely lost the plot under AP. Personally, I have no interest in owning an SUV but, even if I did and I was crazy enough to spend £150K+ on an Aston Martin SUV, I don't think I'd care much that it was effectively a MB in drag. My interest is with sports cars and, like Speedraser, I would never buy an Aston that had a MB engine mounted on a MB platform. I'd buy a GT3 instead.
moveover said:
V8V Pete said:
..... I would never buy an Aston that had a MB engine mounted on a MB platform. I'd buy a GT3 instead.
I’m not in the least bit interested in a rebadged MB dressed up as an Aston. They completely lost the plot under AP. How much do Aston Martin value their existing customers ?
We saw a long time ago, in my repeat buyers topic, that so many owners used to repeatedly buy more Astons.
AP talked about seeking 'new younger wealthy customers'. My own youngsters might be considered high flying professionals, but they spend their money on a home and family, not depreciating toys. Later in life might be considered a better time for that.
Now I see Jaguar are also talking about new younger, wealthy customers.
Do they teach this stuff on, 'Luxury car business' degree courses ?
..............
Jaguar's upmarket move
Investors were told that Jaguar would be moving upmarket with plans to “modernise and reimagine Jaguar in the luxury space. The brand would “target wealthier, younger, urban, creatively minded group.”
That will mean a more expensive positioning to hit Jaguar’s revenue targets with lower volume than Jaguar manages with its current line-up. “This new brand will be lower volume, it will be more exclusive and it will be a true luxury experience from the product to the way we take it to market,” said Gerry McGovern.
...............
(You might have seen disguised Jaguar XJ development car spy shots. - That imminent new all electric model, has now been cancelled.)
V8V Pete said:
My interest is with sports cars and, like Speedraser, I would never buy an Aston that had a MB engine mounted on a MB platform. I'd buy a GT3 instead.
If Aston offered two choices, a better MB engine, or an inferior Aston engine, but both engines were better than the GT3 equivalent, would you get the inferior Aston engine?Speedraser said:
As deeply as I want them to survive, I’d rather see them exit gracefully, having had a long and great run, with their dignity intact than be disgraced by becoming merely a Badge-on-a-Benz.
You argue very cogently and passionately for your perspective.I would absolutely prefer an Aston Martin to have as little platform sharing as possible. I completely get it, and the historicity of the brand and provenance of the engineering are very important to me. However, I would prefer for the continuance of the brand more and this is where I just can't agree with you. If engine or (even) platform-sharing are necessary to secure the future of Aston Martin, and if the resulting product is of a high quality and within my budget, I would still purchase and enjoy it.
I've driven the DB11 V8 and the new Vantage (a few times), and thoroughly enjoyed the experience deivered by that lovely AMG V8. If I am in the fortunate position of being able to buy another of these cars at some point in the future, I have already decided on one of those versus the AML V12 - good as it is. of course, it will be a real shame if the TM01 really has been cancelled, especially if most of the development has been done. They may have to clarify that, but it seems likely.
Back in the day, I owned a Lotus Elise S1, and there was really no debate over whether that car was a real Lotus on the forums. The Elise IS a real Lotus, despite that Rover 1.8l K-series engine that sounds like a room full of sewing machines and is prone to head-gasket failure.
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