Discussion
andyvvc said:
Sooo.... filling up with 'Super' unleaded from anywhere (Sainsburys, Shell, ESSO) is always going to be E5? Regular unleaded is (potentially) E10?
If I've got that right - shouldn't the OP be using Super on the Vantage anyway? Were the 4.3s ever supposed to be run on anything less than 97 RON fuel? (Or is the question here "If I am on vapour and only E10 regular unleaded is available, is a tenners worth [until i get to a Super pump] going to kill my car" ?)
Vantage designed to run on any petrol available worldwide. From memory will run on less than 95RON. But fine on 95 or over in the UK. Has knock sensors, so engine automatically adjustsIf I've got that right - shouldn't the OP be using Super on the Vantage anyway? Were the 4.3s ever supposed to be run on anything less than 97 RON fuel? (Or is the question here "If I am on vapour and only E10 regular unleaded is available, is a tenners worth [until i get to a Super pump] going to kill my car" ?)
Jon39 said:
Has it been announced that 'will be' is compulsory, or might it just be 'up to 5%' ?
Perhaps we can hope that ESSO will continue their zero ethanol.
It's "up to" as far as I'm aware, so Esso can still sell E0 99 RON Supreme with an E5 label as they do currently. The point I'm making is that if you buy 95 RON from now you could get up to 10% ethanol, but I'm not sure if the 10% will be mandatory. For RON 97 and above you'll get E5, and possibly E0 (but it will be labelled E5 on the pump). You won't get E10 in a fuel over 95 RON. Yet.Perhaps we can hope that ESSO will continue their zero ethanol.
So can a DB9 2004 onwards use E20 or E25 petrol??
My point being governments seem to want to keep on upping the ethanol content which eventually makes it very difficult to get suitable petrol, what happens then?
What will the classic cars that can't run on E10 petrol do if eventually E5 stops being sold??
My point being governments seem to want to keep on upping the ethanol content which eventually makes it very difficult to get suitable petrol, what happens then?
What will the classic cars that can't run on E10 petrol do if eventually E5 stops being sold??
This does seem to be a hotly debated topic and some really interesting and useful posts here, I have learned things so thank you!
My simplistic view is that if a manufacturer has designed the car to take E5 or E10 then that should be absolutely fine and no damage should be caused even in the long term as they should not have used plastics and metals that are not adversely affected by ethanol. But then, that is not always the case. With certain plastic motorcycle tanks even on comparatively recent bikes, mine included, they swell over the years with ethanol use, although if you drain them and hang them out to dry they shrink again in a couple of weeks!!!I So here is always the possibility of scrimping/cock ups. If there was a handy Esso near me then I would use that but there isn't so I shrug my shoulders and use the best fuel I can conveniently splash in.
From a parts point of view only, I can't see a difference between a part used for E5 and E10.
The Aston V8 can indeed run on 95 RON but I never have, if the engines have knock sensors the I would prefer the smoother burn of high RON fuels anyway and they tend to have other lovely stuff in them too like cleaning agents.
I see there are additive for the classics to use E5/10, but like lead replacement and valve guides I wonder if the supply of ethanol-resistant parts may come to pass. And in due course any fossil fuel car will become a classic anyway!
My simplistic view is that if a manufacturer has designed the car to take E5 or E10 then that should be absolutely fine and no damage should be caused even in the long term as they should not have used plastics and metals that are not adversely affected by ethanol. But then, that is not always the case. With certain plastic motorcycle tanks even on comparatively recent bikes, mine included, they swell over the years with ethanol use, although if you drain them and hang them out to dry they shrink again in a couple of weeks!!!I So here is always the possibility of scrimping/cock ups. If there was a handy Esso near me then I would use that but there isn't so I shrug my shoulders and use the best fuel I can conveniently splash in.
From a parts point of view only, I can't see a difference between a part used for E5 and E10.
The Aston V8 can indeed run on 95 RON but I never have, if the engines have knock sensors the I would prefer the smoother burn of high RON fuels anyway and they tend to have other lovely stuff in them too like cleaning agents.
I see there are additive for the classics to use E5/10, but like lead replacement and valve guides I wonder if the supply of ethanol-resistant parts may come to pass. And in due course any fossil fuel car will become a classic anyway!
Here's one interesting angle to throw in... the V12 engines before the Bosch management system was introduced didnt have knock sensors so were all set to 95RON (in the UK at least), i.e. the version in the V12V and others (510BHP or less). So these models have no benefit in putting RON98-100 fuel, other than it seems for now that will remain as E5 not E10 so there is the benefit of less bioethanol.
So that negates out some of the value from the higher grade fuels for owners of cars with those engines.
So that negates out some of the value from the higher grade fuels for owners of cars with those engines.
vernierMike said:
... If there was a handy Esso near me then I would use that but there isn't so I shrug my shoulders and use the best fuel I can
conveniently splash in. ...
... I see there are additive for the classics to use E5/10 ...
conveniently splash in. ...
... I see there are additive for the classics to use E5/10 ...
I expect you already know this, but worth checking the location for ethanol free ESSO petrol (website or customer services). It is not available in all parts of the UK.
I think fuel retailers sometimes share distribution, so if an ESSO station is near a competitors refinery or distribution centre, it might not be ethanol free.
As Dewi 2 mentioned earlier, how can a fuel additive remove ethanol from petrol, simply by pouring it in to the tank ?
Sounds like magic.
AdamV12V said:
So these models have no benefit in putting RON98-100 fuel, other than it seems for now that will remain as E5 not E10 so there is the benefit of less bioethanol.
I think your reference of 'less bioethanol', probably relates to the point mentioned earlier by LTP, reduced power (although in a V12V, the difference might not even be noticeable).
However ethanol is, volume for volume, about 30% less energy dense than petrol, so the change from E5 to E10 will mean about a 3% reduction in the energy content of every gallon (or litre) you use. Or, to put it another way and all other things being equal, a 420 bhp car becomes a 407 bhp car.
Jon39 said:
I expect you already know this, but worth checking the location for ethanol free ESSO petrol (website or customer services). It is not available in all parts of the UK.
I think fuel retailers sometimes share distribution, so if an ESSO station is near a competitors refinery or distribution centre, it might not be ethanol free.
As Dewi 2 mentioned earlier, how can a fuel additive remove ethanol from petrol, simply by pouring it in to the tank ?
Sounds like magic.
Yes, I'm not sure it removes it, rather tries to compensate for the impact...
Jon39 said:
AdamV12V said:
So these models have no benefit in putting RON98-100 fuel, other than it seems for now that will remain as E5 not E10 so there is the benefit of less bioethanol.
I think your reference of 'less bioethanol', probably relates to the point mentioned earlier by LTP, reduced power (although in a V12V, the difference might not even be noticeable).
However ethanol is, volume for volume, about 30% less energy dense than petrol, so the change from E5 to E10 will mean about a 3% reduction in the energy content of every gallon (or litre) you use. Or, to put it another way and all other things being equal, a 420 bhp car becomes a 407 bhp car.
I too had heard 3% for E10, but jnterestingly the gov website seems to suggest its around 1% worse and barely noticable on most cars - which is a bit off really given the whole idea of this change is to make it more “green”
AdamV12V said:
I too had heard 3% for E10, but jnterestingly the gov website seems to suggest its around 1% worse and barely noticable on most cars - which is a bit off really given the whole idea of this change is to make it more “green”
We now need a petro-chemical scientist to help us discuss this.
LTP (Paul) said the 3% power loss was when going from E5 to E10, so whether that might indicate a 6% power loss from pure petrol to E10, I don't know. We are told that some ethanol eventually becomes water, presumably we won't get any 'squeeze, bang, push', from that part of the fuel.
The government might say only around 1% worse, but the government used to say diesel engines are much 'cleaner' than petrol engines. At least with that partucular announcement, we knew it was tosh whenever we saw a bus belching black smoke.
very true about Diesel! The once much heralded fuel fell from grace very quickly...
I believe that bioethanol produces around 30% less power than pure petrol, therefore a true E10 (10% mix) would give 3% less than pure petrol or indeed an E5 fuel like Esso Synergy supreme+ which is actually 0%.
Maybe the gov figures are massaging the figures by saying E10 is 1% worse than E5 (with a full 5% content), and just rounding the 1.5% down to 1%....
I believe that bioethanol produces around 30% less power than pure petrol, therefore a true E10 (10% mix) would give 3% less than pure petrol or indeed an E5 fuel like Esso Synergy supreme+ which is actually 0%.
Maybe the gov figures are massaging the figures by saying E10 is 1% worse than E5 (with a full 5% content), and just rounding the 1.5% down to 1%....
AdamV12V said:
very true about Diesel! The once much heralded fuel fell from grace very quickly...
I believe that bioethanol produces around 30% less power than pure petrol, therefore a true E10 (10% mix) would give 3% less than pure petrol or indeed an E5 fuel like Esso Synergy supreme+ which is actually 0%.
Maybe the gov figures are massaging the figures by saying E10 is 1% worse than E5 (with a full 5% content), and just rounding the 1.5% down to 1%....
What, you think the government may be manipulating data to suit their own agenda? Surely not I believe that bioethanol produces around 30% less power than pure petrol, therefore a true E10 (10% mix) would give 3% less than pure petrol or indeed an E5 fuel like Esso Synergy supreme+ which is actually 0%.
Maybe the gov figures are massaging the figures by saying E10 is 1% worse than E5 (with a full 5% content), and just rounding the 1.5% down to 1%....
Edited by Old Chimer on Saturday 24th July 16:56
Got asked about this by my dad the other day so had a bit of a read into it, and from what I can work out it's only actually 'standard unleaded' that's changing, 'super unleaded' is unchanged, and I thought that was what we were s'posed to be using anyway. 
https://www.shell.co.uk/motorist/e10-petrol.html
https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol
https://www.shell.co.uk/motorist/e10-petrol.html
https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol
At our local Sainsbury the pump and gun both say E10, but there is an A4 sign taped to each pump stating the fuel is changing to E10 on 1st September. Confusing or what? I queried it with the staff and they have said they are also confused as to why the labelling has been changed so early..... maybe to make some fearful enough to buy Super at a higher price? Store manager 'assured me no change until 1st Sept' but many customers had queried it. I sent an email to Sainsbury Customer support, to get an auto reply giving a list of email that are no longer used - They can only be contacted by 'phone. I may try to 'phone them and get an email response, but I doubt I'll be successful (nothing in writing any more eh?)
Fastpedeller said:
- They can only be contacted by 'phone. I may try to 'phone them and get an email response, but I doubt I'll be successful (nothing in writing any more eh?)
Don't bother telephoning them. All you will achieve, is raised blood pressure. 'Continue to hold, your call is important to us. Keep listening to this awful quality muzak, while we collect our cut of the phone call charge.'
That firm cannot even spell Customer Services.
I guess we are begining to see some E10 labels now, because installing tens of thousands of labels throughout the UK, on the 1st September is obviously impossible.
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