Can Aston Martin Survive in the Electric Vehicle Era?
Discussion
SpeckledJim said:
Yes, the high price is a massive part of the appeal, as long as you don't stretch it into an area where there literally aren't enough people who can, or who choose to, afford you. How many current Rolex owners would wear one if the product was exactly the same but the price was £399.99?
If your profit is £20k on a £200k car, you only need to up your price by 10% and you've doubled your profits. It's mostly in the presentation and brand-building.
None of the customers know what it costs to make their car. Nor do they care as long as the company makes them (and their spouse) feel special, and the car impresses their mates and annoys their dad.
Don't be embarrassed to charge whatever ridiculous amount they'll pay. But you need to be really on your game to be credible at the top of the market - everything is important. AM is not there at the moment.
But like the ill-fated Apple Watch Edition, don't people eventually see through the BS once there's no actual difference in functionality? (I mean apart from 'power, beauty, soul'? If your profit is £20k on a £200k car, you only need to up your price by 10% and you've doubled your profits. It's mostly in the presentation and brand-building.
None of the customers know what it costs to make their car. Nor do they care as long as the company makes them (and their spouse) feel special, and the car impresses their mates and annoys their dad.
Don't be embarrassed to charge whatever ridiculous amount they'll pay. But you need to be really on your game to be credible at the top of the market - everything is important. AM is not there at the moment.
) If there's no mechanical superiority, there's a limit to how much more especial you can make a car feel over, say, a top end BMW or Lexus isn't there?Archie2050 said:
SpeckledJim said:
Yes, the high price is a massive part of the appeal, as long as you don't stretch it into an area where there literally aren't enough people who can, or who choose to, afford you. How many current Rolex owners would wear one if the product was exactly the same but the price was £399.99?
If your profit is £20k on a £200k car, you only need to up your price by 10% and you've doubled your profits. It's mostly in the presentation and brand-building.
None of the customers know what it costs to make their car. Nor do they care as long as the company makes them (and their spouse) feel special, and the car impresses their mates and annoys their dad.
Don't be embarrassed to charge whatever ridiculous amount they'll pay. But you need to be really on your game to be credible at the top of the market - everything is important. AM is not there at the moment.
But like the ill-fated Apple Watch Edition, don't people eventually see through the BS once there's no actual difference in functionality? (I mean apart from 'power, beauty, soul'? If your profit is £20k on a £200k car, you only need to up your price by 10% and you've doubled your profits. It's mostly in the presentation and brand-building.
None of the customers know what it costs to make their car. Nor do they care as long as the company makes them (and their spouse) feel special, and the car impresses their mates and annoys their dad.
Don't be embarrassed to charge whatever ridiculous amount they'll pay. But you need to be really on your game to be credible at the top of the market - everything is important. AM is not there at the moment.
) If there's no mechanical superiority, there's a limit to how much more especial you can make a car feel over, say, a top end BMW or Lexus isn't there?Low production luxury cars have been technically inferior products to, say, a BMW 5 Series, since about the 1970s, because doing things in small numbers, by hand, is inaccurate, and short runs don't permit the same degree of engineering finesse either at the outset, or during production. BMW do a gigantic amount of work on something before they build the first one they'll sell. Very much not the case with luxury cars.
An Aston Martin is basically a leather-bound Lotus. But that's not important. Or I should say, doesn't have to be important.
As long as it's not totally walloping useless we'll forgive it a lot, in return for the other much more important things that it delivers. Exclusivity. Social validation. Excitement. Tactility. Personal reward. Entry to the club.
People pay through the nose for this stuff, as long as it's offered in a compelling way. That's AM's opportunity, and they have a real head start on the bit you can't easily invent. They just need to do a much better job of the boring bits.
SpeckledJim said:
... Don't be embarrassed to charge whatever ridiculous amount they'll pay. But you need to be really on your game to be credible at the top of the market - everything is important.
AM is not there at the moment.
AM is not there at the moment.
Thank you Jim.
I think they were probably there with the recent V12 Vantage.
By rough calculation, the VH V12 Vantage was I think about £150,000 in 2010.
Adjust by inflation takes it to about £200,000, whereas did AML charge about £300,000 for the successor model and seemingly sold them at a faster rate than the original (the limit was a lower number).
I expect AML must have been pleased with that limited edition.
Probably not bothered by the flippers, because their activity seemed to confirm that the list price selected, turned out to be about the highest level achieveable.
As we have been discussing, electric Aston Martins will have a more generic feel, so do you think that might make high value branding more challenging?
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 9th March 12:05
SpeckledJim said:
Archie2050 said:
Jon39 said:
Hello everyone, OP here.
A recent passionate debate, which does make the topic interesting.
Thank you everyone for the 888 posts.
Thinking for a moment about our topic title, will some or all of the many interesting general points put forward, apply specifically to Aston Martin?
For decades, Aston Martin buyers have enjoyed the feel, sound and theatre, of our big engine cars.
Although the VED pollution tax is very high, I understand the VH Vantage is fully compliant with the London Ultra Low Emission Zone.
Can anyone explain that puzzle ?
Quite a contradiction !
In the future, will a large number of car buyers be interested in owning a silent electric Aston Martin ?
Presumably, it will sound the same and feel much the same to drive, as every other electric car?
AML probably regularly need at least 8,000 sales every year, to help the financials.
Is the DBX in a different position compared to the sports cars, whereby an electric DBX version would be attractuve to buyers ?
Looking forward to the continuing debate.
Best wishes to AML PHers.
The issue with ULEZ is therefor mainly diesels and older petrol cars. Modern multi cylinder cars can be made to be very clean but it’s hard to make them efficient due to drivetrain losses.
Whether AML has a place once V12s are not part of the mix? Hard to say but their finances are not getting any better.
https://karenable.com/aston-martins-fy-2022/
V12s aren't the issue.
Jon39 said:
SpeckledJim said:
... Don't be embarrassed to charge whatever ridiculous amount they'll pay. But you need to be really on your game to be credible at the top of the market - everything is important.
AM is not there at the moment.
AM is not there at the moment.
Thank you Jim.
I think they were probably there with the recent V12 Vantage.
By rough calculation, the VH V12 Vantage was I think about £150,000 in 2010.
Adjust by inflation takes it to about £200,000, whereas did AML charge about £300,000 for the successor model and seemingly sold them at a faster rate than the original (the limit was a lower number).
I expect AML must have been pleased with that limited edition.
Probably not bothered by the flippers, because their activity seemed to confirm that the list price selected, turned out to be about the highest level achieveable.
As we have been discussing, electric Aston Martins will have a more generic feel, so do you think that might make high value branding more challenging?
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 9th March 12:05
amongst the consideration set, is the engine the reason to choose the AM over the others? IMO, no, it isn't.
A rorty snorty ICE with a lot of shove and a lot of noise is a hygiene factor in this group. They all have one, and they're all good. The differentiator is something else. Styling maybe. Image maybe. 'character' maybe?
Once we're 'on the other side' of this big change and none of the same consideration set have a rorty snorty ICE and all have a whispering whine of truly devastating performance potential, then nothing changes. Styling, image, character are still the differentiators.
When a dowdy-looking mid-level user-chooser company car is doing 0-60 in 3.1 seconds, the key reason for spending five times as much is not going to be down to the powertrain.
IMO the question boils down to definition..... define "Aston Martin" & define "survive". My definitions say no, the most recent and certainly the historic persona of Aston Martin will not exist in an Electric Vehicle Era. Some manner of branding may exist in that scenario, but there is no competitive, visceral, or aesthetic case for Aston to thrive in a brave new world of appliances.
An article that you might find interesting, about the generation of electricity and the considerable changes required for enough electricity to be produced for future transport, heating, industry etc.
Politicians and others keep talking about zero emissions in 2050.
Seems there is more to that, than has been revealed to us.
Whether the article is correct I don't know, but it is thought provoking.
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://www.teleg...
Speaking of thought provoking, I have come to admire the intellectual engagement and tenacity of your Russell Brand. Here he delves into energy policy with Bjorn Lomborg who, AFAIK, has not been credibly debunked on this topic. The conversation can be found by searching for a podcast using their names. Around the 6 to 8 minute mark Lomborg discusses the reality of "electricity" being just a fraction of global energy usage, and argues that even the total elimination of domestic fossil fuel use would be comparatively meaningless. This would be particularly true if confined to the developed world, which of course would be necessary for global fairness (hard to disagree actually, until a green technology solution is found that avoids perpetuating third-world hunger & poverty).
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bj%C3%B8rn-l...
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bj%C3%B8rn-l...
This is not so good
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
Edited by AstonV on Tuesday 21st March 03:32
AstonV said:
This whole topic has certainly enabled me to learn more about the pluses and minuses of EVs.
Three more minuses now then.
According to the article, even very minor accident damage to a battery pack and an insurer has to 'play safe' and writes off the vehicle.
No recycling avalable in the UK, so batteries are being extracted from damaged vehicles and then just stored in containers.
EV insurance premiums are higher and expected to increase, with the rise in the number of EV writte offs.
The balance between pluses and minuses seems to be changing and more people appear to know about these matters.
How can the 2030 UK ban be implemented in reality ?
The first Aston Martin EV, now scheduled for introduction in 2025.
But to answer the original question of this thread, no, they probably won't survive.
https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/AML.L?showOptin=1#...
https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/AML.L?showOptin=1#...
Jon39 said:
This whole topic has certainly enabled me to learn more about the pluses and minuses of EVs.
Three more minuses now then.
According to the article, even very minor accident damage to a battery pack and an insurer has to 'play safe' and writes off the vehicle.
No recycling avalable in the UK, so batteries are being extracted from damaged vehicles and then just stored in containers.
EV insurance premiums are higher and expected to increase, with the rise in the number of EV writte offs.
The balance between pluses and minuses seems to be changing and more people appear to know about these matters.
How can the 2030 UK ban be implemented in reality ?
The first Aston Martin EV, now scheduled for introduction in 2025.
Have just been readng an article in todays business coverage about Pendragon and thier deal with BYD.
An oversupply of electric cars was explained, now that so many manufacturers are offering EV models for sale.
That supply/demand balance has also affected used EV values, with the biggest faller being Jaguar’s I-Pace, which is a quarter cheaper than it was 12 months ago.
This chart might be of interest.
SpeckledJim said:
Styling, image, character are still the differentiators....
When a dowdy-looking mid-level user-chooser company car is doing 0-60 in 3.1 seconds, the key reason for spending five times as much is not going to be down to the powertrain.
I don't believe that you can separate powertrain from image and character. Electric vehicles are IMHO devoid of character, and the little green plate or other virtue signalling features do very little for image. Another misunderstanding in your post is that powertrains are primarily about doing 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. Any electric drivetrain appears to be capable of that, and it maybe a useful party trick. Performance cars are not 'about' 0-60 times or maximum speed. They are about the whole experience. ICE power trains, in the cars we are talking about, are about style, image and character, particularly the latter, the sound and the way in which power and torque are delivered. Any Newport Pagnell era AM is a better drive than a Tesla, and 0-60 times are irrelevant. When a dowdy-looking mid-level user-chooser company car is doing 0-60 in 3.1 seconds, the key reason for spending five times as much is not going to be down to the powertrain.
The whole charge to EV, apart from inner city use, particularly by heavy vehicles, buses and taxis, is just a politically driven scam, causing far greater environmental damage than fossil fuels. Happily there is now, quite rightly, some pushback occurring in Germany which I expect to grow over time. The 'Greens' have been shown to be complete hypocrites.
Another snippet of information which might amuse you is that if you are planning a high end car dealership, one requirement is for a Quarantine Bay, which is a large open bay to hold an EV at risk of catching fire.
cardigankid said:
SpeckledJim said:
Styling, image, character are still the differentiators....
When a dowdy-looking mid-level user-chooser company car is doing 0-60 in 3.1 seconds, the key reason for spending five times as much is not going to be down to the powertrain.
I don't believe that you can separate powertrain from image and character. Electric vehicles are IMHO devoid of character, and the little green plate or other virtue signalling features do very little for image. Another misunderstanding in your post is that powertrains are primarily about doing 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. Any electric drivetrain appears to be capable of that, and it maybe a useful party trick. Performance cars are not 'about' 0-60 times or maximum speed. They are about the whole experience. ICE power trains, in the cars we are talking about, are about style, image and character, particularly the latter, the sound and the way in which power and torque are delivered. Any Newport Pagnell era AM is a better drive than a Tesla, and 0-60 times are irrelevant. When a dowdy-looking mid-level user-chooser company car is doing 0-60 in 3.1 seconds, the key reason for spending five times as much is not going to be down to the powertrain.
The whole charge to EV, apart from inner city use, particularly by heavy vehicles, buses and taxis, is just a politically driven scam, causing far greater environmental damage than fossil fuels. Happily there is now, quite rightly, some pushback occurring in Germany which I expect to grow over time. The 'Greens' have been shown to be complete hypocrites.
Another snippet of information which might amuse you is that if you are planning a high end car dealership, one requirement is for a Quarantine Bay, which is a large open bay to hold an EV at risk of catching fire.
A 'special' car used to have a N/A V12, 2WD, and a manual gearbox. Now, and certainly by the near future, it tends to be 4 wheel drive, has a twin-turbo 6 or 8, hidden behind an 8 or 9-speed auto. With each generation of 'improvements' the driver becomes less engaged in the process.
Yet the manufacturers are selling a lot more of these cars now than they ever used to. Power and speed are up. Involvement is way down. And the market appears to be loving it.
If so desired, an EV could be programmed to deliver a turbo-like throttle lag, uneven power delivery, and gear-change hiccups, but I think all the manufacturers are happy that the market doesn't actually want those things.
I know you're a huge fan of ICE (as am I, sometimes), so just keep your car, look after and enjoy it, and just let the EV revolution happen to other people.
EV fires are an interesting one. They're much more serious than ICE fires, but they happen a lot less frequently. Score-draw?
Media reports about Germany and the EU reaching agreement concerning the anticipated 2035 ban on the sale of new IC engine cars.
"Vehicles with internal combustion engines can still be newly registered after 2035, if they fill up exclusively with CO2-neutral fuels,"
https://europe.autonews.com/environmentemissions/e...
SpeckledJim said:
If so desired, an EV could be programmed to deliver a turbo-like throttle lag, uneven power delivery, and gear-change hiccups, but I think all the manufacturers are happy that the market doesn't actually want those things.
Think how fast an EV with (say) a four speed gearbox would go... and involvement for the sporting driver as opposed to just 'press and go'.Simpo Two said:
SpeckledJim said:
If so desired, an EV could be programmed to deliver a turbo-like throttle lag, uneven power delivery, and gear-change hiccups, but I think all the manufacturers are happy that the market doesn't actually want those things.
Think how fast an EV with (say) a four speed gearbox would go... and involvement for the sporting driver as opposed to just 'press and go'.ICE only has a gearbox because it needs one in order to work properly. Not to add fun or involvement or anything else. It's a just a big, heavy, draggy, expensive, fragile, necessary evil.
A small number of enthusiastic drivers want and enjoy a manual gearbox. The same people tend to also like older stuff. For the most part they've already abandoned the new car market. ICE or EV, no real difference - there are almost no manual performance cars left, because they don't sell. Because people who buy sports cars and supercars generally can't be arsed with one. Sad, but true.
An ICE with an 8 or 9 speed auto is a loooong way from a 4 or 5 speed manual. It's pretty much as close to an EV driving experience as the manufacturers can reasonably make an ICE. And that's the way the market apparently wants it.
Ferrari has already completely given up on you. Every other manufacturer is either already the same, or will be soon.
There are plenty of great ICE manual driving experiences out there to choose from. And they're being diluted year on year, because it's not what sells. Probably your dream manual car has already been built. Maybe decades ago. Just buy that one.
(yes, Pedants Corner, Porsche 2-speed...
_SpeckledJim said:
An EV delivers max torque from zero revs to max revs. It doesn't need a 4 speed gearbox. Such a thing would slow you down when you (pointlessly) changed gear and it would sap power all the time through increased friction._
“ It also provides paddle shifters that change through fake gears to provide a more visceral and traditional driving experience.Kew says that it’s actually helpful in terms of understanding what’s going on at the road surface and that “downshifting” with the intent of engine braking into a corner feels intuitive and easy to use. It even allows him to make mistakes and he loves that. It engages on a different level than most EVs.”
https://www.carscoops.com/2022/09/hyundais-n-visio...
Jon39 said:
Have just been readng an article in todays business coverage about Pendragon and thier deal with BYD.
An oversupply of electric cars was explained, now that so many manufacturers are offering EV models for sale.
That supply/demand balance has also affected used EV values, with the biggest faller being Jaguar’s I-Pace, which is a quarter cheaper than it was 12 months ago.
This chart might be of interest.
MrsLT also previously owned a first generation Mercedes hybrid E class when these were launched. This was a piece of crap from a reliability perspective (random power-loss issues/failure to transition from battery to ICE), and caused her to decide to bin the idea of having a hybrid/EV until the technology matured/someone we thought knew what they were doing launched one, so it was back to ICE until the Porsche came along.
There may be an inevitability to EV but, if there is, with personal experience suggesting that even MB and Porsche struggle with electrification, I doubt we’ll buy any manufacturer’s first attempt at an EV unless it were clearly a re-body of exiting tech from elsewhere. But then you’re back to the whole question of whether the market will accept such vehicles as being sufficiently individual/authentic.
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