Can Aston Martin Survive in the Electric Vehicle Era?
Discussion
BiggaJ said:
Nice to see some people are standing up against this march towards insanity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1b7nH8L5Ko&t=...
Thanks for sharing this! Hats off to those residents.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1b7nH8L5Ko&t=...
Jon39 said:
Not the same as another recent (think) House of Lords report, about the dissapointedly slow take up, of air source heat pumps.
Their conclusion, was that there had been insufficient Government communication, about the benefits of heat pumps.
Fools.
Best thing is to keep quiet about the benefits;
Cost a fortune to install, pay for bigger radiators, expensive to run and maintain.
Does work really well in the summer, to heat your home and hot water.
In the winter, radiators might reach 50°F, so put jumpers and gloves on and dream about the gas boiler you threw away..
When the appliance ages, it will become noisy, so provide ear defenders to your neighbours.
Jon, I can't tell if your post is serious or tongue-in-cheek?!?Their conclusion, was that there had been insufficient Government communication, about the benefits of heat pumps.
Fools.
Best thing is to keep quiet about the benefits;
Cost a fortune to install, pay for bigger radiators, expensive to run and maintain.
Does work really well in the summer, to heat your home and hot water.
In the winter, radiators might reach 50°F, so put jumpers and gloves on and dream about the gas boiler you threw away..
When the appliance ages, it will become noisy, so provide ear defenders to your neighbours.
Edited by Jon39 on Wednesday 29th March 12:16
I heat and cool my 20x40 detached garage (ground floor and finished loft) with a Mitsubishi air source heat pump. The technology on these has massively improved over the last 10 years, and this one has no trouble keeping the garage warm when outside temps drop to -30 C (about -22 F).
I heat my home in Canadian winters with a ground source heat pump, primarily through radiant in-floor and secondarily with forced air. It heats my domestic water at the same time, and has no difficulty in providing water temperatures of 115 F. I use a propane boiler to supplement when it gets below -10 C (about 14 F) outside. Said heat pump also provides air conditioning in the summer. Mine is open loop (ground water) as I was fortunate to have an excellent flow rate when I drilled my well; considerably cheaper to install than closed loop (pipes with coolant/glycol).
Piston Ted said:
BiggaJ said:
Nice to see some people are standing up against this march towards insanity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1b7nH8L5Ko&t=...
Thanks for sharing this! Hats off to those residents.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1b7nH8L5Ko&t=...
This is excellent.
quench said:
Jon, I can't tell if your post is serious or tongue-in-cheek?!?
A modicum of seriousness, quench.
For the House of Lords politicians to say, the reason people in the UK are not installing enough heat pumps to meet 'targets', is entirely due to poor government communication, is a complete diversion. Mind you, it is very common here now when one of our politicians is interviewed, for a question to be asked, but then the answer is to a different question. They dare not say, I will not answer your question, but try to divert attention away from it. When the interviewer interjects, the answer is then to another unrelated matter. This is now so annoyingly common, presumably the blatantly obvious tactic must be taught in politicians' schools. -
Yes, my understanding is that the ground source type of heat pumps work very much better.
The problem in the UK though, is the majority of homes do not even have medium size gardens. Modern new build homes have such small gardens, that it is really just a patch of ground, you could hardly describe it as a garden. Many people in cities live in flats and apartments, so again a ground source heat pump is impossible on an individual basis.
Cost here is crucial as well. Although overall, the UK is a successful and wealthy nation, it does appear that many citizens live 'pay cheque to pay cheque'. A ground source installation must cost a considerable sum of money. The lure of PCP for a new SUV on the driveway, might be more tempting for many people.
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 30th March 08:08
quench said:
Jon39 said:
Not the same as another recent (think) House of Lords report, about the dissapointedly slow take up, of air source heat pumps.
Their conclusion, was that there had been insufficient Government communication, about the benefits of heat pumps.
Fools.
Best thing is to keep quiet about the benefits;
Cost a fortune to install, pay for bigger radiators, expensive to run and maintain.
Does work really well in the summer, to heat your home and hot water.
In the winter, radiators might reach 50°F, so put jumpers and gloves on and dream about the gas boiler you threw away..
When the appliance ages, it will become noisy, so provide ear defenders to your neighbours.
Jon, I can't tell if your post is serious or tongue-in-cheek?!?Their conclusion, was that there had been insufficient Government communication, about the benefits of heat pumps.
Fools.
Best thing is to keep quiet about the benefits;
Cost a fortune to install, pay for bigger radiators, expensive to run and maintain.
Does work really well in the summer, to heat your home and hot water.
In the winter, radiators might reach 50°F, so put jumpers and gloves on and dream about the gas boiler you threw away..
When the appliance ages, it will become noisy, so provide ear defenders to your neighbours.
I heat and cool my 20x40 detached garage (ground floor and finished loft) with a Mitsubishi air source heat pump. The technology on these has massively improved over the last 10 years, and this one has no trouble keeping the garage warm when outside temps drop to -30 C (about -22 F).
I heat my home in Canadian winters with a ground source heat pump, primarily through radiant in-floor and secondarily with forced air. It heats my domestic water at the same time, and has no difficulty in providing water temperatures of 115 F. I use a propane boiler to supplement when it gets below -10 C (about 14 F) outside. Said heat pump also provides air conditioning in the summer. Mine is open loop (ground water) as I was fortunate to have an excellent flow rate when I drilled my well; considerably cheaper to install than closed loop (pipes with coolant/glycol).
cardigankid said:
quench said:
Jon39 said:
Not the same as another recent (think) House of Lords report, about the dissapointedly slow take up, of air source heat pumps.
Their conclusion, was that there had been insufficient Government communication, about the benefits of heat pumps.
Fools.
Best thing is to keep quiet about the benefits;
Cost a fortune to install, pay for bigger radiators, expensive to run and maintain.
Does work really well in the summer, to heat your home and hot water.
In the winter, radiators might reach 50°F, so put jumpers and gloves on and dream about the gas boiler you threw away..
When the appliance ages, it will become noisy, so provide ear defenders to your neighbours.
Jon, I can't tell if your post is serious or tongue-in-cheek?!?Their conclusion, was that there had been insufficient Government communication, about the benefits of heat pumps.
Fools.
Best thing is to keep quiet about the benefits;
Cost a fortune to install, pay for bigger radiators, expensive to run and maintain.
Does work really well in the summer, to heat your home and hot water.
In the winter, radiators might reach 50°F, so put jumpers and gloves on and dream about the gas boiler you threw away..
When the appliance ages, it will become noisy, so provide ear defenders to your neighbours.
I heat and cool my 20x40 detached garage (ground floor and finished loft) with a Mitsubishi air source heat pump. The technology on these has massively improved over the last 10 years, and this one has no trouble keeping the garage warm when outside temps drop to -30 C (about -22 F).
I heat my home in Canadian winters with a ground source heat pump, primarily through radiant in-floor and secondarily with forced air. It heats my domestic water at the same time, and has no difficulty in providing water temperatures of 115 F. I use a propane boiler to supplement when it gets below -10 C (about 14 F) outside. Said heat pump also provides air conditioning in the summer. Mine is open loop (ground water) as I was fortunate to have an excellent flow rate when I drilled my well; considerably cheaper to install than closed loop (pipes with coolant/glycol).
I also am of the opinion that its a fairly useless tech in the UK with the level of insulation our typical homes have. Im sure in Canada they build houses through necessity to a much better insulation level, but here in the UK air source heat pumps simply pump money out of the window.
The Gov should be pushing insulation first and foremost as that keeps you warm in winter and cool in summer.
Jon39 said:
For the House of Lords politicians to say, the reason people in the UK are not installing enough heat pumps to meet 'targets', is entirely due to poor government communication, is a complete diversion. Mind you, it is very common here now when one of our politicians is interviewed, for a question to be asked, but then the answer is to a different question. They dare not say, I will not answer your question, but try to divert attention away from it. When the interviewer interjects, the answer is then to another unrelated matter. This is now so annoyingly common, presumably the blatantly obvious tactic must be taught in politicians' schools. -
Yes, my understanding is that the ground source type of heat pumps work very much better.
The problem in the UK though, is the majority of homes do not even have medium size gardens. Modern new build homes have such small gardens, that it is really just a patch of ground, you could hardly describe it as a garden. Many people in cities live in flats and apartments, so again a ground source heat pump is impossible on an individual basis.
Cost here is crucial as well. Although overall, the UK is a successful and wealthy nation, it does appear that many citizens live 'pay cheque to pay cheque'. A ground source installation must cost a considerable sum of money. The lure of PCP for a new SUV on the driveway, might be more tempting for many people.
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 30th March 08:08
In densely populated areas you need to think of district heating centers for distributing heat pump based heating to individual homes as well as apartment buildings. If you have a neighbourhood consisting of 100 apartments / 10 buildings, this is certainly an attractive scenario for investing into such a district heating center (with heat pumps). All buildings could get connected to a pipeline system with two pipelines for the water to circulate – one with warm water (30 ~ 35 degrees Celsius or (86°F ~ 95°F) and one with recirculation. This is going to be standard in Scandinavia, Netherlands and many countries. Requires reasonably good building insulation and large heating panels / floor heating.
Jon39 said:
A modicum of seriousness, quench.
For the House of Lords politicians to say, the reason people in the UK are not installing enough heat pumps to meet 'targets', is entirely due to poor government communication, is a complete diversion. Mind you, it is very common here now when one of our politicians is interviewed, for a question to be asked, but then the answer is to a different question. They dare not say, I will not answer your question, but try to divert attention away from it. When the interviewer interjects, the answer is then to another unrelated matter. This is now so annoyingly common, presumably the blatantly obvious tactic must be taught in politicians' schools. -
Yes, my understanding is that the ground source type of heat pumps work very much better.
The problem in the UK though, is the majority of homes do not even have medium size gardens. Modern new build homes have such small gardens, that it is really just a patch of ground, you could hardly describe it as a garden. Many people in cities live in flats and apartments, so again a ground source heat pump is impossible on an individual basis.
Cost here is crucial as well. Although overall, the UK is a successful and wealthy nation, it does appear that many citizens live 'pay cheque to pay cheque'. A ground source installation must cost a considerable sum of money. The lure of PCP for a new SUV on the driveway, might be more tempting for many people.
Edited by Jon39 on Thursday 30th March 08:08
Points taken, Jon, Cardigan and Adam, re: insulation. It's easy to forget that our insulation standards here are much higher out of necessity, but I agree that encouraging proper insulation, even in warmer climates, would be a good idea. Indeed it will critical if the powers that be continue to force us away from fossil fuels. Also, I forget how spread out we are here compared to the Old World, and as pointed out, space is a consideration for most ground source installations.
Insulation comes at a price, though... and therein lies the long-established 'benefit' of fossil fuels: they are (still relatively) cheap and energy dense no matter what the prevailing conditions (weather, sun etc), and so it is easy to use them freely and wastefully, as we have, to heat draft and poorly insulated spaces. Conversely, that is still the difficulty in selling a lot of 'green' technology: it's expensive, in many situations much less energy dense, and often much more dependent on Mother Nature's fickle ways.
I've been impressed with my heat pumps, though, as I said. Even the air source unit copes well with our harsh climate; the technology has come a long way. Yes, they were more expensive to install than 'conventional' HVAC, and yes, they use electricity. But over time, I am making up the difference in not having to burn as much fossil fuel, and I can convince myself, at least where I live, that typically more than 2/3 and often 3/4 of the electricity I use is generated from nuclear or hydroelectric sources. Maybe I wouldn't have gone down that route if my electricity prices were more expensive than they are. As it stands, both they and propane prices have risen since I built, so it's really a case of everything is more expensive, and the (relative) long-term advantage of my choice remains.
Insulation comes at a price, though... and therein lies the long-established 'benefit' of fossil fuels: they are (still relatively) cheap and energy dense no matter what the prevailing conditions (weather, sun etc), and so it is easy to use them freely and wastefully, as we have, to heat draft and poorly insulated spaces. Conversely, that is still the difficulty in selling a lot of 'green' technology: it's expensive, in many situations much less energy dense, and often much more dependent on Mother Nature's fickle ways.
I've been impressed with my heat pumps, though, as I said. Even the air source unit copes well with our harsh climate; the technology has come a long way. Yes, they were more expensive to install than 'conventional' HVAC, and yes, they use electricity. But over time, I am making up the difference in not having to burn as much fossil fuel, and I can convince myself, at least where I live, that typically more than 2/3 and often 3/4 of the electricity I use is generated from nuclear or hydroelectric sources. Maybe I wouldn't have gone down that route if my electricity prices were more expensive than they are. As it stands, both they and propane prices have risen since I built, so it's really a case of everything is more expensive, and the (relative) long-term advantage of my choice remains.
M1AGM said:
I had a quote 2 years ago to go gshp. Think it was around £40k.
Wow, that is a lot of money. I wonder how much of that would be taken up by the excavation and installation for the closed loop hardware? I put mine in 13 years ago for about $30K CAD all in (about £18K in today's money), but I saved a lot by being able to go open loop.One would expect as the technology becomes more widely used that prices would come down, but who am I kidding - they are rising on pretty much everything, especially since COVID.
Edited by quench on Thursday 30th March 18:28
This extract is from a link in the Trade Marks topic.
'The electrification is anticipated to commence this year, with the arrival of the V8-powered plug-in hybrid powertrain in the Valhalla, and could be bolstered by a mild hybrid system in the updated DB11, thought to be renamed DB12.'
Do we all know about the Mercedes-Benz 48 volt mild hybrid system, which is now fitted ot many of their IC models ?
A video closely reflecting our topic title.
A description of the difficulties and huge expense, faced by legacy motor manufacturers, as they transition to EVs.
It is thought of all manufacturers, only BYD and Tesla are now making profits from EV production.
https://youtu.be/2dM8C2mtY8k
Jon39 said:
A video closely reflecting our topic title.
A description of the difficulties and huge expense, faced by legacy motor manufacturers, as they transition to EVs.
It is thought of all manufacturers, only BYD and Tesla are now making profits from EV production.
https://youtu.be/2dM8C2mtY8k
You have to spend money to make money
https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/elect...
And as you mentioned Ford, they are shaking up the whole dealership model with no haggle pricing, mandating that to stay as a Ford dealership in the long term they concentrate on EV's because Ford is discontinuing making ICE engines, and that the dealership has to install public charging stations.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/6/23496960/ford-e...
NMNeil said:
Jon39 said:
A video closely reflecting our topic title.
A description of the difficulties and huge expense, faced by legacy motor manufacturers, as they transition to EVs.
It is thought of all manufacturers, only BYD and Tesla are now making profits from EV production.
https://youtu.be/2dM8C2mtY8k
You have to spend money to make money
https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/elect...
And as you mentioned Ford, they are shaking up the whole dealership model with no haggle pricing, mandating that to stay as a Ford dealership in the long term they concentrate on EV's because Ford is discontinuing making ICE engines, and that the dealership has to install public charging stations.
https://www.theverge.com/2022/12/6/23496960/ford-e...
With our free enterprise philosophy in the UK, the home motor manufacturers probably have few defences, apart from good products and lower prices.
Stand to attention. On your guard, the Chinese EVs are coming.
March 2023 is the first month showing new registrations for BYD.
34 electric cars.
MG (no more British than alligators) have sold 20,679 cars so far this year, which is a 49% increase from Jan to Mar 2022.
Is this going to be a repeat of Japanese motorcycles, which caused such a rapid decline in British motorcycle manufacturing ?
There is at present an open sector in the EV market, being lower cost battery electric cars.
That presumably will be the market that BYD are going for. Wonder if their prices might initially be 'held down', to increase the pace of market share gain ?
Stratstones are BYD's retailers.
An SUV with 'bells and whistles', yours Sir, for £375 monthly.
Power 60kWh; claimed range 261 miles.
......................................................................................................................
I have refreshed this post because, would you believe it, I have just spotted another Chinese EV manufacturer who has entered the UK market.
GWM ORA = 188 sales in March.
We can see who this car is aimed at.
Stellantis (Fiat 500) watch out.
https://gwmora.co.uk/
DYNAMIC ENERGETIC ELECTRIC
Does friendship shape the journey, or does the journey shape the friendship?
Meet your new car-panion
Ready to level up your driveway with an all-new 100% electric ORA Funky Cat?
GET THE GOSS, FIRST
Drive a GWM ORA Funky Cat.
I must ask a passing teenager to interpret. -
( And we thought AML had some wacky marketing phrases. )
£359 monthly with a free £1,000 charger wallbox.
Or just change the decade and the 'invading' cars come from Japan or S. Korea.
Now that Japanese and Korean cars are expensive and very good, it's to China that we turn for shiny new cheap wheels as we run out of money.
In the recession of the 2030s, by which time Chinese cars are expensive and very good (and everywhere) maybe we'll be resorting to cars from Russia or North Korea?
Now that Japanese and Korean cars are expensive and very good, it's to China that we turn for shiny new cheap wheels as we run out of money.
In the recession of the 2030s, by which time Chinese cars are expensive and very good (and everywhere) maybe we'll be resorting to cars from Russia or North Korea?
AstonV said:
Ford's going to go belly up as well with the EV push. They deserve what they get!
Along with others who are phasing out ICE engine production?Audi by 2033;
Bentley by 2030;
GM by 2030;
Fiat by 2030;
Honda by 2040;
Hyundai and Kia by 2040;
Lotus by 2022;
Mercedes by 2030;
Rolls Royce by 2030;
VW by 2040;
Volvo by 2030.
Going to really limit the choice of cars at the dealership after they all go into bankruptcy
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