Man After My Own Heart ... The Future Isn't Electric
Discussion
kurokawa said:
just to add
Battery EV is not the future just as steam engine was not the future when it replaced horse, as ICE was not the future when it replaced steam engine
Battery technology will evolve a lot over the future just like ICE had evolve in the past. Battery will be here until something better more viable available.
There were plenty of electric vehicles over a hundred years ago, but they were gradually replaced by ICE.Battery EV is not the future just as steam engine was not the future when it replaced horse, as ICE was not the future when it replaced steam engine
Battery technology will evolve a lot over the future just like ICE had evolve in the past. Battery will be here until something better more viable available.
Pixelpeep 135 said:
metathesiophobia is a thing. Get help 
Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
If it was purely metathesiophobia there would be no need to ban ICE, just as horses and steam engines haven't been banned. The reluctance to move wholesale to electric vehicles is because they are not yet the best option for all purposes. They will continue to improve of course, but so will ICE given the chance.Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
As recently as the 1980s electric trucks were delivering milk long after ICE trucks had taken over for other purposes. Metathesiophobia on the part of dairies? No, just a question of what was appropriate and fortunately electric vehicles were never banned.
murphyaj said:
What Mr Reichman actually seems to be saying is that battery electric cars are not viable in the long term, specifically current generation lithium based chemical batteries, and I think that's far less controversial than is being made out.
That's very controversial indeed as far as the EcoNazis are concerned. What other high profile auto industry insider has dared to say as much?murphyaj said:
Even EV enthusiasts largely agree that the battery is the weak point of current generation models, being large, heavy, expensive, relatively slow to charge, with a limited lifespan and relying on significant quantities of rare earth minerals.
So why buy one? Why not wait until they are perfect, then buy one? murphyaj said:
.... you're still reliant on a finite supply of fossil fuels.
It is a very long way from being finite - I remember the 1970's when we were all told that fuel would run out before 2000 and the world would be overpopulated and starving. BS then, and BS now. murphyaj said:
Bio-fuels sound like a great way to keep our V8s and V12s running into the future, and believe me I want that as much as any of you, but again it's not a perfect solution. Growing fuel crops means taking fertile land away from food production, which affects fuel prices. Staple crops have spiked in price recently pushing parts of the developing world to the brink of famine.
Corruption and disorganisation are what are pushing parts of the world into famine. Not to mention the unnecessary war currently raging in Ukraine for which the West is far from blameless. Fuel crops have nothing to do with it. Bio-fuels and E-fuels seem less of a challenge than battery technology.murphyaj said:
I just hope people can learn to get over the tribalism that appears to have developed here and focus on an objective consideration of the various options, because we'll probably end up with a mix of all of them for different use cases.
You are right, of course, but the tribalism is a direct result of the one-sided bully-boy approach of politicians and the media, the pundits and the protesters who want to drive us into EV's. EV's are good for buses, which run from terminus charging point to terminus charging point, though not as good in that respect as trams, which don't even need batteries. They are good for autonomous city centre taxis. They are good for trains. They are worse than useless for the mass of the population, who have nowhere to charge them, and even if they had, would not have the infrastructure to deliver the necessary power, and never will have. Pixelpeep 135 said:
metathesiophobia is a thing. Get help
Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
Only because it is 'enshrined in legislation'. Until it becomes patently obvious to everyone that it won't work as a general solution for personal transportation. EV's are not pollution free, they come with grave environmental consequences, they have serious shortcomings in the form of range, charging time, charging infrastructure, weight and battery life. EV is a political choice, not a technological leap forward, and like most political initiatives, likely to fail when faced with reality. I won't be funding this lunacy by buying one. Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
Dr Jekyll said:
Pixelpeep 135 said:
metathesiophobia is a thing. Get help
Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
If it was purely metathesiophobia there would be no need to ban ICE, just as horses and steam engines haven't been banned. The reluctance to move wholesale to electric vehicles is because they are not yet the best option for all purposes. They will continue to improve of course, but so will ICE given the chance.Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
As recently as the 1980s electric trucks were delivering milk long after ICE trucks had taken over for other purposes. Metathesiophobia on the part of dairies? No, just a question of what was appropriate and fortunately electric vehicles were never banned.
It's not a Boris thing, a good few countries have agreed that currently, EVs are the best option we currently have.
Sorry that some armchair scientists/tin foil wearing/found an article from an obscure website/company who are on the backfoot with EV technology for their road cars think otherwise.
My faithful daily driver, now 22 years old (in the family for 19 years) is still running well, very comfy and the V6 can punch when required, but even so, I plan to retire it next year and buy a new car. All that I need is a luxury 4 door saloon.
Choosing an EV seemed a possibility, but another government car recommendation raises a first doubt. Motor manufacturers continually claiming Zero Emissions introduces another suspicion. The early adopters are paying much higher prices, than equivalent IC models. There are now 32 million cars registered for road use in the UK. If the changeover to EV after 2030 really gathers momentum, will I be at the back of the queue when millions of car users are trying to recharge?
I then thought perhaps a petrol hybrid might be a more sensible choice for me. No range or charger availability concerns, during our longer journeys.
That idea was placed in doubt though, when I read of a few hybrid cars having battery failure after just 8 years use. Surely just carry on by using the petrol engine, but apparently no. If the battery voltage is too low, it seems that the petrol engine cannot be started. The cars were scrapped, because of the huge cost of parts and labour to replace the battery packs.
M-B will have a new luxury saloon next year, probably one of their last IC engine cars. It will have an electric motor in the power train, but intended I think just to fill in for turbo lag. One of those cars should see me out, and I can watch what happens to the grand EV experiment to replace 32 million UK cars.
cardigankid said:
Pixelpeep 135 said:
metathesiophobia is a thing. Get help
Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
Only because it is 'enshrined in legislation'. Until it becomes patently obvious to everyone that it won't work as a general solution for personal transportation. EV's are not pollution free, they come with grave environmental consequences, they have serious shortcomings in the form of range, charging time, charging infrastructure, weight and battery life. EV is a political choice, not a technological leap forward, and like most political initiatives, likely to fail when faced with reality. I won't be funding this lunacy by buying one. Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
macdeb said:
^^^^ With him. Not to mention the huge carbon footprint to make the damn things (plus disposal). Hybrids I get, turn to electric when driving through a city for instance, but fully electric? Get a grip and stop fooling yourselves.
There is so much hysteria, fake news and myth busted to death statements in this thread it fries my noodle.if people spent half as much time researching their opinions/what they heard in the pub/what Dave told them than they do spouting them to the world as facts, this thread wouldn't even exist.
We've had 2 EVs at home for the last 5 years (i3 & e-niro), and covered over 100k miles in various weathers, journeys and usage. Tip runs, daily commute, driving the elderly inlaws around, terrorising hot hatch owners, road trips, the lot. We've gone a year without any home charging. - i feel any opinion i voice is based on some actual, first person, real world experiences. I'm a petrol head, have been since i was old enough to speak - we own a petrol car as well, so i feel it literally is the best of both worlds.
You will never replicate the experience of a performance ICE, 6/8 cylinder on WOT with the roof down going through twisty country roads on a summers evening with an EV - but that's not the point, how often do we really spend driving purely for pleasure ? 90% of the time we are moving in congested roads just trying to get to work - that's when the EV comes in.
Cake & eat it. Cheap as chips commute (280 miles for £8 in electric) instant power when needed, comfortable and effortless for the 90% use and something fun and Enginey for the 10% of time you fancy a drive.
also remember, as we shift to more renewable energy supplying our grid, EVs are only going to get better and cleaner. the ICE has had around 100 years of 'development' and how much energy created actually makes it to the wheels?
Short term pain, long term gain - have a read - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
Pixelpeep 135 said:
There is so much hysteria, fake news and myth busted to death statements in this thread it fries my noodle.
if people spent half as much time researching their opinions/what they heard in the pub/what Dave told them than they do spouting them to the world as facts, this thread wouldn't even exist.
.... Cake & eat it. Cheap as chips commute (280 miles for £8 in electric) instant power when needed, comfortable and effortless for the 90% use and something fun and Enginey for the 10% of time you fancy a drive.
if people spent half as much time researching their opinions/what they heard in the pub/what Dave told them than they do spouting them to the world as facts, this thread wouldn't even exist.
.... Cake & eat it. Cheap as chips commute (280 miles for £8 in electric) instant power when needed, comfortable and effortless for the 90% use and something fun and Enginey for the 10% of time you fancy a drive.
I have just read on the internet that EVs are now as cheap as chips and certainly going to be the future for personal transport.
So pleased to have received this assurance. I can now trade-in my polluting Aston Martin and obtain a zero emissions Kia Nani 50kW for about £30,000. That does appear expensive, but probably just a price list error. The car might turn out to be too small, although it does seem very heavy, but my local fish fryer Dave, told me that he had to pay far more for a decent size EV, than he does for potatoes.
macdeb said:
cardigankid said:
Pixelpeep 135 said:
metathesiophobia is a thing. Get help
Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
Only because it is 'enshrined in legislation'. Until it becomes patently obvious to everyone that it won't work as a general solution for personal transportation. EV's are not pollution free, they come with grave environmental consequences, they have serious shortcomings in the form of range, charging time, charging infrastructure, weight and battery life. EV is a political choice, not a technological leap forward, and like most political initiatives, likely to fail when faced with reality. I won't be funding this lunacy by buying one. Reality is - if you want a new car after 2035. Electric will be your future. You'll be dead before anything else ground breaking becomes mainstream.
AM said:
What Reichman believes to be the future is hydrogen fuel cells and biofuel, with the possibility of similar technologies emerging. Porsche has been moving in the direction of biofuels, and it’s not the only one. According to Reichman, he thinks these new propulsion technologies could result in a “Golden Age” of automotive design as they allow for greater engineering freedom. Hey, if it means future vehicles don’t all look like jellybeans on wheels, we’re all for it.
It's great that he has an opinion, but his position falls flat when he discusses alternatives. The alternatives have to be part of the answer if you're going to discuss maintaining private vehicle ownership and low emissions.HFC. Yep, great in some contexts. But end to end, you get about 15% of the energy back once you've gone from electricity generation to the wheels. Not great... Oh and HFC are full of metal catalysts, which like all catalysts eventually get damaged by pollutants and contamination (see JCB comments on HFC in industrial context). And the fuel tanks weight about 80kg for 5kg (50kWh) of hydrogen because of the immense pressure. Oh, and you need a battery because HFC don't provide peak power easily!
Biofuels? Non-starter. Growing crops to burn is incredibly inefficient use of land and energy and water.
Porsche aren't using biofuels, they're using synthetic fuels. Immense amounts of energy and carbon feedstock either from waste or from air. Probably an option for aviation, probably an option for expensive ICE toys. Incredibly unlikely as a widespread manufacturing option.
Are batteries without harm? No, of course not. Neither is say nuclear. But on balance, they're the best options we have.
Or we abandon cars altogether?
Oilchange said:
Waitrose delivery HGVs use all renewable biofuels so not a non starter it just hasn't been fully adopted. There would have to be a push by the government but it could happen.
A bit like 20 years ago someone saying going all electric is a non starter because of lack of infrastructure!
They're not all.A bit like 20 years ago someone saying going all electric is a non starter because of lack of infrastructure!
Some use CNG from waste methane gas (digesters and sewage). Hard to scale up when you have a feedstock that is waste.
Similarly McDonald's recycling about 85% of their oil and grease products from cooking, only meets about 35% of their fuel needs for HGV. It's a great project, and to be commended, but producing more waste is hardly the answer!
It's easy to cast aside biofuels with a curt comment.
If the government wanted vehicles to run on them I suspect it would be easier for industry and infrastructure to adapt than to electric vehicles. Someone might, in that event, come over and say 'electric vehicles are a non starter'. They're not of course but you get my drift.
For the record I think hybrids are the future, electric to get going the short distance to the highway, then biofuels etc take over for the long haul, then the recharged electric for the final mile or two.
If the government wanted vehicles to run on them I suspect it would be easier for industry and infrastructure to adapt than to electric vehicles. Someone might, in that event, come over and say 'electric vehicles are a non starter'. They're not of course but you get my drift.
For the record I think hybrids are the future, electric to get going the short distance to the highway, then biofuels etc take over for the long haul, then the recharged electric for the final mile or two.
Edited by Oilchange on Wednesday 20th April 10:52
Oilchange said:
It's easy to cast aside biofuels with a curt comment.
If the government wanted vehicles to run on them I suspect it would be easier for industry and infrastructure to adapt than to electric vehicles. Someone might, in that event, come over and say 'electric vehicles are a non starter'. They're not of course but you get my drift...
Ignorance is bliss, I guess.If the government wanted vehicles to run on them I suspect it would be easier for industry and infrastructure to adapt than to electric vehicles. Someone might, in that event, come over and say 'electric vehicles are a non starter'. They're not of course but you get my drift...
We already have biofuels in general use. The petrol and diesel at the pump is a biofuel. But again, we only have limited ability to produce that feedstock within the practical restrictions of growing crops or producing waste.
Algae has long been suggested as the solution, but I'm just to see algae biofuels at industrial scale. There appears to be a push to use them for other products like pigmentations and low-volume goods.
What you have to bear in mind is how much industry is being pushed by government policy. If they wanted it, it would happen.
And I suspect days of running 'cheap' electric into cars is numbered. Tax tax tax. Has to come from somewhere...
eta
what I meant by biofuel wasn't crude based it was 'renewable'
And I suspect days of running 'cheap' electric into cars is numbered. Tax tax tax. Has to come from somewhere...
eta
what I meant by biofuel wasn't crude based it was 'renewable'
Oilchange said:
What you have to bear in mind is how much industry is being pushed by government policy. If they wanted it, it would happen.
And I suspect days of running 'cheap' electric into cars is numbered. Tax tax tax. Has to come from somewhere...
eta
what I meant by biofuel wasn't crude based it was 'renewable'
I agree. The amount of money that’s been pushed in to ev’s has caused them to evolve, like many things would with that resource And I suspect days of running 'cheap' electric into cars is numbered. Tax tax tax. Has to come from somewhere...
eta
what I meant by biofuel wasn't crude based it was 'renewable'
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