AM V8 on Top Gear tonight - 8pm BBC2!
Discussion
JP. said:
..... Park a Carrera S next to a Vantage and watch the crowds!! "Watch a 911 parked in London...hardly any passers-by even look".
AoN
Look we are at different ends scale for the reason for buying a SPORTS CAR to me it is about dynamic performance and driver involvement that’s where i get my adrenaline rush from. Where i understand your type of SPORTS CAR ownership i don’t respect it. I actually find it quite sad that good sports cars don’t get used as intended.
Ps. I hope people look at you in your car
What a load of arse, why are you not in a caterham then?
rich1231 said:
..... Park a Carrera S next to a Vantage and watch the crowds!! "Watch a 911 parked in London...hardly any passers-by even look".
AoN
Look we are at different ends scale for the reason for buying a SPORTS CAR to me it is about dynamic performance and driver involvement that’s where i get my adrenaline rush from. Where i understand your type of SPORTS CAR ownership i don’t respect it. I actually find it quite sad that good sports cars don’t get used as intended.
Ps. I hope people look at you in your car
What a load of arse, why are you not in a caterham then?
The caterham is a one trick pony, the 911 has an all round game and i can use it with the family and not have to leave it in the garage.
JP the aston will draw a croud becuase IMO its gorgeous.
But I wouldnt give a fig about that. It would make me smile evey time I walked out of the house and saw it.
Just like I do with my car and I would with a 997 but the smile would be bigger with a V8.
Just becasue the 997 slightly better dinamicaly does not mean the AM is a bad car. probably most of us would not notice anyway.
One of the most fun cars I have driven was a Fiat Cinquequento* sporting. fabulous laugh. wounder how that would compare in comparison with a 997
In the end it does not matter that much and saying people buy a AM just to pose is unfair.
Why can't you just be happy with your car and happy with other peoples choices instead of insulting them as just posers.
But I wouldnt give a fig about that. It would make me smile evey time I walked out of the house and saw it.
Just like I do with my car and I would with a 997 but the smile would be bigger with a V8.
Just becasue the 997 slightly better dinamicaly does not mean the AM is a bad car. probably most of us would not notice anyway.
One of the most fun cars I have driven was a Fiat Cinquequento* sporting. fabulous laugh. wounder how that would compare in comparison with a 997
In the end it does not matter that much and saying people buy a AM just to pose is unfair.
Why can't you just be happy with your car and happy with other peoples choices instead of insulting them as just posers.
pesty said:
JP the aston will draw a croud becuase IMO its gorgeous.
But I wouldnt give a fig about that. It would make me smile evey time I walked out of the house and saw it.
Just like I do with my car and I would with a 997 but the smile would be bigger with a V8.
Just becasue the 997 slightly better dinamicaly does not mean the AM is a bad car. probably most of us would not notice anyway.
One of the most fun cars I have driven was a Fiat Cinquequento* sporting. fabulous laugh. wounder how that would compare in comparison with a 997
In the end it does not matter that much and saying people buy a AM just to pose is unfair.
Why can't you just be happy with your car and happy with other peoples choices instead of insulting them as just posers.
I have never said the Aston is a bad car or that people shouldn’t buy one i actually love the DB9 and i like the Aston and have/am considering buying one, my point has always been to examine the AMV8 against the 911S from an engineering performance viewpoint as everyone has hyped it up as a 911 killer, i am just disappointed as many journo's have expressed that it has come up quite short. Other people have then commented that it doesn’t matter because the car look fantastic (which i agree it does) and it will get more attention. So i am not calling them poseurs they are really doing that themselves.
Ps. I think ill wait for the supercharged version and handling pack.
JP. said:
...Other people have then commented that it doesn’t matter because the car look fantastic (which i agree it does) and it will get more attention. So i am not calling them poseurs they are really doing that themselves....
Your point seems to be that a sports cars aesthetics should not be considered as desirable a virtue as outright performance, and that anyone who does is obviously a poseur.
Well I beg to differ. For sake of arguement lets liken the Porsche to say Madonna (bare with me here). We all know she's getting a bit long in the tooth but she keeps on re-inventing herself regularly. Each time she still looks more or less the same, but offers slightly better dynamics and a more polished performance. We are all stunned by this rejuvenation and feel it can't possibly continue, but it does. increadible! A feat of dedication and unsurpassed professionalism.
Now my wife (heading for trouble here) isn't as dynamic and doesn't have quite the performance characteristics of Madonna (though she often exceeds my handling ability). However, shes a bit younger, has class, style and I think shes absoloutley stunning. A bit more in the AMV8V mould then, and I'd choose her over Madonna every day of the week.
Am I therefor a posuer when I walk down the street with her? I don't think so, I'm just happy I made the right decision for me (Wife & AMV8V).
JP. said:
JP the aston will draw a croud becuase IMO its gorgeous.
But I wouldnt give a fig about that. It would make me smile evey time I walked out of the house and saw it.
Just like I do with my car and I would with a 997 but the smile would be bigger with a V8.
Just becasue the 997 slightly better dinamicaly does not mean the AM is a bad car. probably most of us would not notice anyway.
One of the most fun cars I have driven was a Fiat Cinquequento* sporting. fabulous laugh. wounder how that would compare in comparison with a 997
In the end it does not matter that much and saying people buy a AM just to pose is unfair.
Why can't you just be happy with your car and happy with other peoples choices instead of insulting them as just posers.
I have never said the Aston is a bad car or that people shouldn’t buy one i actually love the DB9 and i like the Aston and have/am considering buying one, my point has always been to examine the AMV8 against the 911S from an engineering performance viewpoint as everyone has hyped it up as a 911 killer, i am just disappointed as many journo's have expressed that it has come up quite short. Other people have then commented that it doesn’t matter because the car look fantastic (which i agree it does) and it will get more attention. So i am not calling them poseurs they are really doing that themselves.
Ps. I think ill wait for the supercharged version and handling pack.
Sorry if you use that argument you are an idiot as you didnt buy a 996tt or gt3.
JP. said:
..... Park a Carrera S next to a Vantage and watch the crowds!! "Watch a 911 parked in London...hardly any passers-by even look".
AoN
Look we are at different ends scale for the reason for buying a SPORTS CAR to me it is about dynamic performance and driver involvement that’s where i get my adrenaline rush from. Where i understand your type of SPORTS CAR ownership i don’t respect it. I actually find it quite sad that good sports cars don’t get used as intended.
Ps. I hope people look at you in your car
Hey JP....you are obviously a bright guy.....but how can you miss the point so spectacularly. Please read my original post again if you will.
Many, Many people buy expensive and capable cars purely to be seen in or because they are fast but 'easy' (and that applies more to the 911 than any other car on the road). That's not why I buy them .....but my point about the crowds was to illustrate how 'ordinary' the 911 had become in many peoples' minds.
I had a 360 Modena and drove the balls off it at Silverstone, Goodwood and The Bedford Autodrome. I had a 996 and pushed it to the limit at Rockingham and Brands. But during all that time I had a 968 Club Sport to learn what to do in one of the best dynamic packages ever produced at any price. I use the cars I own and I use them well, but I am in a very small minority of owners and the manufacturers (who run businesses) know that.
I like to own and be seen in nice cars sure, but my everyday 'park-it-anywhere' transport is a 115,000 mile Scenic.....so vanity isn't my main priority!!
Fortunately I'm not looking for your 'respect' ...or anyone elses for that matter.....I'm just trying to point out that the 'best' car is not always the most desirable car.....my 996 was fantastic but ownership was too easy, too ordinary and I never gave it a second glance after I had parked it.......not so with a Vantage.
But if dynamic performance is the main criteria for purchase as you contend.....then buy the Noble M400 and run rings around all of them....and for less money!
But again we come back to the fact that to get close to the potential of any of these cars on the public roads....means that someone (probably an innocent someone) will die. So it's back to the subjective things again, where the Aston scores so well.
AoN
PS Derestrictor....I didn't mention putting the £30k more expensive and gorgeous 430 next to the Vantage...I said the Carrera S. The Ferrari is clearly a fantastic looking car, but a different level. The point I was trying to make was that when I get my V8 I won't be wishing I was in one of the others.
Actually, AoN emphasises something I hadn't really thought about at all and something which makes accelerative but ultimately slow Lotae & Caterfields the attraction they are, namely, the limitation aka congestion.
Maybe the Aston does have a blend of je ne sais quoi which, whilst it may lack the Carrera S's last tenth around Croft or whatever, congeals into a subtler blend of appreciation and yes, dynamics, which are actually more accessible and certainly appreciable, in particular that noise!
Also, I respect AoN's experience, after all, the chap has purchased the tee shirts...
Oh bugger!
Maybe the Aston does have a blend of je ne sais quoi which, whilst it may lack the Carrera S's last tenth around Croft or whatever, congeals into a subtler blend of appreciation and yes, dynamics, which are actually more accessible and certainly appreciable, in particular that noise!
Also, I respect AoN's experience, after all, the chap has purchased the tee shirts...
Oh bugger!
[/quote]
I had a 360 Modena and drove the balls off it at Silverstone, Goodwood and The Bedford Autodrome. I had a 996 and pushed it to the limit at Rockingham and Brands. But during all that time I had a 968 Club Sport to learn what to do in one of the best dynamic packages ever produced at any price. I use the cars I own and I use them well, but I am in a very small minority of owners and the manufacturers (who run businesses) know that.
[/quote]
ok, i accept you use your cars well and i don’t mean to insult you or criticize your purchase decision, and i know its not very British to criticize and we and should accept what were given but that as never sat too comfortably with me, so i would question Aston as to why the AMV8 as come up short if only to make them produce better cars which in turn will make Porsche ect make better cars and so us the people who hand over the hard earned foldies will get a better product.
I had a 360 Modena and drove the balls off it at Silverstone, Goodwood and The Bedford Autodrome. I had a 996 and pushed it to the limit at Rockingham and Brands. But during all that time I had a 968 Club Sport to learn what to do in one of the best dynamic packages ever produced at any price. I use the cars I own and I use them well, but I am in a very small minority of owners and the manufacturers (who run businesses) know that.
[/quote]
ok, i accept you use your cars well and i don’t mean to insult you or criticize your purchase decision, and i know its not very British to criticize and we and should accept what were given but that as never sat too comfortably with me, so i would question Aston as to why the AMV8 as come up short if only to make them produce better cars which in turn will make Porsche ect make better cars and so us the people who hand over the hard earned foldies will get a better product.
Thanks Derestrictor, I think you put into words what I was trying to say.....it really is about so much more than tenths of a second......car ownership for us petrolheads is about so much more.....stupid, maybe....but that's life and it is what makes it fun!
I still think that I will buy another 968 Club Sport sometime soon as it is the most amazing blend of useability, performance and communication. If you get the chance, do 70 laps of Goodwood in a good one, I challenge anyone not to have a smile on their face at the end of each lap. Sure, you won't see which way the R500 or the M400 has gone, but the car will tell you about every millimetre of track you have covered and you will understand what it's saying! You'll come away very satisfied indeed.
Hey Papazola, what a brilliant analogy, I couldn't (and didn't) put it better. A great description and of course lots of 'brownie points' with your wife....genius!!
AoN
I still think that I will buy another 968 Club Sport sometime soon as it is the most amazing blend of useability, performance and communication. If you get the chance, do 70 laps of Goodwood in a good one, I challenge anyone not to have a smile on their face at the end of each lap. Sure, you won't see which way the R500 or the M400 has gone, but the car will tell you about every millimetre of track you have covered and you will understand what it's saying! You'll come away very satisfied indeed.
Hey Papazola, what a brilliant analogy, I couldn't (and didn't) put it better. A great description and of course lots of 'brownie points' with your wife....genius!!
AoN
[quote=JP
ok, i accept you use your cars well and i don’t mean to insult you or criticize your purchase decision, and i know its not very British to criticize and we and should accept what were given but that as never sat too comfortably with me, so i would question Aston as to why the AMV8 as come up short if only to make them produce better cars which in turn will make Porsche ect make better cars and so us the people who hand over the hard earned foldies will get a better product.[/quote]
Thanks JP....I didn't really take it as a criticism...I just didn't think my point had been taken properly.
As to why the V8 has 'come up short' ...in pure dynamic terms of course... when compared to the 997 S, the answer is simple; Making a car as good as the 997 is an amazingly difficult thing to do (otherwise Proton and Kia would do it). It has taken Porsche 40 years, a vast some of money (development money which has now been fully recouped), the best engineers and a little bit of luck!
Unfortunately you can't just produce the best cars 'because you want to'. That is why the AM V8 is such an amazing achievement....straight 'out of the box' and so nearly there. The 360 was superb, but by all accounts the 430 is way better.....why, because Ferrari, like all manufacturers ar still learning.
The costs involved in car development are huge now (I believe Ford spent £1 billion developing the Focus' suspension) and Aston is a business. I for one will celebrate the car and can't wait for mine to arrive.....my first ever Aston....and I know I'm lucky.
AoN
ok, i accept you use your cars well and i don’t mean to insult you or criticize your purchase decision, and i know its not very British to criticize and we and should accept what were given but that as never sat too comfortably with me, so i would question Aston as to why the AMV8 as come up short if only to make them produce better cars which in turn will make Porsche ect make better cars and so us the people who hand over the hard earned foldies will get a better product.[/quote]
Thanks JP....I didn't really take it as a criticism...I just didn't think my point had been taken properly.
As to why the V8 has 'come up short' ...in pure dynamic terms of course... when compared to the 997 S, the answer is simple; Making a car as good as the 997 is an amazingly difficult thing to do (otherwise Proton and Kia would do it). It has taken Porsche 40 years, a vast some of money (development money which has now been fully recouped), the best engineers and a little bit of luck!
Unfortunately you can't just produce the best cars 'because you want to'. That is why the AM V8 is such an amazing achievement....straight 'out of the box' and so nearly there. The 360 was superb, but by all accounts the 430 is way better.....why, because Ferrari, like all manufacturers ar still learning.
The costs involved in car development are huge now (I believe Ford spent £1 billion developing the Focus' suspension) and Aston is a business. I for one will celebrate the car and can't wait for mine to arrive.....my first ever Aston....and I know I'm lucky.
AoN
JP. said:
I had a 360 Modena and drove the balls off it at Silverstone, Goodwood and The Bedford Autodrome. I had a 996 and pushed it to the limit at Rockingham and Brands. But during all that time I had a 968 Club Sport to learn what to do in one of the best dynamic packages ever produced at any price. I use the cars I own and I use them well, but I am in a very small minority of owners and the manufacturers (who run businesses) know that.
[/quote]
ok, i accept you use your cars well and i don’t mean to insult you or criticize your purchase decision, and i know its not very British to criticize and we and should accept what were given but that as never sat too comfortably with me, so i would question Aston as to why the AMV8 as come up short if only to make them produce better cars which in turn will make Porsche ect make better cars and so us the people who hand over the hard earned foldies will get a better product.[/quote]
Oh thats all right then, I must remember to ask your permission next time i buy a car to see if you think Im going to use it properly.
Thank god you are here JP.
Why is everybody under the impression that the AMV8 is miles away from the Carrera S around the track ???
IMHO, the 'average' driver will be able to obtain the same(ish) times in both.
Unless you can get the best from a Porsche, which IMO put's you in the higher percentiles of driving skill, you will not see a great time difference.
In fact, I lay down the gauntlet
IMHO, the 'average' driver will be able to obtain the same(ish) times in both.
Unless you can get the best from a Porsche, which IMO put's you in the higher percentiles of driving skill, you will not see a great time difference.
In fact, I lay down the gauntlet
:J: said:
Why is everybody under the impression that the AMV8 is miles away from the Carrera S around the track ???
IMHO, the 'average' driver will be able to obtain the same(ish) times in both.
Unless you can get the best from a Porsche, which IMO put's you in the higher percentiles of driving skill, you will not see a great time difference.
In fact, I lay down the gauntlet
I think the impression that we were given on top gear is not so much that the fact that AMV8 was 6 seconds slower over 1:30 dash which is a lot, its more the reasons why. May (captain slow) who’s a massive Aston fan, if you’ve ever seen the old top gear programme when he’s driving the "vantage" from the seventies he said it was is favourite car of all time, but even he said the AMV8 felt heavy and cumbersome compared to the feel and feedback of the 911, Hampster also said the AMV8 was a disappointing drive in this regard as well and even JC was really going to opt for the M6. Its this dynamic feel and communication that the 911 as always had and makes it the journo bench mark and why autocar voted it drivers car of the year, this is were the Aston seems to have come up short on, it doesn’t matter if you are attacking a sweeping right hander at 60mph and the stig at 90mph you will still get that dynamic feel, feedback and communication that makes you feel at one with the car and puts a smile on your face. I know some of you have different emotive reasons for buying the Aston and don’t care as much about the driving aspect so Please don’t take this observation as an attack on your decision to buy the Aston and I’m not trying to tell you to buy a 911 i'm just discussing the Aston as it has been presented to us.
To be honest, I take the Top Gear times with a pinch of salt, it may well be 6 seconds quicker, but I would expect this from a driver who races a 911 and has had massive exposure to 911 over time.
Maybe if he had as much experience with AMV8 as opposed to just jumping in it, he could have got a quicker time, same for the M6, just to keep the conversation fair
Plus, the conditions were hardly beneficial to learning a new car !!
Not really suprised at the outcome of the T.G. test either.
1/ 2 of the 3 own a Porsche.
2/ From watching May drive on previous episodes, I wouldn't trust his idea of what driving dynamics are.
3/ Who listens to Clarkson anyway ??? The bloke can't even change gear in a Vanquish properly, lol...
P.S. I have driven both 911 (admittedly, not Carrera S) and AMV8 so my opinions are not unfounded, unlike some of the posts
>> Edited by :J: on Friday 18th November 13:00
Maybe if he had as much experience with AMV8 as opposed to just jumping in it, he could have got a quicker time, same for the M6, just to keep the conversation fair
Plus, the conditions were hardly beneficial to learning a new car !!
Not really suprised at the outcome of the T.G. test either.
1/ 2 of the 3 own a Porsche.
2/ From watching May drive on previous episodes, I wouldn't trust his idea of what driving dynamics are.
3/ Who listens to Clarkson anyway ??? The bloke can't even change gear in a Vanquish properly, lol...
P.S. I have driven both 911 (admittedly, not Carrera S) and AMV8 so my opinions are not unfounded, unlike some of the posts
>> Edited by :J: on Friday 18th November 13:00
The Stig used to be Perry McCarthy - former F1 Driver and test driver for Benetton, Arrows and Williams.
Ben Collins - single seat and sportscar racer - is now The Stig. Although it is rumoured that other drivers stand in (like Peter Dumbreck) from time to time when filming is needed and Ben is not available.
But even so....the conditions (wet...hence traction from engine over rear wheels) and the ceramic brakes will have made a much greater difference than the familiarity of the brand.
Surely the real question, if we are to examine the times on that 'artificial' test, is why was the mega-powerful M6 with all the years of development from BMW's M-division, soooo slow??!!
AoN
Ben Collins - single seat and sportscar racer - is now The Stig. Although it is rumoured that other drivers stand in (like Peter Dumbreck) from time to time when filming is needed and Ben is not available.
But even so....the conditions (wet...hence traction from engine over rear wheels) and the ceramic brakes will have made a much greater difference than the familiarity of the brand.
Surely the real question, if we are to examine the times on that 'artificial' test, is why was the mega-powerful M6 with all the years of development from BMW's M-division, soooo slow??!!
AoN
allornothing said:
Surely the real question, if we are to examine the times on that 'artificial' test, is why was the mega-powerful M6 with all the years of development from BMW's M-division, soooo slow??!!
AoN
Too much weight, as you know the key is getting the bhp produced on to the road that’s where a well sorted chassis will always win through except in a straight line American muscle car type race.
Another point to consider.....how objective are these Top Gear tests anyway. It's an entertainment programme not a consumer test....and it is designed to please / upset in equal measure. Controversy and witty banter are the order of the day and ultimately ratings (and consequently money in the presenters' pockets) is of far greater interest than pure objectiveness. Clarkson can get away with saying that "co*ks buy Porsches" because ultimately car buying is subjective. For example I know that the BMW 330d is a superb package, but I just don't want one.....in fact I don't want a BMW at all, despite their obvious abilities.
In Autocar's Driver's car of 2005 the S was 3 seconds faster than the V8 at Rockingham (inner track) at 81.4 secs, but it was also only 1 second quicker than the Boxster S!.....however, it was 5 seconds slower than the M400. So which is the 'best'......?? Who knows,....we know which is the fastest, but the figures just don't matter when they are that close. It's how you feel when you drive it.
If you want to enter a production car race or you want the 'bragging rights' down the pub, then you buy the Carrera....if not then you have to consider all of the other factors....and looks, noise, feel and exclusivity are big ones for many people. BTW I would also say that my 911 salesman was the worst I had come across at any dealership in 20 years.....but the car did a great job for what I wanted it for.
AoN
In Autocar's Driver's car of 2005 the S was 3 seconds faster than the V8 at Rockingham (inner track) at 81.4 secs, but it was also only 1 second quicker than the Boxster S!.....however, it was 5 seconds slower than the M400. So which is the 'best'......?? Who knows,....we know which is the fastest, but the figures just don't matter when they are that close. It's how you feel when you drive it.
If you want to enter a production car race or you want the 'bragging rights' down the pub, then you buy the Carrera....if not then you have to consider all of the other factors....and looks, noise, feel and exclusivity are big ones for many people. BTW I would also say that my 911 salesman was the worst I had come across at any dealership in 20 years.....but the car did a great job for what I wanted it for.
AoN
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