Aston Martin advice from Bamford Rose independent specialist

Aston Martin advice from Bamford Rose independent specialist

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Discussion

Trek930

126 posts

124 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
I bought my DBS outside of the Aston dealership network so was particularly careful about the state of the CCM's. Jaguar at the time didnt do a car with CCM's so I got the salesman to call Aston up. I did my own research as well and the phrases "should last the lifetime of the car" and "80,000+ miles" came up regularly. Slightly disconcerting that Aston think my car will only last 80K, maybe they know ill stick it in a hedge before I do! My car is on 32K and the discs look fine, Im unaware how many sets of pads its been through. The 8K Ive put on her has included a couple of trackdays. When I wash her I drench the brakes in water but Im very careful not to use any chemical wheel cleaner as I was told this is the biggest risk to the CCM rotor as it can etch the surface. I drive the car about 1 mile back to my garage, everything seems fine. Maybe its because ive driven to get the car washed so the discs are warm so any water evaporates off. CCM discs create very little dust so theyd have to be filthy to cause that sort of wear wouldnt they?!

As a solution Im pretty sure Mike told me BR can fit steel replacements that are still epic.

Speculatore

1,928 posts

192 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Trek930 said:
As a solution Im pretty sure Mike told me BR can fit steel replacements that are still epic.
They certainly work on 'Blofeld'....

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

114 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Little Donkey said:
We've seen many pictures of cars on here covered in snow foam which obviously, have then been jet washed. So it's probably fair to say that most give the wheels a good wash thinking just soapy water is fine. So I have a question:

Should contact with water be avoided, full stop - or - is it OK to clean them and then use an air gun or some other form of high powered air flow to dry them?

There'll be a few on here changing their cleaning regimes, for sure.
Strictly speaking the advice is don't get them wet, if they do become wet dry out for, say, 12 hours before use.

Meticulous care will extend service life, misuse (chemical cleaners) and abuse (track days) could cause rapid wear rates, but this is all subjective to who is driving. Like a trackday with a well known blagger behind the wheel will have a different end outcome to brake life after a trackday of car in hands of novice.

The key for trackdays is don't continually stand on the brakes if heat fade is encountered.
The key for washing is don't drive with drenched discs
Extremes of both of these conditions will accelerate wear rates

Driving with drenched discs can be compared to practice of taking your engine to redline when cold - the affects of doing so might not catch you out today but will most likely catch somebody out tomorrow.


Zod

35,295 posts

215 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
So I shouldn't drive my car in heavy rain? Really?

Laser Sag

2,860 posts

200 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Zod said:
So I shouldn't drive my car in heavy rain? Really?
I would imagine that driving in the rain the brakes will be being dried by the airflow , heat and normal operation. If I am understanding what is being said it is that when you wash your car the carbon disks can become saturated and don't have any of the above methods going on to keep the water away and then you could have problems.

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

114 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Trek930 said:
Im unaware how many sets of pads its been through.
You raise something we see a fair bit of Neil, the dark side!

We find there is little incentive for owners to stamp the service book declaring that in the car's history its had a new pad set fitted - obvious reason is that its a stamp of doom nudging ever closer to disc renewal that will no doubt be a leverage point come trade-in time. This is nothing of a revelation, its a fact that parts wear out. But more often the stamp doesn't happen and the real history of the car has been lost meaning that if disc surface finish looks OK, the only real way to understand remaining disc life is to weigh them.

Here comes the next murky practice, which we have seen a number of times too.
If a set of steel discs reach minimum service limit at same time a new pad set is needed, often the discs are ridged so putting a new pad set to them is not wise even if the owner wants to run low discs with meaty pads. So new discs and pads at 'acceptable' price are fitted without too much fuss. Not so in the ceramic world. The pad consumption rate cant be monitored because the book was never stamped at pad change, lets say the disc is actually weighed and its nearing service limit and will unlikely last another pad set after having unknown number of prior pad sets, yet a pad set is still thrown at the car to 'move it on its way', and more often than not the 'way' is into the hands of a new owner who then has to pick up the pieces.

We have 3 DB9 V12 engines in for rebuild at present due to failed small-end bearing causing piston slap causing bore wear - this is the classic V12 'tick' everyone talks about. Had a guy last week who had saved for years to buy his dream car (DB9), didn't use it much after purchase from the independent dealer, finally he did start to use it but warranty already expired, only to find after our inspection (he brought it in because making strange sound he knew was bad news) that the engine had a death rattle and is about to expire. Its then really, really tough to give these guys the news that to fix the car its another £15k rebuild cost on top of the purchase price which they had saved their life to acquire.
You can argue to death the reason why some V12 engines at 30k miles rattle and are dead yet some are beating strong at 100k - its all down to past history in the hands of owners who might have misused or abused and conceal history (misuse or abuse could be unwitting). Misuse and abuse translates into a big spend for somebody to recover and that somebody is a naive purchaser / owner, if threads like this can make the naive 'informed' that is what this is all about.

There will be folk who say they have 20k from a pad set, there are (i know from first hand experience) owners who have changed pads at 5k. The 20k pad set guy must be driving sooooo gingerly its girlie unreal - great, as prospective purchaser this is the car you want to buy. Problem is how do you ever know a pad set change wasn't 'lost' in the service history and the owner is telling the truth?

There will be many folk protective of the condition of their ceramic brakes, fine, we all know the reasons why and it is a savvy approach to ownership - the point here is to make the naive 'savvy' and avoid a spend which destroys their faith in the brand.

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

114 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Zod said:
So I shouldn't drive my car in heavy rain? Really?
not at all, you clearly haven't read an earlier post.

BamfordMike said:
whoami said:
What about when you drive the car in the rain??
there is no real path of rain or splash water onto the disc.

should water mist be sucked up through cooling ducts will simply be vaporised by heat

the good point your question raises is wading through water - problem. But this isn't a problem brand specific, is problem all cars with ceramic brakes.

steel brakes suffer problems, on vanquish we replace more discs and pads due to corrosion than through being worn out. The steel brakes last around the same as the mileage i stated ceramics wear out at. Only reason corrosion or wear rate problems isn't spoken or bothered about on steels is the relatively low price vs ceramic to replace.

Quinny

15,798 posts

223 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
The question I'd be asking is..."are carbon brakes, and the associated exorbitant costs really required on a road car"..??

I know what my answer would besmile

mikey k

12,707 posts

173 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Quinny said:
The question I'd be asking is..."are carbon brakes, and the associated exorbitant costs really required on a road car"..??

I know what my answer would besmile
yes what the wise one said!

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

114 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
Quinny said:
The question I'd be asking is..."are carbon brakes, and the associated exorbitant costs really required on a road car"..??

I know what my answer would besmile
good point - i know my answer too, and is why we fit the BR steel upgrade and not CCM's to cars like Jessica, Blofeld and Teaspoon - but in the make up of trump card super car wars you are nowhere without CCM's, and they do look fab, and if you are the last of the 'late brakers' on a track day at warp factor 9, they will save your bacon over steels.

We pounded Jessica around Goodwood and rockingham all day recently with the 6 piston 380mm diameter steel brakes fitted which we stood on 'hard and late' and they didn't leave us wanting anymore without the car having full harness and roll cage and we are entering a GT4 race. In reality the 6 piston 380mm Vantage S steel brakes are brakes that can intimidate even a seasoned track driver (intimidate means after standing on pedal hard only to realise you could of braked a lot later if you had the guts).

The price of CCM's is indeed very high, some is going to OEM for no other reason than aftersales profit going to OEM, but most is a real spend to their supplier for carrying product liability if something went wrong with a relatively new tech material fitted across low percentage of cars in the marketplace




sukh_m

1,324 posts

149 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
BamfordMike said:
Never spray chemical wheel cleaner onto wheels
Have to admit I've used the wheel cleaner (spray form) on the wheels a few times (and snow foam), I'm sure paddy said it was fine but obviously you think differently Mike confused

Laser Sag

2,860 posts

200 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
From a few things I have read the cleaners won't be a problem for the wheels but they are a problem for the ceramic brakes and trying to clean the wheels on the car with chemicals without getting them on the brakes is going to practically impossible.

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

114 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
sukh_m said:
BamfordMike said:
Never spray chemical wheel cleaner onto wheels
Have to admit I've used the wheel cleaner (spray form) on the wheels a few times (and snow foam), I'm sure paddy said it was fine but obviously you think differently Mike confused
Smoke 1 cigarette - probably no health detriment, smoke a million - probably harmful to health, but where is trigger point between the 2?

one exposure, probably no, but too much chemical wheel cleaner = this



so if you don't want to ever chance your disc looking like this, don't smoke the one is what i would say.

we wash wheels off the car, OK for us, we are garage with ramps, a detailer at his / your home and wheel removal is pain in the ass. The potentially harmful state to avoid is fluid on disc mixing with dust to form harmful paste. We know if discs are dried from drenching and used this is fine. Perhaps its OK for the chemical they use to spend short time on disc before being removed by water, but that's not something i could comment on but i would not allow a car in my care to be exposed to either.


mikey k

12,707 posts

173 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
The problem is when they are left to soak in, then not rinsed out or dried properly
Another point on the same issue
One rear and one front caliper on my last roadster were replaced under warranty because the previous owner had left some form of wheel cleaner on to soak a few too many times. It had caused the chrome plating on the caliper pistons to flake off right past the piston seal :eek3:

Quinny

15,798 posts

223 months

Friday 26th September 2014
quotequote all
mikey k said:
yes what the wise one said!
I didn't get where I am today by not being wisenono





By the way.....where am I??confused

biggrin

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

114 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
The last post from us contained a health warning, sorry, unfortunately so does this.


A little touch of Envy may be experienced if reading any further.


Fella popped into the workshop, "got this Rapide" he said, "great car, but its not quite as Rapeeede as i would hoped it was going to be. Its a fine car to lump the Mrs, kids and dogs around in, but when i'm solo and want to put the hammer down, sad to say its me left feeling let down"

"I'm reasonably familiar with the complaint" i said.

"anything you can do" he said.

"well" i said.
"There is fella called lance!"
Its a familiar story to those in the know.
We take a std V12 motor at 510bhp, we add high lift cams, tuned equal length primary pipes, 200 cell cats, 3 way exhaust valve / noise control switch and N400 style power flaps.

"sounds fab" he said, "what difference does it make?"

Night and day transformation" i said, "take it for a test drive prior to handing over the hard earned and try before you buy, i'm reasonably sure you will buy" i said.

"I will do that" he said, "that's the motor, what about the gearbox? You see it feels quite lazy at shifting".

"Easy" i said,
We can re map the trans control unit to shift as if it were a DBS, the rapide was calibrated to shift up low / lazy to get the emissions pass / CO2 number the factory needed. But we don't need to worry about that now, with the 570 bhp motor and the DBS shift maps its gonna be more rapeeede than a rapid thing...

"im in" he said

"sounds like a spot of me" he said, "how long will it take?"

"4 days" i said

"see you in 4 days" he said and his man took him home.

lance with 4 seats here we come!


4 days of the dream factory in the making and out pops a snorting Rapide.
In normal D mode the car was as it was before, fairly docile GT mile muncher and even if the loud pedal was pressed hard, more or less as he was std, he wouldn't make the Mrs or kids cry. But pop him into sport mode and in kicks lance 570 bhp, DBS shift maps and 7500 rpm of Spitfire howl. 2 cars at the press of a button.

4 days later a smiling owner pops out of his mans lift at our workshop.

"come on, throw me the keys for that road test" he said.

"Bamford rose loop sir" i said

"oh yes" he said

"accompanied or solo" I said

"as much as i have heard my eyes will pop out on stalks from accompanied, i will fly this one solo" he said.

And fly he did, several rounds of the loop sounded like a circling spitfire in the distance, roaring closer getting louder then getting ever so faint but still the V12 grumbling could be heard no matter where he was. In lazy D std mode the rapide kicked out about 85db at peak, snorting sport mode he was 102 db at peak.

"that's the ticket" he said when he came back, "the Rapide i always wanted".

"good-o" i said. "if we see you back for service that would be great, otherwise enjoy your fine beast" i said.





"yes" he said,
"well" he muttered
"i" he said whilst thinking
"you see, i have this Zagato" he said.
"thing is, fab car and all, could just do with being a bit quicker, doesn't really excite me as much as i hoped it would, cant do anything for the old fella could you".

"well" i said.
"you see, there is fella called lance, don't suppose you've heard of him by chance?
We take a std V12 motor at 510bhp, we add high lift cams, tuned equal length primary pipes, 200 cell cats, 3 way exhaust valve / noise control switch and N400 style power flaps.

"sounds fab" he said "4 days by any chance?"

"tis the normal dream making duration" i said.

"i will take the Rapide, my man will bring you Zig" he said, and off he roared.





The engine fitted to all Zagato's is the same as any other 510 BHP DBS or V12V, but on test drive pre mods around the Bamford Rose loop, the Zig felt much more nimble, much more urgent than any std V12V we had ever driven. This is all due to the light weight body. It didn't feel the same delta different as GT4 V8 Vs road going car, but was somewhere between the 2. Im not sure official weight figures were released but by guessing is 100 or so KG lighter and it really is phenomenal what difference that makes. Prior to taking a spanner to the car we all thought that Lance was going to be eclipsed by the mean green Zig.

4 days of the dream factory in the making out pops a snorting Zig.

The obligatory sign off around the BR loop confirmed that 570 BHP in the Zig body was, well, SUPERCAR! I cant explain it any better than that. Some things just have to be experienced.

4 days later a smiling 'man' pops out of the Rapide to collect his masters Supercar.

"im taking it gingerly on the way home" he said looking a bit worried,"the old boy can open this one up at the weekend when he gets back, i can feel what you've done to the Rapide and i'm steering well clear of fully opening Zig up, but i'm sure my man will be in touch" he said.

In touch he was by text message at the weekend.

"well done son, the Zigs a spot of me now" he said.

A little touch of envy, oh yes.

I just have the sound of the new Zagato Spitfire soundtrack in the memory banks together with the most insane Bamford Rose loop ever.


Zod

35,295 posts

215 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
If you would give us a menu of costs, I might come along and see you. As things stand, I have no idea whether you'd be billing me £5K, £10K or £35K.

BamfordMike

1,192 posts

114 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
Zod said:
If you would give us a menu of costs, I might come along and see you. As things stand, I have no idea whether you'd be billing me £5K, £10K or £35K.
Good point, and nothing would be simpler than to update website and this thread with prices.

Thing is, have to be careful, we are being watched.

Had no end of project clients who found Bamford Rose website and this forum on their Mrs laptop / devices snooping round for prices no doubt. Not that they were under the cosh not to enhance their cars, simply that the same amount of dosh invested in the car would have to be 'invested' in bags, shoes and spa weekends.

Of course there are exceptions, Speculatore's Mrs and Y100's better half even belted their partners enhanced cars around the track, Mrs G even drove some very tidy lines when i was following for a bit!

For 510 to 570 BHP (all the kit mentioned in the post) is £6500+VAT
Here is the development power curves of Lance.




Some have seen this graph and said, do you know what, the delta of just the manifold will do me so remove cams - this is £5500+VAT, a decat and ECU remap is £500+VAT for 20BHP ish and a devilish soundtrack

Now please burn after reading!!!

Zod

35,295 posts

215 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
So £7800 all in?

Thank you.

mikey k

12,707 posts

173 months

Monday 29th September 2014
quotequote all
Quinny said:
mikey k said:
yes what the wise one said!
I didn't get where I am today by not being wisenono





By the way.....where am I??confused

biggrin
Parked up in a field in France no doubt frown