New BMW's getting stolen using blank BMW keys

[fraz1001]

Do you have to take both keys in to have the recall carried out?

[anonymous-user]

fraz1001 said:

Do you have to take both keys in to have the recall carried out?

Doubt it

[t8cmf]

fraz1001 said:

Do you have to take both keys in to have the recall carried out?

No, if you are referring to the update they just plug into the OBD to update.

The "key in the dash" issue doesn't come into effect until the original update is complete.

[fraz1001]

t8cmf said:

fraz1001 said:

Do you have to take both keys in to have the recall carried out?

No, if you are referring to the update they just plug into the OBD to update.

The "key in the dash" issue doesn't come into effect until the original update is complete.

Ok! I'm an ex renault tech and know from my days there if you programmed a new key or updated software all the keys had to be present or else they would no longer work

[DpchMd]

Zod said:

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Since when did people obtain new keys and recode them themselves?

You're the only one talking about recoding keys yourself.

Customer: "Damn I lost both my keys"

BMW: "er, yeah, about that update we did...."

[Zod]

DpchMd said:

Zod said:

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Since when did people obtain new keys and recode them themselves?

You're the only one talking about recoding keys yourself.

Customer: "Damn I lost both my keys"

BMW: "er, yeah, about that update we did...."

so you don't think BMW dealers can recode keys any more after the update?

[DpchMd]

Zod said:

so you don't think BMW dealers can recode keys any more after the update?

What on earth are you talking about? I suggest you re-read the past few pages because you're making a fool of yourself.

[NelsonR32]

Stuart Thompson said:

NelsonR32 said:

Stop being a troll. There are no issues with Audi's as they put decent security precautions in their cars unlike BMW.

I'd say you we're the one doing the trolling seeing this is a BMW forum.

So what conclusion would you come to after reading the 130+ pages on this thread?

Mr Bimmer was deliberately implying that Audi's have the same design flaw BMW with no evidence whatsoever in order to save his employer some face.

Edited by NelsonR32 on Sunday 25th November 22:39

[Mr Bimmer]

NelsonR32 said:

Stuart Thompson said:

NelsonR32 said:

Stop being a troll. There are no issues with Audi's as they put decent security precautions in their cars unlike BMW.

I'd say you we're the one doing the trolling seeing this is a BMW forum.

So what conclusion would you come to after reading the 130+ pages on this thread?

Mr Bimmer was deliberately implying that Audi's have the same design flaw BMW with no evidence whatsoever in order to save his employer some face.

Edited by NelsonR32 on Sunday 25th November 22:39

Sorry, but I thought you had read all the posts. I don't remember implying that Audi had the same problem. Thanks for reminding us about the Audi security hole though.


Take a look at this. You may enjoy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGsWCdg3fQU

Edited by Mr Bimmer on Sunday 25th November 23:44

[Zod]

DpchMd said:

Zod said:

so you don't think BMW dealers can recode keys any more after the update?

What on earth are you talking about? I suggest you re-read the past few pages because you're making a fool of yourself.

No, you are.

Are you so stupid that you think BMW have changed the firmware in such a way that dealers can no longer recode keys? They'd really not encode a "dealer mode"?

Edited by Zod on Monday 26th November 00:27

[DpchMd]

Zod said:

No, you are.

Are you so stupid that you think BMW have changed the firmware in such a way that dealers can no longer recode keys? They'd really not encode a "dealer mode"?

Edited by Zod on Monday 26th November 00:27

Hi Zod,

The supposed fix, that I'm questioning the existence of, prevents new keys from being attached to a car unless an existing key is in the dash. If BMW have a workaround for this, allowing them to attach keys to the car without replacing the entire module, they would need to provide details of this workaround to all independent dealers under EU law.

The fix would therefore be pointless.

So, back to my original point:

1) This fix doesn't exist or
2) BMW have a responsibility to provide details of this fix to the customer

I'm leaning towards option 1.

[youngsyr]

DpchMd said:

Zod said:

No, you are.

Are you so stupid that you think BMW have changed the firmware in such a way that dealers can no longer recode keys? They'd really not encode a "dealer mode"?

Edited by Zod on Monday 26th November 00:27

Hi Zod,

The supposed fix, that I'm questioning the existence of, prevents new keys from being attached to a car unless an existing key is in the dash. If BMW have a workaround for this, allowing them to attach keys to the car without replacing the entire module, they would need to provide details of this workaround to all independent dealers under EU law.

The fix would therefore be pointless.

So, back to my original point:

1) This fix doesn't exist or
2) BMW have a responsibility to provide details of this fix to the customer

I'm leaning towards option 1.

Surely someone on this thread knows an independent dealer with the kit to reprogramme keys and can test whether their update does what Mr Bimmer is claiming?

With all the rumours and counter-rumours, seems to me that it's the only way to answer the question once and for all.

[Zod]

DpchMd said:

Zod said:

No, you are.

Are you so stupid that you think BMW have changed the firmware in such a way that dealers can no longer recode keys? They'd really not encode a "dealer mode"?

Edited by Zod on Monday 26th November 00:27

Hi Zod,

The supposed fix, that I'm questioning the existence of, prevents new keys from being attached to a car unless an existing key is in the dash. If BMW have a workaround for this, allowing them to attach keys to the car without replacing the entire module, they would need to provide details of this workaround to all independent dealers under EU law.

The fix would therefore be pointless.

So, back to my original point:

1) This fix doesn't exist or
2) BMW have a responsibility to provide details of this fix to the customer

I'm leaning towards option 1.

It will be 2. It could not be anything else. I don't see what's so complicated about this. The car will either need a code from HQ or will need to be connected to HQ.

[DpchMd]

youngsyr said:

Surely someone on this thread knows an independent dealer with the kit to reprogramme keys and can test whether their update does what Mr Bimmer is claiming?

With all the rumours and counter-rumours, seems to me that it's the only way to answer the question once and for all.

Indeed, it would be great if someone could test an updated vehicle.

[BMW3s6]

My car was dropped of this morning for an update, also getting a free valet, tax disc holder and some recall work carried out that I was not aware off, replacement of the ignition coils and battery cable!

Thanks to bmw coopers in chelmsford! Massively happy with them so far and they also will get my service work too

[Rotten Egg]

r999 said:

That's just a user-selectable setting via iDrive - at least it is on many models. The settings are stored separately for each key.

I knew that

Cheers

[r999]

DpchMd said:

Hi Zod,

The supposed fix, that I'm questioning the existence of, prevents new keys from being attached to a car unless an existing key is in the dash. If BMW have a workaround for this, allowing them to attach keys to the car without replacing the entire module, they would need to provide details of this workaround to all independent dealers under EU law.

I'm not so sure about that.

I quote this from a security forum:

"The claim that europe's law makers require the OBU to allow Key reprogramming is of course nonsense; they require unencumbered access to diagnostic data so that any car-shop can repair your car, no one requires BMW to omit a re-keying protection. "

I cannot guarantee the truth of that, but it seems very likely that it's correct. And it seems even more likely that EU law makes no reference whatever to the highly specific point we are now dealing with, i.e. the presence or absence of an existing key while reprogramming. Reequring an existing key to be present would in no way prevent an independent dealer doing anything to the car.

[youngsyr]

r999 said:

DpchMd said:

Hi Zod,

The supposed fix, that I'm questioning the existence of, prevents new keys from being attached to a car unless an existing key is in the dash. If BMW have a workaround for this, allowing them to attach keys to the car without replacing the entire module, they would need to provide details of this workaround to all independent dealers under EU law.

I'm not so sure about that.

I quote this from a security forum:

"The claim that europe's law makers require the OBU to allow Key reprogramming is of course nonsense; they require unencumbered access to diagnostic data so that any car-shop can repair your car, no one requires BMW to omit a re-keying protection. "

I cannot guarantee the truth of that, but it seems very likely that it's correct. And it seems even more likely that EU law makes no reference whatever to the highly specific point we are now dealing with, i.e. the presence or absence of an existing key while reprogramming. Reequring an existing key to be present would in no way prevent an independent dealer doing anything to the car.

From a high level, non-legally trained view - my understanding of competition law is that a company cannot artificially create a monopoly by restricting who can work on their products.

If BMW have changed the procedure so that only they can recode a key in the absence of an original key, than that would contravene the law as it would give them a monopoly on that work.

Of course, that could all be internet BS or BMW could have taken the decision to do it despite the law.

[r999]

youngsyr said:

If BMW have changed the procedure so that only they can recode a key in the absence of an original key,

Why assume that? It seems more likely they have changed the procedure so that anyone can still code a new key, but only in the presence of an original key. And that in the absence of an original key, nobody can code a new key, not even BMW dealers themselves, and in that situation they would offer to replace the locks or CAS module. Some owners might not like that, but it would be no different in principle from the present situation where eventually you run out of key renewal options and have to replace the locks; it just happens rather sooner.

But once again, we need firm information, not speculation of this kind.

[youngsyr]

r999 said:

youngsyr said:

If BMW have changed the procedure so that only they can recode a key in the absence of an original key,

Why assume that? It seems more likely they have changed the procedure so that anyone can still code a new key, but only in the presence of an original key. And that in the absence of an original key, nobody can code a new key, not even BMW dealers themselves, and in that situation they would offer to replace the locks or CAS module. Some owners might not like that, but it would be no different in principle from the present situation where eventually you run out of key renewal options and have to replace the locks; it just happens rather sooner.

But once again, we need firm information, not speculation of this kind.

Until someone actually tries to reprogramme for a key after they've had the update, anything written in this thread is speculation.

Even then we only have an "internet stranger"'s word for it.