F31 335d remap - do I need to do this?
Discussion
I'd bet a good quality moderate output remap focused on response and a top end power boost (no need for too much torque with 8 ratios and UK road speeds shirley?)
In the brief 40mph/4th gear and 5th gear WOTs I did (not kickdown) the lag at such low rpm is already in the realms of irrelevance any way, but the torque ample to be doing 60mph in a handful of seconds.
I'm not one to say fast can't be fun, but in this case, adding say 5% torque and then keeping it higher out to peak power would be my preference.
One of the most undesirable characteristics of a diesel delivery (imo) is the drop off after peak torque is very steep and the sensation is one of increasingly slower acceleration with time.
Flattening the drop by boosting just top end torque feels a lot nicer, and it reduces wear/tear/loadings to much more reasonable levels.
Let the gearbox do the work, then let the engine do more work where the gearbox can't (making peak power, not high torque)
In the brief 40mph/4th gear and 5th gear WOTs I did (not kickdown) the lag at such low rpm is already in the realms of irrelevance any way, but the torque ample to be doing 60mph in a handful of seconds.
I'm not one to say fast can't be fun, but in this case, adding say 5% torque and then keeping it higher out to peak power would be my preference.
One of the most undesirable characteristics of a diesel delivery (imo) is the drop off after peak torque is very steep and the sensation is one of increasingly slower acceleration with time.
Flattening the drop by boosting just top end torque feels a lot nicer, and it reduces wear/tear/loadings to much more reasonable levels.
Let the gearbox do the work, then let the engine do more work where the gearbox can't (making peak power, not high torque)
Dark Green (MG60) is Std
Red (M5ET) is a bluespark generic £150 tuning box
Pink (HJ64) is Steinbauer box
Light Green (TR08) is DMS remap
Blue (WJ14) is Ecotune stage 1 remap
A bit difficult to read but std (darker green) torque is flattened out by the (blue) ecotune tune and to a lesser extent the (lighter green) dms tune
Ultimately though, torque wise they all tail off pretty rapidly well before the 5.4k redline
Red (M5ET) is a bluespark generic £150 tuning box
Pink (HJ64) is Steinbauer box
Light Green (TR08) is DMS remap
Blue (WJ14) is Ecotune stage 1 remap
A bit difficult to read but std (darker green) torque is flattened out by the (blue) ecotune tune and to a lesser extent the (lighter green) dms tune
Ultimately though, torque wise they all tail off pretty rapidly well before the 5.4k redline
By those graphs you could run OEM torque flat from OEM peak to 4500rpm ish and make 380bhp.
No more strain on gearbox etc, outright acceleration times would be nearly the same (8 gears!), and you'd only be adding load to the system above OEM the more you really push hard.
The apparent lag would be reduced too, whereas it'll be exacerbated with big torque boosts.
Each to their own I suppose.
However the fact these outputs are all over the shop on OEM parts, while Alpina change loads of bits for a more moderate output, tells you all you need to know.
Id love to know why Ecotune have all that extra poke vs DMS for example.
The explanations, if you ever get them, make for really fun reading.
The more consensus there is between tuners, and the more even their end results on OEM parts, the more you know they all know what they're doing, imo.
No more strain on gearbox etc, outright acceleration times would be nearly the same (8 gears!), and you'd only be adding load to the system above OEM the more you really push hard.
The apparent lag would be reduced too, whereas it'll be exacerbated with big torque boosts.
Each to their own I suppose.
However the fact these outputs are all over the shop on OEM parts, while Alpina change loads of bits for a more moderate output, tells you all you need to know.
Id love to know why Ecotune have all that extra poke vs DMS for example.
The explanations, if you ever get them, make for really fun reading.
The more consensus there is between tuners, and the more even their end results on OEM parts, the more you know they all know what they're doing, imo.
Mr Whippy said:
By those graphs you could run OEM torque flat from OEM peak to 4500rpm ish and make 380bhp.
No more strain on gearbox etc, outright acceleration times would be nearly the same (8 gears!), and you'd only be adding load to the system above OEM the more you really push hard.
The apparent lag would be reduced too, whereas it'll be exacerbated with big torque boosts.
Each to their own I suppose.
However the fact these outputs are all over the shop on OEM parts, while Alpina change loads of bits for a more moderate output, tells you all you need to know.
Id love to know why Ecotune have all that extra poke vs DMS for example.
The explanations, if you ever get them, make for really fun reading.
The more consensus there is between tuners, and the more even their end results on OEM parts, the more you know they all know what they're doing, imo.
In which case the exact same points you raise exist for Petrol engines No more strain on gearbox etc, outright acceleration times would be nearly the same (8 gears!), and you'd only be adding load to the system above OEM the more you really push hard.
The apparent lag would be reduced too, whereas it'll be exacerbated with big torque boosts.
Each to their own I suppose.
However the fact these outputs are all over the shop on OEM parts, while Alpina change loads of bits for a more moderate output, tells you all you need to know.
Id love to know why Ecotune have all that extra poke vs DMS for example.
The explanations, if you ever get them, make for really fun reading.
The more consensus there is between tuners, and the more even their end results on OEM parts, the more you know they all know what they're doing, imo.
Take all those C6 RS6’s that are purely remapped to 750-900bhp ditto F10 M5’s Golf R’s. I’d wager hardly anyone upgrades the intercooler bushes brakes etc as Your arriving the the corner at a higher speed than you would have.
I have no doubt they're faster, and possibly more fun for what that owner gets from their car.
But I'd worry about buying one of their cars used if it was put back to standard.
Just because they're fast and don't explode doesn't mean they're tuned well as a package though.
And ultimately that's what good tuning of an engine is, for the package and users needs.
It makes me think back to old v6 turbo f1 engines with lower boost more responsive outputs for twisty courses, and laggy engines with mega power for fast courses
You still can't have all your cake and eat it.
Sadly it doesn't look like any tuner offers what the driver might want wrt torque shaping.
Weird really as it could all be done via the torque limitation tables, thus limiting injection sizes, thus cutting boost request, etc, resulting in a more drivable engine.
But most buyers of these things just want big numbers, hell to drivability finesse.
I'll have to look properly once I get our 335d but I assume there will be tell tale signs an ecu enclosure and case proper have been off (probably for remapping)
I'm assuming the writing to ecu is done via BDM.
Another cost associated with remapping there, having to pay to revert, as it's not as trivial as an OBD revert.
But I'd worry about buying one of their cars used if it was put back to standard.
Just because they're fast and don't explode doesn't mean they're tuned well as a package though.
And ultimately that's what good tuning of an engine is, for the package and users needs.
It makes me think back to old v6 turbo f1 engines with lower boost more responsive outputs for twisty courses, and laggy engines with mega power for fast courses
You still can't have all your cake and eat it.
Sadly it doesn't look like any tuner offers what the driver might want wrt torque shaping.
Weird really as it could all be done via the torque limitation tables, thus limiting injection sizes, thus cutting boost request, etc, resulting in a more drivable engine.
But most buyers of these things just want big numbers, hell to drivability finesse.
I'll have to look properly once I get our 335d but I assume there will be tell tale signs an ecu enclosure and case proper have been off (probably for remapping)
I'm assuming the writing to ecu is done via BDM.
Another cost associated with remapping there, having to pay to revert, as it's not as trivial as an OBD revert.
tjlees said:
ACS are supposedly the BMW approved after market tuner with lots of experience and doesn't invalidate your BMW warranty ... however at £3,264.94 this is mightily expensive and piggy back can bus design
ACS UK use a Steinbauer piggy back tuning box, The cost is prohibitive because a large proportion of the cost you've alluded to is the warranty they (ACS UK) offer. The box can be bought far cheaper (less the warranty) direct from Steinbauer UK 
Personally I'd use Simon at Emaps. I used him for my E90 330D. He was nothing short of brilliant. He ran the diagnostics prior to the remap, and found numerous issues. (massively clogged DPF, failed pressure differential sensor, failed temperature differential sensor, failed glow plugs etc etc) he then drove the car with the diagnostics connected to show me the real time data in order to prove the DPV regen couldn't be initiated. When I went to my local BMW dealer to make a claim, they said they wouldn't be able to do so without a fault code or codes. Low and behold I produce my phone with various screenshots of the fault codes.....
A new DPF, glow plugs, pressure and temperature differential sensors later (all under warranty) and the car drove so well it didn't actually need the remap (but having paid for it, I had it reinstated anyway)
The end result was every bit as quick as my old E90 335D, albeit the power delivery from the single turbo engine was a bit more old school and peaky.Want a remap for an F30 335D ? Forget the rest, go speak to Simon (he knows his sh*t and is a lovely bloke to deal with too)
What diagnostics kit did Simon use to check all those sensors etc?
Generic OBD or BMW specific?
That's a nice thing about tuners, in not wanting to break your car they do (or should) check it over thoroughly first, and in having done this general health check on alike cars so often, should be able to spot erroneous values or problems and advise.
So sad that BMW don't do this really. I honestly think BMW dealers give BMW engineering quality a bit of a bad name.
Generic OBD or BMW specific?
That's a nice thing about tuners, in not wanting to break your car they do (or should) check it over thoroughly first, and in having done this general health check on alike cars so often, should be able to spot erroneous values or problems and advise.
So sad that BMW don't do this really. I honestly think BMW dealers give BMW engineering quality a bit of a bad name.
Mr Whippy said:
What diagnostics kit did Simon use to check all those sensors etc?
Generic OBD or BMW specific?
That's a nice thing about tuners, in not wanting to break your car they do (or should) check it over thoroughly first, and in having done this general health check on alike cars so often, should be able to spot erroneous values or problems and advise.
So sad that BMW don't do this really. I honestly think BMW dealers give BMW engineering quality a bit of a bad name.
It was the comments about DMS's dismissive attitude to customer who'd recently had his car mapped by them, earlier in this thread that prompted the above post. No such concerns with Emaps.Generic OBD or BMW specific?
That's a nice thing about tuners, in not wanting to break your car they do (or should) check it over thoroughly first, and in having done this general health check on alike cars so often, should be able to spot erroneous values or problems and advise.
So sad that BMW don't do this really. I honestly think BMW dealers give BMW engineering quality a bit of a bad name.
I think Simon's diagnostics are BMW specific.
F30 330D PPK comprises new ECU (supplied specific to individual vehicle chassis number, I suspect so it can't be sold on or copied) and a replacement intercooler (possibly a 535/335 D item)
The dms remap was constrained to be under 700nm iirc.
All good tuners will tune to your spec. Paul at wortec retuned my sbc v8 to ensure the desired afr and broaden the torque curve as much as possible - plus putting an anti-stall when slowing down and changing gear, and a soft delimiter plus hard one 200rpm later
All good tuners will tune to your spec. Paul at wortec retuned my sbc v8 to ensure the desired afr and broaden the torque curve as much as possible - plus putting an anti-stall when slowing down and changing gear, and a soft delimiter plus hard one 200rpm later
Edited by tjlees on Wednesday 1st November 19:10
Welshbeef said:
Don’t BMW themselves offer the PPK upgrade which is simply a remap - they do this for most models except the x35d due to making it too close to the M3 in outright pace
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQr7NRjhlL8In order for this to be achieved without damaging the engine, your car will receive a new, more powerful intercooler, an improved air intake quote unquote
smashy said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQr7NRjhlL8
In order for this to be achieved without damaging the engine, your car will receive a new, more powerful intercooler, an improved air intake quote unquote
Car wasn't tied down very well!In order for this to be achieved without damaging the engine, your car will receive a new, more powerful intercooler, an improved air intake quote unquote
Mr Whippy said:
Uh, tuners with corrected before/afters.
The only proof worth much is independent customer before/after uncorrected wheel figures.
I'm still not seeing enough to make me even want to hand over £50, never mind £1000s!
You know wheel figures are just as east to diddle / inaccurate as flywheel?The only proof worth much is independent customer before/after uncorrected wheel figures.
I'm still not seeing enough to make me even want to hand over £50, never mind £1000s!
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
So itvappears many C63?owners docremap thsir Cars without any issue at all. No upgrade of parts either just remap
So why is it bad for x35d owners to do so yet ok for C63 owners or is it possibly the demographic of C63 owners is possibly a bit Council/bruv innit crew.
So itvappears many C63?owners docremap thsir Cars without any issue at all. No upgrade of parts either just remap
So why is it bad for x35d owners to do so yet ok for C63 owners or is it possibly the demographic of C63 owners is possibly a bit Council/bruv innit crew.
Slippydiff said:
Mr Whippy said:
What diagnostics kit did Simon use to check all those sensors etc?
Generic OBD or BMW specific?
That's a nice thing about tuners, in not wanting to break your car they do (or should) check it over thoroughly first, and in having done this general health check on alike cars so often, should be able to spot erroneous values or problems and advise.
So sad that BMW don't do this really. I honestly think BMW dealers give BMW engineering quality a bit of a bad name.
It was the comments about DMS's dismissive attitude to customer who'd recently had his car mapped by them, earlier in this thread that prompted the above post. No such concerns with Emaps.Generic OBD or BMW specific?
That's a nice thing about tuners, in not wanting to break your car they do (or should) check it over thoroughly first, and in having done this general health check on alike cars so often, should be able to spot erroneous values or problems and advise.
So sad that BMW don't do this really. I honestly think BMW dealers give BMW engineering quality a bit of a bad name.
I think Simon's diagnostics are BMW specific.
F30 330D PPK comprises new ECU (supplied specific to individual vehicle chassis number, I suspect so it can't be sold on or copied) and a replacement intercooler (possibly a 535/335 D item)
xjay1337 said:
Welshbeef said:
I’ve not ever heard DMS are s
te before
They offer full OEM warranty for component failure if you remap within OEM warranty “bob round the corner doesn’t”. They remap top end Sports and super Cars bob your mate wouldn’t get a look in.
They have a great reputation
What evidence do you have to say DMS are “st”? Or is it simply that they are at the high end of the market and you personally think a £300 remap is the same ?
A friend had a car mapped there. Even with DPF in place it smoked. Now back on standard software it isn't right. te beforeThey offer full OEM warranty for component failure if you remap within OEM warranty “bob round the corner doesn’t”. They remap top end Sports and super Cars bob your mate wouldn’t get a look in.
They have a great reputation
What evidence do you have to say DMS are “s
t”? Or is it simply that they are at the high end of the market and you personally think a £300 remap is the same ?smackdown said:
Slippydiff said:
Mr Whippy said:
What diagnostics kit did Simon use to check all those sensors etc?
Generic OBD or BMW specific?
That's a nice thing about tuners, in not wanting to break your car they do (or should) check it over thoroughly first, and in having done this general health check on alike cars so often, should be able to spot erroneous values or problems and advise.
So sad that BMW don't do this really. I honestly think BMW dealers give BMW engineering quality a bit of a bad name.
It was the comments about DMS's dismissive attitude to customer who'd recently had his car mapped by them, earlier in this thread that prompted the above post. No such concerns with Emaps.Generic OBD or BMW specific?
That's a nice thing about tuners, in not wanting to break your car they do (or should) check it over thoroughly first, and in having done this general health check on alike cars so often, should be able to spot erroneous values or problems and advise.
So sad that BMW don't do this really. I honestly think BMW dealers give BMW engineering quality a bit of a bad name.
I think Simon's diagnostics are BMW specific.
F30 330D PPK comprises new ECU (supplied specific to individual vehicle chassis number, I suspect so it can't be sold on or copied) and a replacement intercooler (possibly a 535/335 D item)
Gassing Station | BMW General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff