xDrive pretty good - RFT's diabolical
Discussion
OK so I know all about winter tyres having spent the last 6 winters on them but hear me out.....
I switched to a 335d just over a year ago and had my first real taste of proper snow last weekend
The car is leased and so I havent bothered with winters this time as I figured the xdrive would get me to the nearest gritted road at which point Id be fine - which was only partially correct
The car is on Bridgestone run flats and I just didnt realise how awful they would be
It gets going well enough without much effort however traction for steering and braking is just awful, even worse than I remember from the good old days before I discovered winter tyres
The AWD system must be bloody sensational to get me up gradients, even starting from a standstill, but Im just completely shocked at the lack of ability and confidence it has when doing anything else even on slush as well as hard packed or fresh snow.
All weather ability is essential for me and I shall now be taking a closer look at the economics of leasing and having another set of winters. The car would be a lot more useful if it came with all season run flats - or are all run flat tyres utterly useless?
Cheers - be careful out there
Living in Canada I swear by winter rims and tires. All seasons do nothing very well, so I have proper summer tires and good winters.. I once had a BMW the runflats and the handling and ride were abominable . When I put of a set of conventional Michelins it was like getting a new car.
Bridgestone are poor.
The RE050 RFT on my Z4 were horrible, rough riding and poor in the wet and plain scary in snow and ice.
S001 RFT on my 335d are horrible, rough riding and poor in the wet and cold in my so far limited experience.
Eagle F1 Asym 1,2 and 3 on my Z4 (non-RFT) were smooth as silk, quiet, added noticeable mpg, and seemed to be just as good in the wet as dry, and even in proper snow were left with enough feel and grip to give me confidence to drive in winter with them and do ok.
So maybe give winter another go but with better summer tyres.
Apparently F1 Asym 3 RFT are a revelation in quietness, ride smoothness and if my experience is valid, will be better in wet and ice too!
As soon as my S001 wear away I'll be going for F1s.
And possibly a set of winters.
The RE050 RFT on my Z4 were horrible, rough riding and poor in the wet and plain scary in snow and ice.
S001 RFT on my 335d are horrible, rough riding and poor in the wet and cold in my so far limited experience.
Eagle F1 Asym 1,2 and 3 on my Z4 (non-RFT) were smooth as silk, quiet, added noticeable mpg, and seemed to be just as good in the wet as dry, and even in proper snow were left with enough feel and grip to give me confidence to drive in winter with them and do ok.
So maybe give winter another go but with better summer tyres.
Apparently F1 Asym 3 RFT are a revelation in quietness, ride smoothness and if my experience is valid, will be better in wet and ice too!
As soon as my S001 wear away I'll be going for F1s.
And possibly a set of winters.
I’ve been through three winters with 2WD on Pirelli winter RFTs without issue, including two ski trips with lots of snow.
Your problem is the lack of a decent winter tyre. It’s well documented that 4WD without the correct tyre is of little benefit in braking or cornering on snow and ice. I’m surprised you thought it might be.
Your problem is the lack of a decent winter tyre. It’s well documented that 4WD without the correct tyre is of little benefit in braking or cornering on snow and ice. I’m surprised you thought it might be.
It's a common misconception that AWD on summers is as good as anything else on winters, and just not true. I had a 330d xDrive Touring but always swapped it to winters (Pirelli Winter Sottozero Serie-II) when it got cold. It was fantastic on snow (with the winters) even on standing starts on a snowy incline and got us across the Jura Mountains in particularly challenging snow conditions.
In any event, you also need to set your traction controls appropriately when on snow, slush, sand, or gravel. For the recent 3 Series, this means pressing the car-with wriggly-lines button for a few seconds until TRACTION appears on the display. You stay in that mode until you're back on solid tarmac (with no snow cover) and then press it again and TRACTION disappears.
I wouldn't put your problems down to anything to do with being runflat tyres. My current Pirelli Winter Sottozero S3s are runflats and they're great on my M235i which remains pretty calm in the snow given it's 322 BHP and only RWD.
In any event, you also need to set your traction controls appropriately when on snow, slush, sand, or gravel. For the recent 3 Series, this means pressing the car-with wriggly-lines button for a few seconds until TRACTION appears on the display. You stay in that mode until you're back on solid tarmac (with no snow cover) and then press it again and TRACTION disappears.
I wouldn't put your problems down to anything to do with being runflat tyres. My current Pirelli Winter Sottozero S3s are runflats and they're great on my M235i which remains pretty calm in the snow given it's 322 BHP and only RWD.
Edited by msej449 on Thursday 4th January 13:36
The summer RFT bridgestones as with any other Summers, will lose a significant amount of grip in ice and snow when compared to winters - its night and day for me.
In last 5 inch dump of snow, I dodged a FF 4WD sliding down our local 1:6 hill while I was on winters to give him a WTF moment - AWD only gives traction and not grip!
In last 5 inch dump of snow, I dodged a FF 4WD sliding down our local 1:6 hill while I was on winters to give him a WTF moment - AWD only gives traction and not grip!
Goodyear F1 assymetric 3 RFT are the reason I will not be bothering with normal tyres again,
Problem is if you order a new car you have no say on what tyres are put on and will probably end up with contis or bridgestones again taking you back to stoneage times as much comforts as rocks
Problem is if you order a new car you have no say on what tyres are put on and will probably end up with contis or bridgestones again taking you back to stoneage times as much comforts as rocks
Part of me is tempted to just upgrade and sell the old S001s for whatever I can get... they really are average tyres at best.
To think I almost tried them out for my Z4 over the F1s!
I figured Bridgestone must have moved things on over a decade since the RE050... bit nope, they're still just very average tyres at best.
To think I almost tried them out for my Z4 over the F1s!
I figured Bridgestone must have moved things on over a decade since the RE050... bit nope, they're still just very average tyres at best.
msej449 said:
In any event, you also need to set your traction controls appropriately when on snow, slush, sand, or gravel. For the recent 3 Series, this means pressing the car-with wriggly-lines button for a few seconds until TRACTION appears on the display. You stay in that mode until you're back on solid tarmac (with no snow cover) and then press it again and TRACTION disappears.
Does pressing the button for a while not disable traction (at least partially)? I get why this might be great on the odd occasion but isn't my default mode when driving on snow. Edited by msej449 on Thursday 4th January 13:36
NorthDave said:
Does pressing the button for a while not disable traction (at least partially)? I get why this might be great on the odd occasion but isn't my default mode when driving on snow.
Firstly a caveat - this varies by model and year, so I can only speak for my 2013 330d Touring xDrive and 2016 M235i Convertible. Your Owners Manual will be the definitive guide. A couple of BMW-specific terms are worth defining first:DSC is Dynamic Stability Control and is the software+mechanicals that inhibits oversteer when driving 'dynamically'. This stops you spinning-off when powering too much on a turn. By default, DSC is always on unless you consciously override it using various traction and adaptive settings.
DTC is Dynamic Traction Control and is the software+ mechanicals that will maximise traction of the tyres against the driving surface. Particularly, this stops wheel spin. This is what you want when you're on snow, gravel, sand or when chains are fitted. The system uses the brakes to stop a wheel from spinning if spin is detected. You will never want to be in this mode driving 'dynamically', at speed, on tarmac.
These two modes are mutually exclusive and on 'normal' tarmac you absolutely want to be in the default DSC mode. But on snow etc. you absolutely don't. You want to be in Traction mode. So what do you do? ,,,,,,,,
A. Press the 'car-with-wiggly-lines-OFF' button for a few seconds (less than 10s). This
1. disables DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) i.e. turns DSC OFF
2. enables DTC (Dynamic Traction Control)
3. 'DSC OFF' and 'TRACTION' appear on the instrument panel
You leave the car like this all the time you're on snow etc. according to BMW. Because you're not driving 'dynamically' it should be OK, even if you're chugging away at 60Kph on a snowy road on your winter tyres and xDrive. You won't be approaching the boundaries of handling where you'd need DSC.
When you get back onto solid tarmac, you reverse the process
B. Press the 'car-with-wiggly-lines-OFF' button again for a few seconds (less than 10s), this
1. enables DSC (Dynamic Stability Control) i.e. turns DSC ON
2. disables DTC (Dynamic Traction Control)
3. 'DSC OFF' and 'TRACTION' disappear
What happens when you press the 'car-with-wiggly-lines-OFF' button for more than 10 seconds is another issue :-)
{Afterthought: In this context specifically, it may be easier to think of the car-with-wriggly-lines-OFF button as basically having a snowflake on it. You hit snow - you press the button and TRACTION is displayed. BAck on tarmac, you press it again and TRACTION disappears. But the caveat is that there are some other scenarios when you would engage it that are nothing to do with snow, so perhaps this is why BMW doesn't label it with a snowflake. But in the winter, I've actually been tempted to re-cover it with a snowflake label, just so that it's simper to interpret for anyone else driving the car.}
Edited by msej449 on Thursday 4th January 18:15
REALIST123 said:
I’ve been through three winters with 2WD on Pirelli winter RFTs without issue, including two ski trips with lots of snow.
Your problem is the lack of a decent winter tyre. It’s well documented that 4WD without the correct tyre is of little benefit in braking or cornering on snow and ice. I’m surprised you thought it might be.
My surprise was how poorly my current Bridgestones performed compared to my memory of an E46 330d on conventional rubber Your problem is the lack of a decent winter tyre. It’s well documented that 4WD without the correct tyre is of little benefit in braking or cornering on snow and ice. I’m surprised you thought it might be.
That car was a lot more able than my current one and I wondered if RFTs played a part
Cheers
Swervin_Mervin said:
We just ditched the Asymm 3 RFTs on ours for non-RFT equivalent. Vast improvement in both handling and refinement.
Amazed by that 3 years on Michelin Pilots 3s for 3 years before going back to run flats with those F1 3s the only thing I notice is a bit of tramlining on a section of M25 near jun 9 and I do a shed load of miles apart from that I think they are ok road noise is really good not much crashiness and in a way I prefer the hardness of them ,my previous Run Flats were so bad I got rid after 3 weeks of buying the car new 
te though. Got about in this ok mind.
Wills2 said:
This, I think the OP has just realised that getting going doesn't mean you'll be able to stop and steer.
I'm amazed people don't understand these simple concepts.
Scary isn't it!? I'm amazed people don't understand these simple concepts.
"So you buy a heavy 2.5 tonne truck, put it on wider summer tyres and expect it to stop in snow better??!!"
Wills2 said:
tjlees said:
AWD only gives traction and not grip!
This, I think the OP has just realised that getting going doesn't mean you'll be able to stop and steer. I'm amazed people don't understand these simple concepts.
Ive just ben out again in heavy snow and once again the car can climb surprising gradients but is utterly useless on the brakes
I ran a RWD 330 for several winters pre runflats and it was nowhere near as bad as this hence my question about how much the RFT's are responsible for its lack of ability
Cheers
Gassing Station | BMW General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff