Anyone else's X3 sh1t in the snow???
Discussion
Eddieslofart said:
Nope, but Discovery boy is getting on my tits. 
My X5 on these has never struggled ( Nor broke down)
This weekend, i shall be fixing a mates Disco 3, EGR Cooler leaking. Probably have to replace some oil seal or another somewhere in the near future, the gearbox judder issue will need some s
te putting in the box i suppose. It’s a common theme with Land Rover Chocolate boxes. Yes, they are designed to go off road....because it’s where they spend most of their time, waiting for the AA
My 330d X Drive on Bridgestones though, is epically sheet ( still won’t break down though)
And got about ok( ish) in this lot.
That curb looks a bit high, be careful! My X5 on these has never struggled ( Nor broke down)
This weekend, i shall be fixing a mates Disco 3, EGR Cooler leaking. Probably have to replace some oil seal or another somewhere in the near future, the gearbox judder issue will need some s
te putting in the box i suppose. It’s a common theme with Land Rover Chocolate boxes. Yes, they are designed to go off road....because it’s where they spend most of their time, waiting for the AA My 330d X Drive on Bridgestones though, is epically sheet ( still won’t break down though)
And got about ok( ish) in this lot.wormus said:
That curb looks a bit high, be careful!
I’m not a serious off roader like you ! Don’t even have a tough looking bit of rope wrapped round the bumper ! And a winch ? Heaven forbid ! Next thing, i’d be drinking real ale, and swapping leaky oil seal stories with zz top bearded mates !
Zod said:
wormus said:
...there’s a reason the cup holders are just big enough for a can of Red Bull.
Meanwhile the door bins on my Disco and the RR can accommodate a bottle of wine in each.
You'll be pleased therefore to hear that the same is true of the door bins in an X5. I reckon you could actually fit a magnum in there.Meanwhile the door bins on my Disco and the RR can accommodate a bottle of wine in each.
Had experience of BMW’s on summers and winters and range rovers on all seasons. OP are you traveling on urban or rural roads? If urban have you considered Michelin crossclimate? No personal experience but supposed to offer a decent compromise if you’re just concerned about a few days a year
wormus said:
Not sure how you can compare a 3 series on stilts with a FF Range Rover and I’m confused by the “limits” you refer to. Land Rovers these days are built as luxury cars to be used on the road. They are all but silent on the motorway, relaxing in traffic and still awesome off road. The same cannot be said about the X3 or X5.
I'd say the X3 is very impressive on the road and can stop and change direction much better than the FFRR. I've a friend who recently bought an Autobiography version who said that whilst off-road it's epic, it can't hold a candle to X3s, X5s or AMG MLs when on the road. But then, the FFRR was not designed to be driven in that manner, whereas the X3s etc are far more suited to that. Again, it's horses for courses and the purchaser should choose the right car for their intended usage.Edited by wormus on Thursday 18th January 09:41
As has been said re tyres. The LRs tend to come with far more rugged tyres than the X3s etc, which are typically on very sporty summer rubber, which focuses on controlling high temperatures and providing a lot of contact with a dry road in summer. They're also good enough to get out of a muddy Goodwood Revival car park when very low on tread when many a heavy front engined, RWD car is struggling.
dgm said:
I wonder how many who comment on here have got first hand experience of the vehicles they opine on, not so many would be my guess. Most know that Range Rover/Land Rover products are superior off road vehicles against the likes of the BMW 4x4s, what’s the point in reiterating it very time someone asks how to improve the on road performance of their SUV BMW? That’s not what was asked here....
I realise the OP was asking about performance on snow and ice, which has been answered - tyres.However, to answer your point about experiences and opinions on both a BMW (X3 35d) and a LR product (a D4).....
When I go 'off-road' it's mainly on gravel tracks with the occasional foray into the undergrowth/moors/mud (delete as applicable). I would say that tyres are just as important there as well. My first few years running Pirelli Scorpions demonstrated that as a compromise tyre they are OK, but as soon as you start pushing on they're as useless as road tyres. Understeer on gravel is not what you want when traveling quickly, you want grip and a good 'feeling' of what's underneath you. I did have one experience where I used winter tyres on gravel, simply because I didn't have a decent set of Scorpions. That actually demonstrated that the winters were better - more grip in the wet, muddy conditions.
I finally changed to a set of ATs, just what is needed for off-road use and gives that feeling of confidence on the gravel and even further. Conversely, they're useless on the road - noisy, and a noticeable lack of grip on wet tarmac - even more scary actually as you tend to travel much faster on the road.
So, yes, there are instances where two (or three) sets of tyres are required - I've got 20" summers, 18" winters and 17" ATs for mine. If I had a LR then yes, I'd have the same combination as using the right tool for the job is a sensible, some would say recommended, approach.
That covers the tyres....... now about the vehicles - I've had X3s for the some years now as they fit my needs (and wants
). I've also used Discoveries (D3 and D4) for extended periods. I think the Disco is a very capable vehicle off-road, but compromised on-road (see a theme here). To start with, the weight, 2.7 tonnes is often felt both on road and off. That's like me driving round in my X3 with a Caterham strapped to the roof. The wallowing nature of the vehicle when driven 'with pace' means you have to slow down to counter the rolling and also bring back some confidence in the chassis. You can feel the Disco is built to be 'soft' as that is better off-road.
Performance - The D3 was simply woefully slow because of the weight and lack of grunt, the D4 is better, but still not good. The later models with the 8 speed ZF are an improvement but the low speed response is rubbish, trickling forwards a gentle push on the accelerator elicits a jerky lurch from the car as if you're trying the traffic lights GP.
There are places I've taken the Disco where I would've struggled in the X3 mainly because of the depth of water or the X3's overhangs and bumpers. I think both cars would've got to where we needed to go, but the X3 may have gained a couple of scrapes on it's extremities.
Overall my thoughts on the Disco are not good - the interior plastics aren't the best, the driving position is lousy compared to the BMW - after a couple of hours I had cramp in my leg and my back was aching, whereas I've driven to the Alps in the BMW without suffering. The connectivity is poor, with an archaic iPhone interface. The 18 month old D4, we had recently, suffered a DPF failure and went into limp mode - at 24,000 miles. I'd have been very grumpy if that had been my own car.
In answer to DGM's point that LR products are better off-road, yes, they are, but their compromises on-road means I won't be buying one anytime soon, as a BMW SUV is faster, more economical, handles better and is generally more capable for what I use it for.
...and there lies my point - we all have different needs and wants. Some cars are better than others at various tasks - that simply means they're all compromised....
Granfondo said:
Thread started with the OP telling us how crap his BMW X3 was in the snow and now the BMW fanboys are making a case for it being one of the best cars in the world!
With no real basis, I disliked the X3s and X5s of this world before my wife bought an X3 35d. I'm now totally sold on them. We now have an economical, go anywhere, family estate, which hits 60 in 5 and a half seconds and is just brilliant at everything we throw at it. 
I think the naysayers need to drive one for a bit.Ranger 6 said:
I realise the OP was asking about performance on snow and ice, which has been answered - tyres.
However, to answer your point about experiences and opinions on both a BMW (X3 35d) and a LR product (a D4).....
When I go 'off-road' it's mainly on gravel tracks with the occasional foray into the undergrowth/moors/mud (delete as applicable). I would say that tyres are just as important there as well. My first few years running Pirelli Scorpions demonstrated that as a compromise tyre they are OK, but as soon as you start pushing on they're as useless as road tyres. Understeer on gravel is not what you want when traveling quickly, you want grip and a good 'feeling' of what's underneath you. I did have one experience where I used winter tyres on gravel, simply because I didn't have a decent set of Scorpions. That actually demonstrated that the winters were better - more grip in the wet, muddy conditions.
I finally changed to a set of ATs, just what is needed for off-road use and gives that feeling of confidence on the gravel and even further. Conversely, they're useless on the road - noisy, and a noticeable lack of grip on wet tarmac - even more scary actually as you tend to travel much faster on the road.
So, yes, there are instances where two (or three) sets of tyres are required - I've got 20" summers, 18" winters and 17" ATs for mine. If I had a LR then yes, I'd have the same combination as using the right tool for the job is a sensible, some would say recommended, approach.
That covers the tyres....... now about the vehicles - I've had X3s for the some years now as they fit my needs (and wants ). I've also used Discoveries (D3 and D4) for extended periods. I think the Disco is a very capable vehicle off-road, but compromised on-road (see a theme here).
To start with, the weight, 2.7 tonnes is often felt both on road and off. That's like me driving round in my X3 with a Caterham strapped to the roof. The wallowing nature of the vehicle when driven 'with pace' means you have to slow down to counter the rolling and also bring back some confidence in the chassis. You can feel the Disco is built to be 'soft' as that is better off-road.
Performance - The D3 was simply woefully slow because of the weight and lack of grunt, the D4 is better, but still not good. The later models with the 8 speed ZF are an improvement but the low speed response is rubbish, trickling forwards a gentle push on the accelerator elicits a jerky lurch from the car as if you're trying the traffic lights GP.
There are places I've taken the Disco where I would've struggled in the X3 mainly because of the depth of water or the X3's overhangs and bumpers. I think both cars would've got to where we needed to go, but the X3 may have gained a couple of scrapes on it's extremities.
Overall my thoughts on the Disco are not good - the interior plastics aren't the best, the driving position is lousy compared to the BMW - after a couple of hours I had cramp in my leg and my back was aching, whereas I've driven to the Alps in the BMW without suffering. The connectivity is poor, with an archaic iPhone interface. The 18 month old D4, we had recently, suffered a DPF failure and went into limp mode - at 24,000 miles. I'd have been very grumpy if that had been my own car.
In answer to DGM's point that LR products are better off-road, yes, they are, but their compromises on-road means I won't be buying one anytime soon, as a BMW SUV is faster, more economical, handles better and is generally more capable for what I use it for.
...and there lies my point - we all have different needs and wants. Some cars are better
than others at various tasks - that simply means they're all compromised....
Totally agree with what you say and that mirrors my experience of the Discovery 3 and 4. I deliberately steered away from the reliability aspect of the Land Rover/Range Rover products as it’s not what the OP was asking but seeing as you mention it, in the last two years a friend has had to have replacement engines in a Defender which was less than two years old and then in a Discovery 4 which was 10 months old. However, to answer your point about experiences and opinions on both a BMW (X3 35d) and a LR product (a D4).....
When I go 'off-road' it's mainly on gravel tracks with the occasional foray into the undergrowth/moors/mud (delete as applicable). I would say that tyres are just as important there as well. My first few years running Pirelli Scorpions demonstrated that as a compromise tyre they are OK, but as soon as you start pushing on they're as useless as road tyres. Understeer on gravel is not what you want when traveling quickly, you want grip and a good 'feeling' of what's underneath you. I did have one experience where I used winter tyres on gravel, simply because I didn't have a decent set of Scorpions. That actually demonstrated that the winters were better - more grip in the wet, muddy conditions.
I finally changed to a set of ATs, just what is needed for off-road use and gives that feeling of confidence on the gravel and even further. Conversely, they're useless on the road - noisy, and a noticeable lack of grip on wet tarmac - even more scary actually as you tend to travel much faster on the road.
So, yes, there are instances where two (or three) sets of tyres are required - I've got 20" summers, 18" winters and 17" ATs for mine. If I had a LR then yes, I'd have the same combination as using the right tool for the job is a sensible, some would say recommended, approach.
That covers the tyres....... now about the vehicles - I've had X3s for the some years now as they fit my needs (and wants
). I've also used Discoveries (D3 and D4) for extended periods. I think the Disco is a very capable vehicle off-road, but compromised on-road (see a theme here). To start with, the weight, 2.7 tonnes is often felt both on road and off. That's like me driving round in my X3 with a Caterham strapped to the roof. The wallowing nature of the vehicle when driven 'with pace' means you have to slow down to counter the rolling and also bring back some confidence in the chassis. You can feel the Disco is built to be 'soft' as that is better off-road.
Performance - The D3 was simply woefully slow because of the weight and lack of grunt, the D4 is better, but still not good. The later models with the 8 speed ZF are an improvement but the low speed response is rubbish, trickling forwards a gentle push on the accelerator elicits a jerky lurch from the car as if you're trying the traffic lights GP.
There are places I've taken the Disco where I would've struggled in the X3 mainly because of the depth of water or the X3's overhangs and bumpers. I think both cars would've got to where we needed to go, but the X3 may have gained a couple of scrapes on it's extremities.
Overall my thoughts on the Disco are not good - the interior plastics aren't the best, the driving position is lousy compared to the BMW - after a couple of hours I had cramp in my leg and my back was aching, whereas I've driven to the Alps in the BMW without suffering. The connectivity is poor, with an archaic iPhone interface. The 18 month old D4, we had recently, suffered a DPF failure and went into limp mode - at 24,000 miles. I'd have been very grumpy if that had been my own car.
In answer to DGM's point that LR products are better off-road, yes, they are, but their compromises on-road means I won't be buying one anytime soon, as a BMW SUV is faster, more economical, handles better and is generally more capable for what I use it for.
...and there lies my point - we all have different needs and wants. Some cars are better
than others at various tasks - that simply means they're all compromised....
My advice to the OP is to ask your dealer service department what is recommended as winter setup for your VIN and it will almost certainly be narrower and less diameter wheels and winter tyres. Without wishing to be presumptuous, this chart tries to summarise the various options available for winter driving (not just snow) and apologies for the size, I must trim it down some time:
It's not meant to be precise, but just to position things from warm and dry summer on the left, through cold and wet winter in the middle to snow on the right.
An xDrive (any model) with winters would extend the 'Winter' bar a bit further to the right: this was for M Performance BMW owners who in the UK don't have the option of xDrive, so it's not on the chart. Also the aim was to persuade even UK-only M Performance model owners that switching to winters is still useful, even if they never see snow.
You can argue over the exact positioning of each bar, but I hope it's broadly indicative.
If it's a specifically snow-oriented discussion, then the issue is how far does {x} take me before I have to use chains? I'd say summers (10%), summers+socks (50%), all-seasons (75%) and winters (90%)
It's not meant to be precise, but just to position things from warm and dry summer on the left, through cold and wet winter in the middle to snow on the right.
An xDrive (any model) with winters would extend the 'Winter' bar a bit further to the right: this was for M Performance BMW owners who in the UK don't have the option of xDrive, so it's not on the chart. Also the aim was to persuade even UK-only M Performance model owners that switching to winters is still useful, even if they never see snow.
You can argue over the exact positioning of each bar, but I hope it's broadly indicative.
If it's a specifically snow-oriented discussion, then the issue is how far does {x} take me before I have to use chains? I'd say summers (10%), summers+socks (50%), all-seasons (75%) and winters (90%)
Edited by msej449 on Friday 19th January 15:31
That chart is interesting but I'm not sure what it's trying to indicate with the 'gap' round standing water and heavy rain since most decent summer sport tyres are also absolute ninjas in the wet compared to an all-season or winter tyre. Uniroyal, Kumho, Dunlop to name but three all make summer sport tyres that carve through standing water. Especially the Uniroyal Rainsport 3 which I'm sure you will have noticed a lot of people mention on various threads recently. They really are outstandingly good tyres at their price point. I'm sure there are some cars they don't suit but they seriously impressed me in some absolutely foul conditions on my mapped 330d.
ETA if you were to swap the position of "wet & standing water" with "cold and damp" the chart would work better I think - the real gap is between wet weather performance and cold & damp.
ETA if you were to swap the position of "wet & standing water" with "cold and damp" the chart would work better I think - the real gap is between wet weather performance and cold & damp.
Edited by vsonix on Friday 19th January 14:18
Granfondo said:
Thread started with the OP telling us how crap his BMW X3 was in the snow and now the BMW fanboys are making a case for it being one of the best cars in the world!
Agreed, although this is PH so BMWs and Audi’s matter. You are better off in M4 with winters on than in a Unimog apparently. wormus said:
Granfondo said:
Thread started with the OP telling us how crap his BMW X3 was in the snow and now the BMW fanboys are making a case for it being one of the best cars in the world!
Agreed, although this is PH so BMWs and Audi’s matter. You are better off in M4 with winters on than in a Unimog apparently. @vsonix: It's tricky and I may edit as you suggest - the original chart was in the context of a discussion of implicitly colder weather and performance RWD cars. So normal summer rain isn't really in scope, and I'm not suggesting a performance car should wear winters in the middle of summer. This main argument was that a performance car benefits from winter tyres in the winter (cold + wet) quite independently of snow.
Basically, the chart was initially a part of trying to argue that a BMW M140i/M240i driver posting that their traction control is 'lighting up like a Christmas tree' (a common complaint in the autumn/winter forums) needs to get some winter tyres. Because it's winter. Which means colder and wetter than summer.
For the OP, the chart underlines that even without snow, in a UK winter that's wet and cold an AWD/4x4 on summers is disadvantaged against any car on winters. Throw in snow as well, and my 322 BHP RWD BMW M235i convertible manages better than any X1-X5 on summers. So as mentioned, if the OP was unhappy with their snow performance then this is perhaps just an extreme illustration of the value of winter tyres.
Basically, the chart was initially a part of trying to argue that a BMW M140i/M240i driver posting that their traction control is 'lighting up like a Christmas tree' (a common complaint in the autumn/winter forums) needs to get some winter tyres. Because it's winter. Which means colder and wetter than summer.
For the OP, the chart underlines that even without snow, in a UK winter that's wet and cold an AWD/4x4 on summers is disadvantaged against any car on winters. Throw in snow as well, and my 322 BHP RWD BMW M235i convertible manages better than any X1-X5 on summers. So as mentioned, if the OP was unhappy with their snow performance then this is perhaps just an extreme illustration of the value of winter tyres.
Edited by msej449 on Friday 19th January 15:58
Zod said:
Nobody has said anything remotely on those lines. Just about he only hyperbole on this thread has been from you denigrating BMWs and exalting your Discovery.
Well if that’s your reality....I’d urge you to read some of the thread history with a more objective, less biased point of view. This place is obviously for BMW fans only.
wormus said:
Zod said:
Nobody has said anything remotely on those lines. Just about he only hyperbole on this thread has been from you denigrating BMWs and exalting your Discovery.
Well if that’s your reality....I’d urge you to read some of the thread history with a more objective, less biased point of view. This place is obviously for BMW fans only.
msej449 said:
Basically, the chart was initially a part of trying to argue that a BMW M140i/M240i driver posting that their traction control is 'lighting up like a Christmas tree' (a common complaint in the autumn/winter forums) needs to get some winter tyres. Because it's winter. Which means colder and wetter than summer.
Which would be perfectly true.Before the X5 I had a 135i, and even in the south-east, the car was waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy nicer to drive on winters between Nov-Mar than on the performance summer tyres.
Actually, to be brutally honest, I often put off swapping back to the summers well into April, as I actually preferred driving the car on winters
But, I don't have the space onow, or the inclination to wheel swap twice a year, especially with bigger X5 size rims, and hence, I wanted to run all-seasons, and thus that meant a SE spec X5, not a M-Sport because of the staggered rims sizes so beloved by BMW on its M-Sport models.
I was VERY close to buying a Cayenne instead of the X5, as with even the 20" rim option you can spec all-season tyres on the Porsche because of the 'square' rim widths, unlike the staggered tyre sizes on M-Sport BM's.
Too many other things with the Porsche that I didn't like tempted me back to BMW though.
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