Steering wheel wobble on braking - E61 - Possible Causes?
Discussion
As the titles says, I have brake judder which can be felt through the steering wheel on braking; seems to be at low to mid speeds and less so at higher speeds.
I had the discs and pads changed all round less than 1500 miles ago - could they really be shagged already? My indy seems to think so, although I'm surprised that they could be given they weren't super budget items. They are Bosch discs all round with ATE pads up front and brembo at the back. Perhaps the mismatched brands don't work well together? Or could it be suspension related?
I'd like to explore other possibilities before replacing them all again. Any suggestions are very welcome!
I had the discs and pads changed all round less than 1500 miles ago - could they really be shagged already? My indy seems to think so, although I'm surprised that they could be given they weren't super budget items. They are Bosch discs all round with ATE pads up front and brembo at the back. Perhaps the mismatched brands don't work well together? Or could it be suspension related?
I'd like to explore other possibilities before replacing them all again. Any suggestions are very welcome!
Evolved said:
Could be paid deposits on the disks. How aggressive are the pads you put in? I’m not well up on the ones you listed.
Sometimes using a more aggressive pad will clean the disks and mean less deposits if you like to drive fast!
They are just regular pads - ATE are meant to be OEM BMW spec. I don't drive particularly fast as the car is used mainly in the city and has only been on 2 long runs since I had the discs/pads changed.Sometimes using a more aggressive pad will clean the disks and mean less deposits if you like to drive fast!
RanchoGrande said:
They are just regular pads - ATE are meant to be OEM BMW spec. I don't drive particularly fast as the car is used mainly in the city and has only been on 2 long runs since I had the discs/pads changed.
Discs don’t warp, its a myth. Lots of info on Google... You'd have to create serious temps to do this... It does sound like brake pad deposits. Some hard, but safe braking should clear them: then drive the car normally for a few good miles to let the brakes cool down normally. Don’t sit with your foot on the brake either, drop into neutral or handbrake on etc. Foot on the pedal is what leaves deposits on the disc...
If this doesn’t cure it; might be worth seeing if your callipers are sticking or if you’ve worn suspension components
Yup, I have read a few places that debunk the warping myth. Funny though, as 2 different garages I chatted to today both said "discs are warped mate, you'll need to replace the entire set up"
There is some knocking around the front suspension somewhere which is being looked at whilst it's in the garage this week having an oil service. Could be related? Will also try some hard braking, although I've just done a 300 mile round trip mostly on dual carriageway and I would have thought that may have cleared any deposits. It does appear to get worse the warmer the car gets if that makes any difference.
I'm going to ask them to look at the calipers as well, that sounds like it could be a possibility.
There is some knocking around the front suspension somewhere which is being looked at whilst it's in the garage this week having an oil service. Could be related? Will also try some hard braking, although I've just done a 300 mile round trip mostly on dual carriageway and I would have thought that may have cleared any deposits. It does appear to get worse the warmer the car gets if that makes any difference.
I'm going to ask them to look at the calipers as well, that sounds like it could be a possibility.
Edited by RanchoGrande on Monday 29th July 23:29
I would try putting Bosch pads and give it a couple of thousand miles in the hope they should wear off the pad deposits. I had the same issue with Brembo/Pagid disc/pad combo years ago - discs replaced by German Swedish Parts only for the wobble to return. Switched to (I think) Lockheed pads and it did take a good few thousand miles to get rid of the wobble.
naturalaspiration said:
I would try putting Bosch pads and give it a couple of thousand miles in the hope they should wear off the pad deposits. I had the same issue with Brembo/Pagid disc/pad combo years ago - discs replaced by German Swedish Parts only for the wobble to return. Switched to (I think) Lockheed pads and it did take a good few thousand miles to get rid of the wobble.
How/why do brake pad deposits happen? and can you see the deposits visually if you look at the discs?RanchoGrande said:
naturalaspiration said:
I would try putting Bosch pads and give it a couple of thousand miles in the hope they should wear off the pad deposits. I had the same issue with Brembo/Pagid disc/pad combo years ago - discs replaced by German Swedish Parts only for the wobble to return. Switched to (I think) Lockheed pads and it did take a good few thousand miles to get rid of the wobble.
How/why do brake pad deposits happen? and can you see the deposits visually if you look at the discs?The disc runout can only be measured with a micrometer. Pad transfer is normal but excessive and uneven isn't. Why it happens? I would think it is expected that the softer pad material, under high pressure and temperature, would embed itself into the microscopic pores in the hard cast iron disc surface, as it is grinding it slowly away. Why some combinations of pads and discs are more prone to uneven deposits? I haven't a clue tbh.
naturalaspiration said:
The disc runout can only be measured with a micrometer. Pad transfer is normal but excessive and uneven isn't. Why it happens? I would think it is expected that the softer pad material, under high pressure and temperature, would embed itself into the microscopic pores in the hard cast iron disc surface, as it is grinding it slowly away. Why some combinations of pads and discs are more prone to uneven deposits? I haven't a clue tbh.
Picking up the car tomorrow - my indy acknowledged the wobble, but did not check the discs as he couldn't find the tool to do it 
Said he doesn't know what's causing it, as visually it all looks good. Also have a knock on the suspension; they couldn't figure that one out either. Apparently there are no signs of any play in the various joints and the top mounts are fine. Thinks they will have to strip down the suspension to figure out which bits need replacing - possibly the shock absorber?
Oh, and my A/C condenser is leaking, the gearbox sump is leaking oil plus I have an oil leak under the engine. FFS!
Any MOT place can check joints for play without dismantling the suspension. As to the leaks if not excessive and not an MOT failure just live with it... the only thing than can cause issues is if the output shaft seal is leaking and the oil reaches the driveshaft bearing rubber mount and the flex disc - resulting in their rapid deterioration.
naturalaspiration said:
Any MOT place can check joints for play without dismantling the suspension. As to the leaks if not excessive and not an MOT failure just live with it... the only thing than can cause issues is if the output shaft seal is leaking and the oil reaches the driveshaft bearing rubber mount and the flex disc - resulting in their rapid deterioration.
I'm planning to live with the oil leak but will be getting the leaky gearbox sorted as it just needs a new sump. I lived with oil leaks on my e46 for a long time so I'm not overly concerned. It's the brakes and suspension which is my focus and they are the bits they can't figure out...
If it didn’t do it before then it’s most likely pad deposits. I had some Brembo’s with Ferrodo pads that did the same thing, after a few 100-0mph stops the deposits wore away.
Don’t forget to make sure after you’ve done this not to sit with your foot on the brake or the pads will leave new deposits from the hot discs.
Don’t forget to make sure after you’ve done this not to sit with your foot on the brake or the pads will leave new deposits from the hot discs.
Do 10 hard brakes from 70mph down to 10mph.
That should clear any pad deposits.
But I reckon it is suspension or simply wheel balance.
Also, take it to someone who knows how to check properly, you don't need top strip it down.
When are you feeling/hearing a clunk from the suspension?
That should clear any pad deposits.
But I reckon it is suspension or simply wheel balance.
Also, take it to someone who knows how to check properly, you don't need top strip it down.
When are you feeling/hearing a clunk from the suspension?
gizlaroc said:
Do 10 hard brakes from 70mph down to 10mph.
That should clear any pad deposits.
But I reckon it is suspension or simply wheel balance.
Also, take it to someone who knows how to check properly, you don't need top strip it down.
When are you feeling/hearing a clunk from the suspension?
Will try the braking suggestion before I take it to the garage again later on this week. As for the knocking, its coming from the passenger side, happens when I'm going over bumps and turning at the same time. Garage thinks it could be the shock absorber or the top mount, but needs to strip it down to make sure. As for the wheels, apparently both my front wheels are buckled - this is consistent with the health check that BMW did the other week when it was in for a recall. Could this be making the brakes judder?That should clear any pad deposits.
But I reckon it is suspension or simply wheel balance.
Also, take it to someone who knows how to check properly, you don't need top strip it down.
When are you feeling/hearing a clunk from the suspension?
Gassing Station | BMW General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff