RE: Harley-Davidson Milwaukee-Eight: PH2
Discussion
Bonefish Blues said:
Thread prompted me to look at the Indian site - I knew a little about their history but didn't know they were still in existence. Were I in the market, one of theirs all day long over a Hog.
Back in the market. Polaris bought the brand about 5 years ago to compete directly with Harley. bogie said:
Mmm...do you think Trump rides a Harley too ? 
or could we perhaps draw a correlation between the 250,000 new US Harley buyers per year and Trump voters?
Good point, don't they get like 48% of new sales in the states? That's too accurate to be a coincidence or could we perhaps draw a correlation between the 250,000 new US Harley buyers per year and Trump voters?
bogie said:
Yeah, whether HD are any good or not depends on the stick by which you are measuring
Now, at least the the Harley dominance in the US big twin market is being challenged by Indian. For the first time in many years there is a credible competitor in their market. Indian sales figures continue to rise year on year just as Harley are going down. Indian only need 5k out of 250k Harley buyers to change their mind each year and to Indian sales the growth is huge.
..... So Harley respond with revised models/engines, and launch products down market where Indian dont have an equivalent product in a bid to capture a new customer base .....its one of the few options they have left
If you change the word indian for victory your post could be 8-10 years old .Now, at least the the Harley dominance in the US big twin market is being challenged by Indian. For the first time in many years there is a credible competitor in their market. Indian sales figures continue to rise year on year just as Harley are going down. Indian only need 5k out of 250k Harley buyers to change their mind each year and to Indian sales the growth is huge.
..... So Harley respond with revised models/engines, and launch products down market where Indian dont have an equivalent product in a bid to capture a new customer base .....its one of the few options they have left
bimsb6 said:
bogie said:
Yeah, whether HD are any good or not depends on the stick by which you are measuring
Now, at least the the Harley dominance in the US big twin market is being challenged by Indian. For the first time in many years there is a credible competitor in their market. Indian sales figures continue to rise year on year just as Harley are going down. Indian only need 5k out of 250k Harley buyers to change their mind each year and to Indian sales the growth is huge.
..... So Harley respond with revised models/engines, and launch products down market where Indian dont have an equivalent product in a bid to capture a new customer base .....its one of the few options they have left
If you change the word indian for victory your post could be 8-10 years old .Now, at least the the Harley dominance in the US big twin market is being challenged by Indian. For the first time in many years there is a credible competitor in their market. Indian sales figures continue to rise year on year just as Harley are going down. Indian only need 5k out of 250k Harley buyers to change their mind each year and to Indian sales the growth is huge.
..... So Harley respond with revised models/engines, and launch products down market where Indian dont have an equivalent product in a bid to capture a new customer base .....its one of the few options they have left
107Cu In and 112ft/lb? Pah. The Indian Thunderstroike motor is 110Cu In, and I had mine dyno'd last week at 115 ft/lb...but enough of the cock waving for Indian....
I do have to stick up for HD here in that these are not sports bikes - never meant to be. There comes a stage in some bikers' lives when simply having the fastest bike in town, and riding is as fast as you can, loses it's appeal. Really, there does. It took me maybe 35+ years of riding to accept it, but having had the GPz1100 sat unused for more years than I care to remember I had to really re-think what it was that I really enjoyed about motorcycling.
And a lot if that was 'feel'; I'd moved on/up to faster and smoother 'fours' and while 'turbine smooth' seemed an attractive goal at the time, in retrospect I'd forgotten just how good a big twin felt. And then there was the challenge of riding - the fun parts I recalled was trying to ride well on the bike that really wasn't wanting to have much of it, not riding so far inside the bikes capabilities that the only limitation was road safety.
To me it's all a bit like steam trains and electric trains. If you want the quickest most-powerful locomotive it's electric all the way...but there's a certain joy in going half the speed pulled by steam. How do you explain it? Who knows - the noise? the basic simplicity? ...just 'the feel'? And that's really the point of HDs, and of course Indians. I've had, and continue to get, far more pleasure riding a massive (and heavy) 1800cc v-twin than I ever got on a sports bike. But it's 'pleasure' or 'satisfaction' rather than 'thrills'.
And let's not forget that they (HD and Indian) make fabulous tourers. I've done many tours in the company of more typical BMW/Honda/Kawasaki touring bikes and the Indian has never been found wanting...indeed I've been about the only one not complaining about a sore ass, neck, or whatever else. I've done 600+ miles in a day no problems (I nipped out for a 500 mile trip last Thursday) and indeed apart from fuel and calls of nature I would expect to be able to ride until bed time.
...but I'd still never buy a Harley
I do have to stick up for HD here in that these are not sports bikes - never meant to be. There comes a stage in some bikers' lives when simply having the fastest bike in town, and riding is as fast as you can, loses it's appeal. Really, there does. It took me maybe 35+ years of riding to accept it, but having had the GPz1100 sat unused for more years than I care to remember I had to really re-think what it was that I really enjoyed about motorcycling.
And a lot if that was 'feel'; I'd moved on/up to faster and smoother 'fours' and while 'turbine smooth' seemed an attractive goal at the time, in retrospect I'd forgotten just how good a big twin felt. And then there was the challenge of riding - the fun parts I recalled was trying to ride well on the bike that really wasn't wanting to have much of it, not riding so far inside the bikes capabilities that the only limitation was road safety.
To me it's all a bit like steam trains and electric trains. If you want the quickest most-powerful locomotive it's electric all the way...but there's a certain joy in going half the speed pulled by steam. How do you explain it? Who knows - the noise? the basic simplicity? ...just 'the feel'? And that's really the point of HDs, and of course Indians. I've had, and continue to get, far more pleasure riding a massive (and heavy) 1800cc v-twin than I ever got on a sports bike. But it's 'pleasure' or 'satisfaction' rather than 'thrills'.
And let's not forget that they (HD and Indian) make fabulous tourers. I've done many tours in the company of more typical BMW/Honda/Kawasaki touring bikes and the Indian has never been found wanting...indeed I've been about the only one not complaining about a sore ass, neck, or whatever else. I've done 600+ miles in a day no problems (I nipped out for a 500 mile trip last Thursday) and indeed apart from fuel and calls of nature I would expect to be able to ride until bed time.
Prof Prolapse said:
I'd prefer a lemonade analogy.
Honda sell lemonade which is fairly pleasant, if a little bland, and charge £1 a cup. It hits the spot.
Harley Davidson sell lemonade which rather than being made from lemons, uses feculent goats' piss...
Not quite right. I'd perhaps go with Honda sell a beer made in vast quantities in some sterile stainless steel plant - rebuilt and redesigned for efficiency 10 times in the last 50 years. £3.50 a pint out of some pressurised aluminium cask, and tastes very nice. Harley make a bourbon in the same plant that's been making it for 100 years, and still use wooden barrels, and charge £8 a shot. The beer and the bourbon taste totally different - pretty much everyone likes the beer...but a few folks like the bourbon. Honda sell lemonade which is fairly pleasant, if a little bland, and charge £1 a cup. It hits the spot.
Harley Davidson sell lemonade which rather than being made from lemons, uses feculent goats' piss...
...but I'd still never buy a Harley
unsprung said:
It's the meme that will never go away:
A devoutly traditional machine in Blighty is treated with reverence -- "Oooh, ain't she a beaut, keeping the pure experience alive don'tcha know, chin-chin, lovely Mate" -- while a similar thing from America is greeted with titter and tee-hee and comparisons to claptrap Soviet garbage.
I'd say the same thing about a Royal Enfield to be fair, if someone gets a classic I get that, but dropping £30k plus on a bike that was designed in the dark ages who's only talent is turning petrol into a horrible noise, I don't get it, but to each their own.A devoutly traditional machine in Blighty is treated with reverence -- "Oooh, ain't she a beaut, keeping the pure experience alive don'tcha know, chin-chin, lovely Mate" -- while a similar thing from America is greeted with titter and tee-hee and comparisons to claptrap Soviet garbage.
I work in the senior market, it's often cited at conferences and the like that harley Davidson's competition isn't other motorbikes but conservatories.
People retire, have a bit of cash, and think "which should I buy".
This is why Buell exists. It's a Harley for young people. Much like Diet Coke is for girls and Coke Zero is for boys.
People retire, have a bit of cash, and think "which should I buy".
This is why Buell exists. It's a Harley for young people. Much like Diet Coke is for girls and Coke Zero is for boys.
I'd quite like to see them develop an over-square V-twin and slot it into a modernised XR1200. A rev limit of >11k, and >130hp would be a revelation and probably catch a wider audience.
It would catch my eye anyway. They do a roaring trade, typically, selling £30k tourers equipped with comparitively stone age tech when you look at manufacturers like Ducati, KTM, BMW, Honda....
Good luck to them, but the Road King style doesn't speak to me even slightly.
It would catch my eye anyway. They do a roaring trade, typically, selling £30k tourers equipped with comparitively stone age tech when you look at manufacturers like Ducati, KTM, BMW, Honda....
Good luck to them, but the Road King style doesn't speak to me even slightly.
simonrockman said:
I work in the senior market, it's often cited at conferences and the like that harley Davidson's competition isn't other motorbikes but conservatories.
People retire, have a bit of cash, and think "which should I buy".
This is why Buell exists. It's a Harley for young people. Much like Diet Coke is for girls and Coke Zero is for boys.
People retire, have a bit of cash, and think "which should I buy".
This is why Buell exists. It's a Harley for young people. Much like Diet Coke is for girls and Coke Zero is for boys.
Buell haven't been around since 2009 .
black-k1 said:
I think your definition of a "good engine" differs greatly from my definition. Compared to other Harley engines it may stand up pretty well but I against engines from other manufacturers ... 
When it comes to H-D, context is everything. To some, they are the perfect bike to go very long distances with - I did 1200km in one day and was not tired. To others, they are something to laugh at because they are not chasing numbers and conforming to what they think.
I always find the reverse-snobism against H-D as funny as the way some H-D riders hate everything else, or the BMW adventure riders dressed like S&M clowns with 3 luggage racks to go 10 miles. Each to their own.
Those engines serve a good purpose. I am fond of them.
joema said:
must admit I wouldn't mind one sometimes for cruising empty wide roads in the US. They seem suited to that.
But then I remember I live in the UK.
And they're not the only make suited to cruising empty wide roads in the US. Most alternatives appear to offer better "everything" other than the name!But then I remember I live in the UK.
All credit to HD. They've made a lot of money out of selling "a dream" that's never really existed on the back of technology that is outdated and has been superseded by just about everyone.
unsprung said:
Walter Sobchak said:
1745cc?!, I wonder if they've touched the 100 BHP mark yet .
It's the meme that will never go away: .A devoutly traditional machine in Blighty is treated with reverence -- "Oooh, ain't she a beaut, keeping the pure experience alive don'tcha know, chin-chin, lovely Mate" -- while a similar thing from America is greeted with titter and tee-hee and comparisons to claptrap Soviet garbage.
Pothole said:
unsprung said:
Walter Sobchak said:
1745cc?!, I wonder if they've touched the 100 BHP mark yet .
It's the meme that will never go away: .A devoutly traditional machine in Blighty is treated with reverence -- "Oooh, ain't she a beaut, keeping the pure experience alive don'tcha know, chin-chin, lovely Mate" -- while a similar thing from America is greeted with titter and tee-hee and comparisons to claptrap Soviet garbage.
Harley have had to add some limited liquid cooling to the latest engine, not sure how popular that is in sales numbers though with their traditional US customer base.
If the customers want air cooled big engines, who else makes one vastly superior ? Sure Indian have a nice engine, but I dont think its any "better" in measurable terms...not like its 20% more powerful or fuel efficient...... Worse in fact with regard to heat.
I rode an Indian Roadmaster 3000 miles in May across the US and when it was 30+ ambient the heat coming off the engine was unbearable. ......I was starting to dream about the BMW K1600 I should have perhaps hired instead LOL
...apparently the latest Harley engine runs a lot cooler (funny what those little radiator things can do) and this has become a key selling point versus the Indian alternative....
Not that im in the market for either, although the Indian did otherwise do a fine job for comfort, luggage space, gizmos, ride quality....
If the customers want air cooled big engines, who else makes one vastly superior ? Sure Indian have a nice engine, but I dont think its any "better" in measurable terms...not like its 20% more powerful or fuel efficient...... Worse in fact with regard to heat.
I rode an Indian Roadmaster 3000 miles in May across the US and when it was 30+ ambient the heat coming off the engine was unbearable. ......I was starting to dream about the BMW K1600 I should have perhaps hired instead LOL
...apparently the latest Harley engine runs a lot cooler (funny what those little radiator things can do) and this has become a key selling point versus the Indian alternative....
Not that im in the market for either, although the Indian did otherwise do a fine job for comfort, luggage space, gizmos, ride quality....
black-k1 said:
There is also a huge difference between a manufacturer who produces a retro engine as one part of a wider line up vs. a manufacturer who only offers a retro engine, and who has only ever offered retro engines since way back when retro was actually current!
The v rod seems to have passed you by then , water cooled , dohc , fuel injected .been around since 1999 i believe, producing more power than the current bmw twin of greater engine capacity .Bonefish Blues said:
Why would they still be using pushrods (serious Q) in their new engine?
Is it just their "thing"?
Because that's what sells to the traditionialists in their biggest market,namely the USA.Is it just their "thing"?
Even now, lot of die hard Harleyists deride the V-Rod engine as being a "bit modern" and are against the water cooling on the Rushmore & Milwauke engines.
Although HD is seen as low tech, in 1976 they were developing the NOVA engine with Porsche and the line would have included modular liquid-cooled double overhead cam engines in 400 or 500cc increments: a 60 degree V-twin displacing 400cc or 500cc, a V-4 displacing 800cc or 1000cc and a V-6 displacing 1200cc or 1500cc.
The bigger engine was 135hp.
This was coming to fruition right at the time when Willie G and the HD execs bought the company back from AMF and the NOVA engine was dropped, partly for marketing purposes but mostly costs.
What coud have been 40 years ago.
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