Helmet cam catches rider crash

Helmet cam catches rider crash

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mak

1,434 posts

225 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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BrassMan said:
Even this n00bscrub knows that counter steering is what happens, not what you do.

Join me in posting less and riding more?
biggrin I think you have put that very eloquently and the same effect could have been achieved with a few swear words and someone's feeling hurt smile

tvrolet

4,251 posts

281 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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...and so we're back to countersteering again rolleyes
Unless folks have been doing it (without assigning it a name) for over 100 years no bikes would have been getting round corners at much above walking pace. Seems to be a bit like folks making a big deal that you must remember to swallow when you put food in your mouth. We all do it - why do we need to over-think it?

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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tvrolet said:
...and so we're back to countersteering again rolleyes
Unless folks have been doing it (without assigning it a name) for over 100 years no bikes would have been getting round corners at much above walking pace. Seems to be a bit like folks making a big deal that you must remember to swallow when you put food in your mouth. We all do it - why do we need to over-think it?
Completely agree, it’s one new rider overthinking the whole part and then deciding that those with experience are old timers with little to offer hehe

carinaman

21,206 posts

171 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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I think it was quite decent of the chap on the BMW to stop, turnaround and help the chap on the KTM, even if it was a gamble given he could've been identified by the Go-Pro footage.

mckeann

2,986 posts

228 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing to be in complete control and understanding of the steering process on a bike. If you understand it, you can steer quicker and be less likely to freak out in the event of a surprise. Better to have all the knowledge, no?

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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mckeann said:
Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing to be in complete control and understanding of the steering process on a bike. If you understand it, you can steer quicker and be less likely to freak out in the event of a surprise. Better to have all the knowledge, no?
Have you seen the video that Berty3000 is using to demonstrate countersteering? I’m quite happy that countersteering is a thing and how it works, but the video that’s purporting to demonstrate it is ridiculous. I’m also pretty certain that we all do it all the time when we’re riding, albeit some consciously, some subconsciously. Equally some do it more emphatically than others.

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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carinaman said:
I think it was quite decent of the chap on the BMW to stop, turnaround and help the chap on the KTM, even if it was a gamble given he could've been identified by the Go-Pro footage.
I’d have had a look for the GoPro and tried to get rid of it. I wonder if he even knew there was a GoPro recording them though?

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
And what are your views how much the rider countersteered on the video that Berty posted?

carinaman

21,206 posts

171 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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bogie said:
Birky_41 said:
Some serious target fixation going on right there
Exactly what I thought...perhaps not so experienced, and more interested in filming himself following his mate at high speed than focusing on the business of turning the bike into the corner.....
I'd agree that he may've been acting up for the camera and more interested in getting the footage than riding the bike.

From the local newspaper report I think it said the chap on the BMW had had his full licence for 2 years and sold the bike 2 days after that accident, and the KTM Go Pro chap had been riding 3 to 4 times longer, so my current understanding is the least experienced rider was the one that was ahead and turned around.

FazerBoy

953 posts

149 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
With the benefit of thirty-five years of riding experience I agree with this.

Yes, one can potter about without really understanding the physics behind counter-steering and without consciously using it, but in an emergency situation like the one above, when the rider is steaming into a corner much too fast and is in a panic, the only way to get round without crashing is to consciously utilise counter-steering and push that inside bar forcefully. 'Looking where one wants to go' is not going to save a situation like this without the positive input to the bars.

As with any other physical skill, it has to be practised repeatedly so that it becomes second-nature. Instead of arguing the point on here I would urge those who don't think it is useful to 'overthink' it to just try it out next time you take a sharpish bend at speed. Look through the corner and consciously push the inside bar (ie the left bar on a lefthander and the right bar on a right-hander) and see how much more accurately the bike can be placed on the road depending on the amount of pressure exerted.

And yes, I think the chap in the video could have saved himself if he had understood and utilised counter-steering in that situation, even at the speed he was going.



carinaman

21,206 posts

171 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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Thanks Fazer Boy.

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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FazerBoy said:
With the benefit of thirty-five years of riding experience I agree with this.

Yes, one can potter about without really understanding the physics behind counter-steering and without consciously using it, but in an emergency situation like the one above, when the rider is steaming into a corner much too fast and is in a panic, the only way to get round without crashing is to consciously utilise counter-steering and push that inside bar forcefully. 'Looking where one wants to go' is not going to save a situation like this without the positive input to the bars.

As with any other physical skill, it has to be practised repeatedly so that it becomes second-nature. Instead of arguing the point on here I would urge those who don't think it is useful to 'overthink' it to just try it out next time you take a sharpish bend at speed. Look through the corner and consciously push the inside bar (ie the left bar on a lefthander and the right bar on a right-hander) and see how much more accurately the bike can be placed on the road depending on the amount of pressure exerted.

And yes, I think the chap in the video could have saved himself if he had understood and utilised counter-steering in that situation, even at the speed he was going.
Nobody is answering the question though.

Countersteering on its own wouldn’t have helped the Triumph rider in Berty’s Video, or the bloke who is the subject of the topic. Both of them looked at the thing that was worrying them and that’s why they hit it.

If either had looked out, round and through the corner to where they wanted to go then they’d have made the corner and they’d have subconsciously countersteered their way round the corner.

If both continued to look at the danger point and tried to countersteer then they’d have crashed anyway. It’s nigh on impossible to steer a bike one way whilst looking the other way at anything more than walking speed and even then the bike will go where you’re looking as your eyes will tell your brain what to get your arms to do.

cmaguire

3,589 posts

108 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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This counter steering debate reminds me of a lot of the threads on the advanced driving forum (I'm surprised some of those people ever go anywhere they spend so much time over-thinking the most trivial or blatently obvious aspects of driving).

Counter steering has about as much relevance to the two clips on here as rear wheel steering does.
In the first clip, target fixation over-rides everything else.
And in the second clip, we get target fixation again with panic braking as the response. And once the front end went wobbly he might just as well have jumped off the bike, the bike was almost certain to hit the truck whatever he did.

Utterly st riding in both cases. I've often thought, and the first clip made me think about it, that performance twin cylinder bikes with the easy way in which they allow riding at 7/10ths due to the torque-laden mid-range, end up convincing a lot of st riders that they have more talent than they really do.
A bit like BMW 530/535Ds in the car world. Or the whole modern turbo diesel in general.

FazerBoy

953 posts

149 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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Gavia said:
Nobody is answering the question though.

Countersteering on its own wouldn’t have helped the Triumph rider in Berty’s Video, or the bloke who is the subject of the topic. Both of them looked at the thing that was worrying them and that’s why they hit it.

If either had looked out, round and through the corner to where they wanted to go then they’d have made the corner and they’d have subconsciously countersteered their way round the corner.

If both continued to look at the danger point and tried to countersteer then they’d have crashed anyway. It’s nigh on impossible to steer a bike one way whilst looking the other way at anything more than walking speed and even then the bike will go where you’re looking as your eyes will tell your brain what to get your arms to do.
I disagree. Looking through a corner will work while travelling at a more moderate speed (because moderate counter-steering is automatically taking place) but not at high speed while panicking. The latter will require a quicker and more forceful input at the bars.

For those of you out there who are prepared to be open-minded just try it as I recommended above and come back and report your findings. Approach a bend at varying speeds and experiment with consciously pushing the inside bar as you enter the corner. Experiment with different speeds and different bar pressures and you will see for yourself how much more accurately and confidently the bike can be placed on the road. Then come back and let us know how you got on.





Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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FazerBoy said:
I disagree. Looking through a corner will work while travelling at a more moderate speed (because moderate counter-steering is automatically taking place) but not at high speed while panicking. The latter will require a quicker and more forceful input at the bars.

For those of you out there who are prepared to be open-minded just try it as I recommended above and come back and report your findings. Approach a bend at varying speeds and experiment with consciously pushing the inside bar as you enter the corner. Experiment with different speeds and different bar pressures and you will see for yourself how much more accurately and confidently the bike can be placed on the road. Then come back and let us know how you got on.
I’ll be honest, I’m sick of being told how to ride by people who are either newbies, inexperienced, or probably never been anywhere but on a gentle trip on the roads. I’m not saying I’m a fast rider, because I’m not, but I’m pretty certain that I know what I’m talking about.

The idea that someone who’s panicking and staring at a truck / hedge is going to have the ability to suddenly consciously decide to make a steering input the way it’s being described is bks.

Countersteering is not a black art, it’s a basic part of making any two wheeled vehicle go round a corner once you’re doing more than walking pace. Yes, you can push harder on the inside of a bar and the bike will turn quicker, it that’s it really, nothing else to it. I’ll also bet that most people haven’t even come close to the limit on that either.

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Sunday 14th January 2018
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Ok, I’ll take you off the list, but others are still on it, so be warned hehe

FazerBoy

953 posts

149 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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Gavia said:
Countersteering is not a black art, it’s a basic part of making any two wheeled vehicle go round a corner once you’re doing more than walking pace. Yes, you can push harder on the inside of a bar and the bike will turn quicker, it that’s it really, nothing else to it. I’ll also bet that most people haven’t even come close to the limit on that either.
Agreed.

Gavia said:
The idea that someone who’s panicking and staring at a truck / hedge is going to have the ability to suddenly consciously decide to make a steering input the way it’s being described is bks
The point I was making is that if that rider had been taught counter-steering and practised it regularly so that it became second-nature he would have been able to get round the corner despite having gone in too hot.

I was never told anything about counter-steering when I learned to ride and for the next ten years or so I managed to ride all manner of sports bikes fairly quickly without falling off on corners. This of course bears out the fact that it is indeed not a black art and happens naturally.

I first came across the term when I read a copy of 'A Twist of the Wrist' by Keith Code and subsequently attended the California Superbike School in an effort to improve my riding. I found that consciously employing counter-steering enabled me to take corners faster yet in more safety then before. I'm not sure what's controversial about that.






Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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FazerBoy said:
The point I was making is that if that rider had been taught counter-steering and practised it regularly so that it became second-nature he would have been able to get round the corner despite having gone in too hot.

I was never told anything about counter-steering when I learned to ride and for the next ten years or so I managed to ride all manner of sports bikes fairly quickly without falling off on corners. This of course bears out the fact that it is indeed not a black art and happens naturally.

I first came across the term when I read a copy of 'A Twist of the Wrist' by Keith Code and subsequently attended the California Superbike School in an effort to improve my riding. I found that consciously employing counter-steering enabled me to take corners faster yet in more safety then before. I'm not sure what's controversial about that.
He only wemt in too hot for himself, getting round that corner at the speed he was doing shouldn’t have been difficult. It went wrong when he loooked at the truck and that was it, the bike went there, he panicked, grabbed some brake, locked The for t and as soon as he released the bike went into a bit of a tank slapper.

I repeat no amount of countersteering will save you when you’re looking at the thing you want to avoid. People get way too giddy about the Twist of the worst book and video. Do the course, learn some more and you’ll see that it’s one piece of a much bigger jigsaw. I’ve got a mate who qualified as a coach with CSS. He helps me on race weekends and has coached a few pro racers in his time.

The controversy is that you have no way of gauging how much you countersteered previously unless you have someone assessing your riding for you at all times. Many people think they’re doing more countersteering when actually all that’s happened is they’ve moved backwards from subconscious competence to conscious competence.

However, the single most important thing when riding and the one thing that you can not override (unless deliberately pissing about) is that where you look is where you will go. Both riders on both videos looked where they didn’t want to go and went there. No amount of reading or watching videos will override the natural reaction to then stare harder and brake like fk and keep staring and braking until the accident happens. It happens on track all the time and on the road too.

Pravus1

235 posts

105 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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I'd have to disagree with that. I remember going into a corner faster than I wanted once, looking at the verge and interally screaming to myself "Push the bar, the bike will go lower" and it did. Drilling things into yourself can help in these panic moments.

moanthebairns

17,917 posts

197 months

Monday 15th January 2018
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If you want to practice counter steering push your trolley in Asda.

If you still don't get it or think you don't get it ride a fking segway. I was head over my arse within seconds of going on one then again and again as it steers like a car but has bars. Trying to ride one as quickly as you can is the most unnatural thing for a biker.