Track session lesson, novice!

Track session lesson, novice!

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Discussion

knitware

Original Poster:

1,473 posts

192 months

Thursday 18th January 2018
quotequote all
Hello,

Spring is on the way!

I'm thinking of doing the California Superbike school in May, level 1. Just gauging opinion, is this the best option for a novice, has anyone had experience of CSS?

dibblecorse

6,872 posts

191 months

Friday 19th January 2018
quotequote all
Run a search, lots of threads on CSS, in my opinion, well worth it, but not cheap, as a first step I'd call No Limits and get the dates for their Novice only days and get some initial instruction there, they are really quiet good then go CSS after that ....

BobSaunders

3,028 posts

154 months

Friday 19th January 2018
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To build on Dibblecore's message and to inspire you with confidence on doing a track day first before CSS - I've completed a no limits day at Outlon park as a total total novice (and technically still am..) and survived fine. I rented a bike from Small Boys (A++++)

Matt (owner of small boys) talked me through it all - what to expect, and when to expect it.

Gavia and Hedgeb came and said hello and gave me a couple of tips. I met Mckean briefly, and someone else.

No limits instructors gave me some tips and came out with me to learn the track and coached me through a couple of laps.

I assumed i would be a rolling roadblock all day - i wasn't. Only a few people passed me, but they navigated around me.. Including one of the haslam's on the inside of a corner, at a considerable speed, and thoroughly impressed upon me that i was a total novice and had considerable learning to do..

I was bolt upright pretty much all the way round and doing shoulder checks - no one gave a sh*t.

I tried to stay predictable in the corners, and both during my entrance and exit.

Everyone was friendly.

I ensured i went out near the back of the group, and by doing so it minimised my exposure to bunching and traffic from the 'faster' novice's (hence minimal overtaking). It worked for me.

To again impress on anyone how friendly it was, no one gave a sh*t that i was bolt upright, a rolling roadblock, everyone wanted to help each other, and everyone was prepared to muck in.

However, from what i have read CSS will build more confidence and understanding into cornering, but it is far from necessary to get onto a track. It would help to progress. It is on my list of to do.

Edited by BobSaunders on Friday 19th January 10:58

dibblecorse

6,872 posts

191 months

Friday 19th January 2018
quotequote all
BobSaunders said:
To build on Dibblecore's message and to inspire you with confidence on doing a track day first before CSS - I've completed a no limits day at Outlon park as a total total novice (and technically still am..) and survived fine. I rented a bike from Small Boys (A++++)

Matt (owner of small boys) talked me through it all - what to expect, and when to expect it.

Gavia and Hedgeb came and said hello and gave me a couple of tips. I met Mckean briefly, and someone else.

No limits instructors gave me some tips and came out with me to learn the track and coached me through a couple of laps.

I assumed i would be a rolling roadblock all day - i wasn't. Only a few people passed me, but they navigated around me.. Including one of the haslam's on the inside of a corner, at a considerable speed, and thoroughly impressed upon me that i was a total novice and had considerable learning to do..

I was bolt upright pretty much all the way round and doing shoulder checks - no one gave a sh*t.

I tried to stay predictable in the corners, and both during my entrance and exit.

Everyone was friendly.

I ensured i went out near the back of the group, and by doing so it minimised my exposure to bunching and traffic from the 'faster' novice's (hence minimal overtaking). It worked for me.

To again impress on anyone how friendly it was, no one gave a sh*t that i was bolt upright, a rolling roadblock, everyone wanted to help each other, and everyone was prepared to muck in.

However, from what i have read CSS will build more confidence and understanding into cornering, but it is far from necessary to get onto a track. It would help to progress. It is on my list of to do.

Edited by BobSaunders on Friday 19th January 10:58
What he said .... and I couldn't be arsed to type ...... smile

BobSaunders

3,028 posts

154 months

Friday 19th January 2018
quotequote all
My work email is down - i'm filling my time here... :-)

obscene

5,174 posts

184 months

Friday 19th January 2018
quotequote all
The novice only days run by MSV/No Limits are really good. That's how I got started after winning a free track day with Michelin tyres for some competition and then got the bug. Book a novice day with No Limits and you'll be able to get free instruction, worth a punt. smile

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Friday 19th January 2018
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It doesn’t need to be a Novice day. Every normal trackday runs three groups in 20 minute sessions, Novice, Inters, Advanced. A 20 minute session is plenty for someone doing their first trackday. On No Limit day’s instruction is available all day and is free (unless you want all day tuition then there is a fee).

Go and enjoy a track-day for yourself. Nobody is expecting you to set lap records.

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Friday 19th January 2018
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No idea. I can’t see it being open pitlane at that level, but it’d be difficult to sell out three full novice groups too.

EDIT: details in link below. Looks like they run bikes and novice cars on the same day in different groups

http://www.msvtrackdays.com/bike/calendar/2018/feb...

They look like a good idea to me.

Edited by Gavia on Friday 19th January 23:49

555 Paul

782 posts

148 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
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I had a bad experience on a track day and it's really put me off. I was on a borrowed, breathed on 4XV R1 track bike and it was the fastest thing that I'd ever ridden, I'd only been riding about 2 years and I had only covered about 2,000 road miles at that point. I've now been riding 5 and a half years and still only covered about 5,000 miles which I feel leaves me lacking in experience.

I was on a track that I didn't know that well (one of the Rockingham infields). I was as fast as anyone else on the right handers, but I was so slow on left handers (I clipped the ground with my toe in the morning session and scared myself), I felt that I was a bloody liability after that. On this R1, I was pretty much the slowest thing out there in the novice session! That was my last time on track.

As a fast car driver that dented my confidence badly, I'm now taking to classic style motorcross tracks on a dirt bike to try and build my confidence.

With tuition do you get a 2 way radio where they can tell you not to be such a pussy?

I put my bad experience down to a low speed drop just 6 months after passing my test. It knocked the stuffing out of my confidence, only riding my new to me KTM on supermoto wheels seems to be restoring that confidence.

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Two way radio would be a really bad idea. They follow you to start with and get an idea of what the first thing is that needs looking at and then build from there. The problem is too many go on track and have one aim and that’s to get their kneedown, which is completely the wrong approach to going fast.

Learn the lines, ride steady and smooth and smooth becomes fast. Learn body position, cornering and you get to be a solid track rider. Too many ragged riders trying to copy Marquez’s style and thinking by being out of shape that they’re fast.

Feet down is a sign that you’re probably sitting incorrectly on the bike. Feet do go down, but a long time after knee and other things if done correctly.

Aa a side note, I think Rockingham is a really poor circuit for bikes.

555 Paul

782 posts

148 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Lines I have no problem with, I've done car track days and I've also done a couple of time attack events and I was at the sharp end. Put me on a bike though and I'm slow...

My problem at Rockingham was purely about turning left, you're right about body position, it was pointed out to me that I had my feet incorrectly on the pegs. I corrected that in the next session after chatting to someone in the pits but my confidence never returned, I wonder if that fear was also down to the fact that my crash was on the left, entering a side road.

Maybe I need to do another session on one of my own bikes at a circuit that I'm more comfortable on.

tjlazer

875 posts

173 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
555 Paul said:
I had a bad experience on a track day and it's really put me off. I was on a borrowed, breathed on 4XV R1 track bike and it was the fastest thing that I'd ever ridden, I'd only been riding about 2 years and I had only covered about 2,000 road miles at that point. I've now been riding 5 and a half years and still only covered about 5,000 miles which I feel leaves me lacking in experience.

I was on a track that I didn't know that well (one of the Rockingham infields). I was as fast as anyone else on the right handers, but I was so slow on left handers (I clipped the ground with my toe in the morning session and scared myself), I felt that I was a bloody liability after that. On this R1, I was pretty much the slowest thing out there in the novice session! That was my last time on track.

As a fast car driver that dented my confidence badly, I'm now taking to classic style motorcross tracks on a dirt bike to try and build my confidence.

With tuition do you get a 2 way radio where they can tell you not to be such a pussy?

I put my bad experience down to a low speed drop just 6 months after passing my test. It knocked the stuffing out of my confidence, only riding my new to me KTM on supermoto wheels seems to be restoring that confidence.
Try CSS i did level 1 last year and had a great time. No radio but they give plenty of instruction, mixing observations, a bit of following and plenty feedback. Really improved my positioning and setup for tackling bends. See previous threads but I absolutely think it was worth it. Take your own bike so you know the vehicle, it isn't the kind of event where you will bin it. Hell the first session is all in one gear, no brakes. They break it all down and build you up again.

WarnieV6GT

1,135 posts

198 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Gavia said:
No idea. I can’t see it being open pitlane at that level, but it’d be difficult to sell out three full novice groups too.

EDIT: details in link below. Looks like they run bikes and novice cars on the same day in different groups

http://www.msvtrackdays.com/bike/calendar/2018/feb...

They look like a good idea to me.

Edited by Gavia on Friday 19th January 23:49
They look really good and a great price as well. I want to book in for the 20th March but don't know weather to go on my current bike - an old 600 hornet or get my next bike a speed triple beforehand...

Obviously I'd rather do it on the speed triple but what if I bin It! ?

Do many come off or do you have to be riding like a complete tt for it to happen?

Gavia

7,627 posts

90 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
WarnieV6GT said:
They look really good and a great price as well. I want to book in for the 20th March but don't know weather to go on my current bike - an old 600 hornet or get my next bike a speed triple beforehand...

Obviously I'd rather do it on the speed triple but what if I bin It! ?

Do many come off or do you have to be riding like a complete tt for it to happen?
Some days will be a crashfest, some days won’t. The only reason you’ll crash is your ambition outweighs your talent. Whichever bike you’re on is likely to better than you are if you’re honest. You don’t have to be riding like a tt, many have silly crashes, such as panicking before a corner that they can get round with ease and running straight on.

Take the older bike as you’ll be more relaxed.


WarnieV6GT

1,135 posts

198 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Gavia said:
Some days will be a crashfest, some days won’t. The only reason you’ll crash is your ambition outweighs your talent. Whichever bike you’re on is likely to better than you are if you’re honest. You don’t have to be riding like a tt, many have silly crashes, such as panicking before a corner that they can get round with ease and running straight on.

Take the older bike as you’ll be more relaxed.
Cheers Gavia.

Your right, I would feel more relaxed on the hornet. My problem is, is that it's a bit small size wise for me and I'm pretty sure it'll be on the original rear shock. But it's just the 1st of many track days I suppose so sod it...

CAPP0

19,533 posts

202 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
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OP, and 555, have you thought about doing the Haslam school? It's less full-on than CSS and you'll also likely feel less pressure than a regular trackday. It's slightly dependent on who you get as your instructor but I did it twice, years ago now, and the instructors we (mate & I) had used the first session to suss out whether and how we could ride, then tuned the next sessions accordingly. You'll learn the basics of track riding, whereas CSS (which I've also done, up to L3) is more about making you better and faster. Haslam, then a few practice TDs, then CSS would be my recommendation.

For example, I think it's L1 at CSS where you have to lap without touching the brakes. At all. That's good for building skills but could freak you out if you haven't done any (or much) track time before.

knitware

Original Poster:

1,473 posts

192 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
dibblecorse said:
What he said .... and I couldn't be arsed to type ...... smile
smile So the synopsis is just do a track day, see if I like it and go from there.

Silverstone, no other reason other than its only as few miles away and it's a great track, do quite a few in the year so I booked in 15th April!

I think my strategy will be to take it easy and enjoy the unrestrictions of the road.


555 Paul

782 posts

148 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
CAPP0 said:
OP, and 555, have you thought about doing the Haslam school? It's less full-on than CSS and you'll also likely feel less pressure than a regular trackday. It's slightly dependent on who you get as your instructor but I did it twice, years ago now, and the instructors we (mate & I) had used the first session to suss out whether and how we could ride, then tuned the next sessions accordingly. You'll learn the basics of track riding, whereas CSS (which I've also done, up to L3) is more about making you better and faster. Haslam, then a few practice TDs, then CSS would be my recommendation.

For example, I think it's L1 at CSS where you have to lap without touching the brakes. At all. That's good for building skills but could freak you out if you haven't done any (or much) track time before.
Hi,

I have thought about it a few times, I really should get around to doing it. I looked into the CSS earlier after the recommendation and I was pleased to see that they run courses at Donington Park, it's even better that Ron Haslam's school is based there. I've done a car day there and loved the track, I'll get a day booked at Ron Haslam and go from there.

Thanks for the advice so far.

CarsOrBikes

1,135 posts

183 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
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I only ever did one track day which was actually a demo day for BMW back in around '04. Loved the opportunity to ride with nothing coming the other way, loved the fact CSS were there, and I asked if they could help me (despite feeling a twit asking), the guy said he'd watch me and left me to it, upright, wobbling, panicking in particular, then he came up out of the blue, tapped the back of his bike as if to say stay here, so I tried to, the worst thing attempting to deal with the horrendous panic approaching a bend.

The thing was, it was great, the guy showed that braking in a much better way, later actually, smooth but firm, more importantly I though, was on a completely different part of the track, staying out for a later much smoother turn in, amazing. I was still slow haha, and what totally ruined the day which CSS had absolutely no control over, partly because it was a BMW day, and the idea was you rode your bike then theirs, was that the lunatics that jumped on BMW's bikes rode like utter s and trashed several bikes. Surviving this they were all gobstes full of their track prowess laughing about there heroic offs while hanging about the photo van trying to get the picture of them in near death, not to mention the CSS riders or us others on track the bike they were riding could have killed as it went end over end down the road.

Since, I regularly attend Ty Croes to spectate at TD's, and really wish I could drag my confidence back up to try one. I have some wonderful bike I'd like to be able to try to ride in this environment, and am just left plain scared to be honest.

I've ridden all my life ok, and superbikes 17 years, I live on the Wirral near North Wales and go there a lot, and am not slow, but that is not the same as a track experience in any way whatsoever.

I too have witness the hangers off trying to get their knee down, and frankly wouldn't want to be near them on track, many look to be a total liability, just study some of the track day images of this and anyone can see their riding priority was anything to get off the bike to scratch a pad rather than be controlled and smooth.

Anyway I'm rambling,

One day I'll do it, I'm 52 in a minute, I've had a few big 'ish' pretty much head on incidents which weren't my fault (we all say that haha) and something like 12 operations, two major abdominal, yet I 'make' myself ride again to sort my head out and have got a lot of the confidence back, but it's hard, tiring, and required complete determination sometimes to get out and get on with it. So, I really really do want to try a TD, or training. I know I'm a good rider, I trust my friends that say that, it's not being big headed, but I suspect they know I need reassuring.

So this is a good thread, and nice to read the OP booked on, brave thing to do and I hope you update the thread with your experience if you can find it in the PH list haha.

Just my2p ;O)

Biker's Nemesis

38,536 posts

207 months

Sunday 21st January 2018
quotequote all
CarsOrBikes said:
I'm 52 in a minute,


Happy belated birthday.

52. Should you be riding bikes on track at that age?