RE: BMW's autonomous R1200GS on video
Discussion
Biker's Nemesis said:
No. I was traveling at no more than 10 mph down a bit of a bank and caught a bit of gravel which set the ABS off which in turn pushes the level out making the bike run over the junction into a live lane.
I've done the same with non ABS bikes many times on that junction but not run on
Number 2 then! I've done the same with non ABS bikes many times on that junction but not run on
black-k1 said:
I think that bikes used by police, paramedic and other "professional" motorcyclists represent a very small percentage of total motorcycle sales., even among larger capacity bikes. I think they'd also be the ones least "happy" with handing control of their lives over to any "active" automated process because their levels of training are likely to make then significantly better at managing risk than any technology we have now or a are likely to see in the foreseeable future.
As for electronic aids, you may love them but most motorcyclist don't. I am an electronic aids fan and have ABS bikes since the mid 80's when they fist appeared. However, despite 30+ years of evidence to show the advantages of ABS on bikes, it only became mainstream when the EU mandated it's fitting to new bikes. When there was an option, non-ABS equipped variants often out sold their ABS equipped equivalents even when the additional cost of the ABS was minimal, and that was bikes aimed at the motorcycling demographic deemed most likely to accept ABS.
Likewise with traction control. I would suggest that, anecdotally, one of the most asked traction control questions of forums (including this one) is "how to I switch my traction control off?". That is despite hard evidence of even god-like experienced motorcyclists ending up on their backside in situations where traction control would have unquestionably saved them.
I'll have to disagree with you on many fronts then.As for electronic aids, you may love them but most motorcyclist don't. I am an electronic aids fan and have ABS bikes since the mid 80's when they fist appeared. However, despite 30+ years of evidence to show the advantages of ABS on bikes, it only became mainstream when the EU mandated it's fitting to new bikes. When there was an option, non-ABS equipped variants often out sold their ABS equipped equivalents even when the additional cost of the ABS was minimal, and that was bikes aimed at the motorcycling demographic deemed most likely to accept ABS.
Likewise with traction control. I would suggest that, anecdotally, one of the most asked traction control questions of forums (including this one) is "how to I switch my traction control off?". That is despite hard evidence of even god-like experienced motorcyclists ending up on their backside in situations where traction control would have unquestionably saved them.
Also, I will add this; speaking solely for myself, I'm the first one to admit, believe it or not, that I am not a driving or riding god. I've done thousands of laps around circuits, and been passed by truly fast guys, enough to know I will never be at their level; their brains must be wired differently.
I've done many thousands of miles in crap UK weather simply commuting through the rain and general sludge, over all kinds of crappy road surfaces to get to work, only to be able to maybe enjoy the briefest of moments in my leisure time on a bike unquestionably not built for commuting. And yet, in all these moments where my skill and reaction level is not at the level of an amphetamined-up squirrel, having traction control on where we also have gravel and diesel soaked roads interspersed with standing water over the many painted lines on what passes for roads in this country, is something I will take with warm gratitude.
If others wish to switch off their rider aids, I say good luck to them! Although, my wife works in a neuro-disability ward in the NHS, and she hates me riding, because she sees enough of me at the best of times, and certainly doesn't want to see me at work...
big_rob_sydney said:
black-k1 said:
I think that bikes used by police, paramedic and other "professional" motorcyclists represent a very small percentage of total motorcycle sales., even among larger capacity bikes. I think they'd also be the ones least "happy" with handing control of their lives over to any "active" automated process because their levels of training are likely to make then significantly better at managing risk than any technology we have now or a are likely to see in the foreseeable future.
As for electronic aids, you may love them but most motorcyclist don't. I am an electronic aids fan and have ABS bikes since the mid 80's when they fist appeared. However, despite 30+ years of evidence to show the advantages of ABS on bikes, it only became mainstream when the EU mandated it's fitting to new bikes. When there was an option, non-ABS equipped variants often out sold their ABS equipped equivalents even when the additional cost of the ABS was minimal, and that was bikes aimed at the motorcycling demographic deemed most likely to accept ABS.
Likewise with traction control. I would suggest that, anecdotally, one of the most asked traction control questions of forums (including this one) is "how to I switch my traction control off?". That is despite hard evidence of even god-like experienced motorcyclists ending up on their backside in situations where traction control would have unquestionably saved them.
I'll have to disagree with you on many fronts then.As for electronic aids, you may love them but most motorcyclist don't. I am an electronic aids fan and have ABS bikes since the mid 80's when they fist appeared. However, despite 30+ years of evidence to show the advantages of ABS on bikes, it only became mainstream when the EU mandated it's fitting to new bikes. When there was an option, non-ABS equipped variants often out sold their ABS equipped equivalents even when the additional cost of the ABS was minimal, and that was bikes aimed at the motorcycling demographic deemed most likely to accept ABS.
Likewise with traction control. I would suggest that, anecdotally, one of the most asked traction control questions of forums (including this one) is "how to I switch my traction control off?". That is despite hard evidence of even god-like experienced motorcyclists ending up on their backside in situations where traction control would have unquestionably saved them.
Also, I will add this; speaking solely for myself, I'm the first one to admit, believe it or not, that I am not a driving or riding god. I've done thousands of laps around circuits, and been passed by truly fast guys, enough to know I will never be at their level; their brains must be wired differently.
I've done many thousands of miles in crap UK weather simply commuting through the rain and general sludge, over all kinds of crappy road surfaces to get to work, only to be able to maybe enjoy the briefest of moments in my leisure time on a bike unquestionably not built for commuting. And yet, in all these moments where my skill and reaction level is not at the level of an amphetamined-up squirrel, having traction control on where we also have gravel and diesel soaked roads interspersed with standing water over the many painted lines on what passes for roads in this country, is something I will take with warm gratitude.
If others wish to switch off their rider aids, I say good luck to them! Although, my wife works in a neuro-disability ward in the NHS, and she hates me riding, because she sees enough of me at the best of times, and certainly doesn't want to see me at work...
I have, for many years, been a supporter of the inclusion of technology to enhance the riding experience but I would suggest you only have to review the responses to this thread to see that it's likely that the view from the majority of motorcyclist is different. However, while I'm a great supporter of passive technology, that which supports my decisions and helps to keep them safe, I'm not a fan of active technology that makes decisions for me. Hence my suggestion that a "self riding bike" is a solution looking for a problem. But, if it works for you ...
black-k1 said:
I'm happy that you disagree and I really hope that, for some of the technology, you're right and I'm wrong.
I have, for many years, been a supporter of the inclusion of technology to enhance the riding experience but I would suggest you only have to review the responses to this thread to see that it's likely that the view from the majority of motorcyclist is different. However, while I'm a great supporter of passive technology, that which supports my decisions and helps to keep them safe, I'm not a fan of active technology that makes decisions for me. Hence my suggestion that a "self riding bike" is a solution looking for a problem. But, if it works for you ...
100% agree............I have, for many years, been a supporter of the inclusion of technology to enhance the riding experience but I would suggest you only have to review the responses to this thread to see that it's likely that the view from the majority of motorcyclist is different. However, while I'm a great supporter of passive technology, that which supports my decisions and helps to keep them safe, I'm not a fan of active technology that makes decisions for me. Hence my suggestion that a "self riding bike" is a solution looking for a problem. But, if it works for you ...
my TC never comes on, but i'm off road this weekend so I'll test it properly and turn it off for that experience too.
my ABS on the rear comes on quite often, but that's not intrusive.
my front ABS has come on twice since I've had the bike, neither time I felt I needed it, but it's a welcome addition in the crappy weather.
anything more than that, in my view, on a motorbike is never going to be welcome.
If you're too tired to be riding the thing, you shouldn't be riding the thing etc etc
Prof Prolapse said:
I mean it seems bloody obviously even for a grade C student of physics like myself that the engineering required to move a inherently unstable 350kg, two wheeled, object, within an exisiting framework, is vastly larger than the requirements of moving a 1kg, stable object at about, what, half the speed?
It's not earth-shattering developments, but let's not belittle the achievement here.
Not belittling an achievement here, but except at rest and very slow speeds a bike isn't inherently unstable. Once it's rolling the caster on the front wheel will keep things running straight and stable - no different really from riding hand-off. As kids on push-bikes (well, not actually 'on' push-bikes at the time) we used to sometimes 'race' them riderless - just run alongside launch them off upright and they keep going quite happily - then chase after them to try to catch them before they took out some unsuspecting pedestrian. Was a favourite pastime of ours on Portobello prom. It's not earth-shattering developments, but let's not belittle the achievement here.
But maybe it will address the counter steering argument (if there actually is a valid one) in terms of if there's no rider and no weight transfer, how did they get the bike to lean in the desired direction except by counter steering.
And maybe it also answers why BMW fit these monstrous square metal cases and boxes - it's for all the batteries and electronic gubbins.
Now let's see it pulling wheelies and doing stoppies.
tvrolet said:
Not belittling an achievement here, but except at rest and very slow speeds a bike isn't inherently unstable. Once it's rolling the caster on the front wheel will keep things running straight and stable - no different really from riding hand-off. As kids on push-bikes (well, not actually 'on' push-bikes at the time) we used to sometimes 'race' them riderless - just run alongside launch them off upright and they keep going quite happily - then chase after them to try to catch them before they took out some unsuspecting pedestrian. Was a favourite pastime of ours on Portobello prom.
No. If a vehicle will fall over without a constant supporting force, either by means of the stand when stationary, or sufficient forward momentum, by definition, it is "inherently" unstable. That is to say it has an intrinsic quality of lacking stability in it's unaltered state.
If you're not "belittling an achievement" I've no idea what you're getting at with your anecdote about childrens' bicycles. Of course two wheeled vehicles can be made stable. They couldn't be transport otherwise could they?
Prof Prolapse said:
tvrolet said:
Not belittling an achievement here, but except at rest and very slow speeds a bike isn't inherently unstable. Once it's rolling the caster on the front wheel will keep things running straight and stable - no different really from riding hand-off. As kids on push-bikes (well, not actually 'on' push-bikes at the time) we used to sometimes 'race' them riderless - just run alongside launch them off upright and they keep going quite happily - then chase after them to try to catch them before they took out some unsuspecting pedestrian. Was a favourite pastime of ours on Portobello prom.
No. If a vehicle will fall over without a constant supporting force, either by means of the stand when stationary, or sufficient forward momentum, by definition, it is "inherently" unstable. That is to say it has an intrinsic quality of lacking stability in it's unaltered state.
If you're not "belittling an achievement" I've no idea what you're getting at with your anecdote about childrens' bicycles. Of course two wheeled vehicles can be made stable. They couldn't be transport otherwise could they?
Now if you want a solution to a stationary or slow moving bike without gyros or other gysmos then Honda have it licked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWsBRgq7pk8
Now THAT is impressive - awesome actually; almost beyond belief with what can be achieved by simply controlling the front forks/wheel movement.
In comparison - BMW - meh...
tvrolet said:
almost beyond belief with what can be achieved by simply controlling the front forks/wheel movement.
In comparison - BMW - meh...
Oh, I don't know...In comparison - BMW - meh...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXMGi9kQ3TE
Biker's Nemesis said:
black-k1 said:
Steve Bass said:
Well I am a riding/driving God and it's as pointless and tits on a fish...
A riding/driving god with a small g please. There's more than one on this forum alone! 
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