Practising collision avoidance
Discussion
Recently back into biking. I'll be honest I have had a couple of near misses but yesterday it happened, blind left hand bend, speed a little high (I've been round there quicker in my car for sure but no 'slow' markings or danger signs prior to the bend) half way round the corner came upon a car performing a u turn, would be easy to blame them as it was a dangerous and stupid place to do it but old adage if you can't stop or change direction quick enough then you going to fast. I am fairly sure I froze jumped on the brake and stood the bike up but couldn't wipe off all the speed and hit the car by it's rear wheel at about 10 mph I am guessing. Quick somersault by me and I am sitting on the road shaken but basically ok, bike (ktm950) is suprisingly fine bar a few scratches.
So question is apart from slowing down being more careful and assuming round ever blind bend there is an idiot, is collision avoidance something you can actually practice on the road? I feel I could have reacted better and avoided the accident. I don't want to stop riding but I need to get safer.
So question is apart from slowing down being more careful and assuming round ever blind bend there is an idiot, is collision avoidance something you can actually practice on the road? I feel I could have reacted better and avoided the accident. I don't want to stop riding but I need to get safer.
Edited by Rocket. on Sunday 18th August 22:27
The old adage is being able to stop in the distance you can see ahead as you say but blind bends at speed can always up your risk.
Slow in fast out? Not aware of anything specific you can do once in a situation other than avoiding target fixation.
Slow in fast out? Not aware of anything specific you can do once in a situation other than avoiding target fixation.
Edited by 200Plus Club on Sunday 18th August 22:19
You can't practice it on the road imho, but there are courses out there. i2i's machine control 2 includes it
https://www.i2imca.com/About.asp
I had a scare the other week which really made me wonder about my emergency handling, chances are I'd just target fixate and have no chance, so I'll be doing both their courses next year to improve.
In my case I was lucky that I wasn't off the bike, but it was someone in a scaffolding van who stopped and looked at a junction and went anyway when they should've given way. He stopped half way into the carriageway and left enough room but I was really shaken by what could've been.
https://www.i2imca.com/About.asp
I had a scare the other week which really made me wonder about my emergency handling, chances are I'd just target fixate and have no chance, so I'll be doing both their courses next year to improve.
In my case I was lucky that I wasn't off the bike, but it was someone in a scaffolding van who stopped and looked at a junction and went anyway when they should've given way. He stopped half way into the carriageway and left enough room but I was really shaken by what could've been.
jjones said:
Only other thing is target fixation. Look where you want to go (not where you don't won't to go).
It's very difficult on a bike when an emergency situation arises not to look at the source though. It's human nature really. Done it myself once avoiding a car entering a roundabout and by the skin of my teeth ran up a slip road on loose gravel nearly dropped bike. Avoiding the situation where poss far preferable. It depends what you mean by practicing collision avoidance. Your speed and position of approach to any hazard are very much the main par of collision avoidance. Having maximum visibility around and through a hazard, in this case the bend, and travelling at a speed appropriate for that visibility are the biggest factors in collision avoidance. Read Motorcycle Roadcraft and do an advanced riding course like the IAM or RoSPA to learn and understand the techniques.
Learn how to use your brakes. There are two of them and both have an impact on your ability to stop. Both brakes should be used in all road circumstances so that when another "oh s
t" moment happens you instinctively do the right thing.
Rocket. said:
… jumped on the brake …
Learn how to use your brakes. There are two of them and both have an impact on your ability to stop. Both brakes should be used in all road circumstances so that when another "oh s
t" moment happens you instinctively do the right thing.I was thinking exactly the same thing the other day.
Not so much what you’ve written OP as if I’m honest that is a simple as youve written.. you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I corner quicker in a car than I do on a bike purely because in a car you can plant your foot through the brake pedal and all the techno wizzardry will likely keep you on the black stuff. Do that on a bike and you likely be off.
My experience was at a cross roads, my right of way, 50 limit. I was genuinely bimbling at about 45ish as the roads were damp and I wasn’t in a hurry. A Vectra was waiting on the near side junction, and as I closed in on him he pulled out, saw me, and then stopped covering 75% of the road width. Unfortunately my instinct was to stamp on the back brake which obviously locked up. If I’m honest I can’t even remember if I got anywhere near the front brake.
Because the back was locked and I was trying to steer around the front of his car and through the remaining gap I ended up sliding sideways. Fortunately I did have the presence of mind to get off the back back, the bike straightened up and i squirmed through the gap.
I think between me and the Vectra driver we could have fertilised many fields....
My worry is my instinct was to stand on the back brake. Not ideal at all. So like the OP, I have been pondering how to practice, or reprogram my brain for limit handling, and emergency brake situations as I’m aware my response is severely lacking.
Had Vectra man not stopped I’d have just ploughed into him with the back brake locked up. If I’d have applied a controlled front brake (I have abs) chances are I think I’d have possibly stopped.
Not so much what you’ve written OP as if I’m honest that is a simple as youve written.. you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I corner quicker in a car than I do on a bike purely because in a car you can plant your foot through the brake pedal and all the techno wizzardry will likely keep you on the black stuff. Do that on a bike and you likely be off.
My experience was at a cross roads, my right of way, 50 limit. I was genuinely bimbling at about 45ish as the roads were damp and I wasn’t in a hurry. A Vectra was waiting on the near side junction, and as I closed in on him he pulled out, saw me, and then stopped covering 75% of the road width. Unfortunately my instinct was to stamp on the back brake which obviously locked up. If I’m honest I can’t even remember if I got anywhere near the front brake.
Because the back was locked and I was trying to steer around the front of his car and through the remaining gap I ended up sliding sideways. Fortunately I did have the presence of mind to get off the back back, the bike straightened up and i squirmed through the gap.
I think between me and the Vectra driver we could have fertilised many fields....
My worry is my instinct was to stand on the back brake. Not ideal at all. So like the OP, I have been pondering how to practice, or reprogram my brain for limit handling, and emergency brake situations as I’m aware my response is severely lacking.
Had Vectra man not stopped I’d have just ploughed into him with the back brake locked up. If I’d have applied a controlled front brake (I have abs) chances are I think I’d have possibly stopped.
It is very difficult to not target your vision on the approaching hazard, and unfortunately in most cases you only have that one chance. The majority of us like to think we would know how to brake and react in a millisecond decision time , but it’s a bit of a lottery up to a certain extent.
I’m definitely going to do an IAM course next year to hopefully give myself a lot more safer years of riding. More experience the better.
I’m definitely going to do an IAM course next year to hopefully give myself a lot more safer years of riding. More experience the better.
There is a worrying theme here. It would appear that more than a couple don't know how to use their brakes properly!
If you are not, every time you brake, using both brakes then you're doing it wrong. Do it right and practice, practice, practice!
Assuming your bike is not a very long wheel base cruiser then, in dry, good grip conditions, the majority of your braking force comes from the front wheel. Note I didn't say "all", only the majority.
for lesser grip situations, wet road, gravel etc., the front will be able to handle less braking force and the rear more.
Find a flat, smooth piece of tarmac with no other road users and practice braking smoothly but hard enough to lock the front/lift the back. If the front locks, as soon as it does, let the brake off. If you're riding in a straight line on a flat surface, you will have time to lock and let off. If you have ABS, don't worry, the ABS will do it for you.
You will be amazed just how much braking force you can put through the brakes of a bike before things start to slide.
Most bike (road traffic) situations are a result of poor judgement and no one involved actually wanted that situation to happen. Spotting situations of potential poor judgement, either your own or other peoples, is where your concentration should be.
If you are not, every time you brake, using both brakes then you're doing it wrong. Do it right and practice, practice, practice!
Assuming your bike is not a very long wheel base cruiser then, in dry, good grip conditions, the majority of your braking force comes from the front wheel. Note I didn't say "all", only the majority.
for lesser grip situations, wet road, gravel etc., the front will be able to handle less braking force and the rear more.
Find a flat, smooth piece of tarmac with no other road users and practice braking smoothly but hard enough to lock the front/lift the back. If the front locks, as soon as it does, let the brake off. If you're riding in a straight line on a flat surface, you will have time to lock and let off. If you have ABS, don't worry, the ABS will do it for you.
You will be amazed just how much braking force you can put through the brakes of a bike before things start to slide.
Ho Lee Kau said:
Defensive and predictive riding, think everyone is out to kill you.
And leave your ego behind.
I understand the sentiment but it's completely the wrong thing to be thinking. The vast majority of other road users are not out to kill you, or even cause you any problems. The VERY FEW that are can and will make life very difficult for you.And leave your ego behind.
Most bike (road traffic) situations are a result of poor judgement and no one involved actually wanted that situation to happen. Spotting situations of potential poor judgement, either your own or other peoples, is where your concentration should be.
Edited by black-k1 on Monday 19th August 10:09
black-k1 said:
I understand the sentiment but it's completely the wrong thing to be thinking. The vast majority of other road users are not out to kill you, or even cause you any problems. The VERY FEW that are can and will make life very difficult for you.
Most bike (road traffic) situations are a result of poor judgement and no one involved actually wanted that situation to happen. Spotting situations of potential poor judgement, either your own or other peoples, is where your concentration should be.
100% agree.Most bike (road traffic) situations are a result of poor judgement and no one involved actually wanted that situation to happen. Spotting situations of potential poor judgement, either your own or other peoples, is where your concentration should be.
Edited by black-k1 on Monday 19th August 10:09
Also think about your line choice. Turn into early and you'll potentially run out of room. Turn in a bit later you give yourself more time to see and react.
black-k1 said:
Ho Lee Kau said:
Defensive and predictive riding, think everyone is out to kill you.
And leave your ego behind.
I understand the sentiment but it's completely the wrong thing to be thinking. The vast majority of other road users are not out to kill you, or even cause you any problems. The VERY FEW that are can and will make life very difficult for you.And leave your ego behind.
Most bike (road traffic) situations are a result of poor judgement and no one involved actually wanted that situation to happen. Spotting situations of potential poor judgement, either your own or other peoples, is where your concentration should be.
Edited by black-k1 on Monday 19th August 10:09
Another option as well as positioning, using cross views and being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear etc. Maybe do an off road course. You'll soon get fed up with picking your bike up after a two wheel lock up / front wheel wash out and quickly learn to use your brakes to maximum effect without effecting steering. Also you'll only get target fixation once ( usually a large oak tree or stingy nettles) before you train your brain to look were you want to go. If all else fails buy a bike with ABS were you are encouraged to jump on the brakes and steer .....preferably when you not hanging off strapping your knee and elbow on the tarmac 
Thanks for comments and suggestions. I ride a 125 cc scooter 4 miles cross country each way to the station every day without issue and have been for 9 years, the difference is the speed and my braking technique for sure which I am going to work on, my road positioning in this accident was not perfect but ok from what I can recall though thinking back I am not convinced I had my front brake covered so probably lost vital seconds, without doubt ‘target fixation’ was evident, my first thought was stop as opposed to find a way round, I nearly did but not quite.
The i2i course looks good, as does IAM, and I think I will give one of them a go, I want to try to retrain my brain to react the ‘right’ way when situations present themselves as even most defensive riding won’t always be enough and riding around constantly thinking I am going to be knocked off means I’d sooner not bother really.
After I had checked the bike over and calmed my nerves I actually carried on for an hour or so just to try and really get to grips with my technique and some harder but progressive emergency braking to find where the limits are.
One thing on road positioning, I know approaching a left hand bend you should be more over to the center of the road to increase your visible line through the corner, my only issue with this is the amount of cars who are often really too close to it coming the other way or people who cut corners, am I alone in sensing / fearing this?
The i2i course looks good, as does IAM, and I think I will give one of them a go, I want to try to retrain my brain to react the ‘right’ way when situations present themselves as even most defensive riding won’t always be enough and riding around constantly thinking I am going to be knocked off means I’d sooner not bother really.
After I had checked the bike over and calmed my nerves I actually carried on for an hour or so just to try and really get to grips with my technique and some harder but progressive emergency braking to find where the limits are.
One thing on road positioning, I know approaching a left hand bend you should be more over to the center of the road to increase your visible line through the corner, my only issue with this is the amount of cars who are often really too close to it coming the other way or people who cut corners, am I alone in sensing / fearing this?
Sounding like a right geek, but with regards to positioning for corners. You should never sacrifice your safety when positioning. If you're over to the centre of the road on a left hander and see a vehicle coming in the opposite direction there is nothing to stop you moving in slightly and when the vehicle has passed move back out. Like wise on right hander when your over to the nearside and approaching nearside junctions move out towards the centre of the road so that you get an early view into the junction and any motorists approaching the junction get an early view of you once passed the junction move back to the nearside.................Anyway back to my lady bird book of Roadcraft ;}
fastasflip said:
Sounding like a right geek, but with regards to positioning for corners. You should never sacrifice your safety when positioning. If you're over to the centre of the road on a left hander and see a vehicle coming in the opposite direction there is nothing to stop you moving in slightly and when the vehicle has passed move back out. Like wise on right hander when your over to the nearside and approaching nearside junctions move out towards the centre of the road so that you get an early view into the junction and any motorists approaching the junction get an early view of you once passed the junction move back to the nearside.................Anyway back to my lady bird book of Roadcraft ;}
Not what the IAM would say. If there's nothing coming you'd stay on the crown of the road near the centre line. If there's 'regular' traffic coming (cars/bikes) then move to centre of the lane. Only move fully nearside if there's something coming the other way that could unsight following traffic behind (trucks or busses). Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff