Jorge Lorenzo..

[Keoparakolo]

joema said:

Japanese factories have had years to refine their aluminium frames. Ducati have had one for a few years but they're still learning. For KTM to change could mean putting them back further for a long time.

Zarco is lucky. Still think it'll be tough for him. Can't see him on the factory team for '21 either. Miller is probably a good shout for one. Dovi isn't going backwards so would probably re-sign for another couple of years unless they can nab vinales or MM.

Dovi won’t get another factory Ducati contract once this one expires. He’s not really a challenger and certainly not getting any younger, the seat needs to be freed up for a younger rider.

[lazybike]

It could work for Zarco, if I was working for Avintia I'd be saying I'll show you who's not a top team mate, they'll probably be glad to prove how good they can be with a proven rider.

[graeme4130]

Ho Lee Kau said:

If you were part of Avintia team would you want to have anything to do with such a person?

I suspect all of this will be forgotten if he starts getting results on the Factory Supported bikes, and they can start asking their sponsors for more money
Plus, I expect the deal comes with a reduction of payments for bikes and parts from Italy, especially if JZ starts doing really well

[hiccy18]

Keoparakolo said:

Dovi won’t get another factory Ducati contract once this one expires. He’s not really a challenger and certainly not getting any younger, the seat needs to be freed up for a younger rider.

I don't know why I too feel like this might be his last Ducati contract: he's been the only consistent challenger to Marquez for the past three seasons, the only person capable of consistently out thinking and out racing Marquez and the only other rider I thought might be capable of beating him on the Ducati has just retired.

[Keoparakolo]

hiccy18 said:

I don't know why I too feel like this might be his last Ducati contract: he's been the only consistent challenger to Marquez for the past three seasons, the only person capable of consistently out thinking and out racing Marquez and the only other rider I thought might be capable of beating him on the Ducati has just retired.

It’s a bit of a stretch to say he challenged Marquez this season. Nobody came close other than Quatararo IMO. Do I might have picked up a lot of second places but they were pretty distant second places for the most part.

He’ll be 34 when next season starts so can’t say he’s one for the future. Two out at the end of next season. Teams don’t stick with riders forever and there’s normally more turnover than we’re currently seeing.

[hiccy18]

Keoparakolo said:

It’s a bit of a stretch to say he challenged Marquez this season. Nobody came close other than Quatararo IMO. Do I might have picked up a lot of second places but they were pretty distant second places for the most part.

He’ll be 34 when next season starts so can’t say he’s one for the future. Two out at the end of next season. Teams don’t stick with riders forever and there’s normally more turnover than we’re currently seeing.

Not as much of a stretch as saying only Quatararo came close! C'mon, that is a stretch!

Marquez had a stunning season, yeah okay no one truly challenged him. But the Ducati was not even the second best bike this year yet Dovi still managed to out race Marquez at Austria. Who could Ducati put on the bike that would be better than Dovi? I can't think of anyone (except Lorenzo).

[Zarco]

If they made the Ducati turn they might have a wider choice of riders to take it to MM.

I like Dovi but I don't think he can come close to Marquez consistently on equal machinery. 2018 the Duke had enough straight line advantage over the Honda that he could force MM to follow and control the pace of the race. This year that wasn't the case and he was nowhere in the championship.

[anonymous-user]

If you stuck MM on the Ducati he’d clear off. The problem IMHO is that so many of the current crop of MotoGP riders come through never having had the pleasure of riding evil handling pieces of crap Every bike has its thing. The Ducati isn’t unrideable. I’d like to see Espargaro off that POS Aprilia, he’d be a great Ducati bet, fearless and used to quirky motorcycles. Also some of the rookies, who are really hungry might be a good shout along side him.

[hiccy18]

I wasn't including MM, I don't think Repsol/HRC will let him go for this coming contract cycle.

[anonymous-user]

hiccy18 said:

I wasn't including MM, I don't think Repsol/HRC will let him go for this coming contract cycle.

My point was/is it’s a mindset thing not a talent issue. I reckon there’s more riders than people think that would make the Ducati go well. The comment about Ducati needing to make it steer just make me laugh.

[Keoparakolo]

hiccy18 said:

Not as much of a stretch as saying only Quatararo came close! C'mon, that is a stretch!

Marquez had a stunning season, yeah okay no one truly challenged him. But the Ducati was not even the second best bike this year yet Dovi still managed to out race Marquez at Austria. Who could Ducati put on the bike that would be better than Dovi? I can't think of anyone (except Lorenzo).

He pushed him at several races. That’s more than anyone else managed, even if the others did win a race they didn’t challenge him consistently. Once FQ found his feet on the bike he became the only one who truly challenged Marquez. Admittedly he didn’t win a race, but his pole positions and laps spent leading races suggest he’s probably the best places to do it over a season. Dovi, Rins, Vinales all flattered to deceive on factory rides.

[Zarco]

yonex said:

hiccy18 said:

I wasn't including MM, I don't think Repsol/HRC will let him go for this coming contract cycle.

My point was/is it’s a mindset thing not a talent issue. I reckon there’s more riders than people think that would make the Ducati go well. The comment about Ducati needing to make it steer just make me laugh.

I'm with you on the mindset comment. Quartararo is a case in point. Came in this year and didn't know what the M1 'couldn't do' and smashed the factory riders. He obviously had a fare dose of talent to go with it (rather like MM does to an even greater degree!).

The Ducati still doesn't turn though

Its still easier to ride than the 2019 Honda. The rookies and less skilled riders do go better on it.

[hiccy18]

Keoparakolo said:

He pushed him at several races. That’s more than anyone else managed, even if the others did win a race they didn’t challenge him consistently. Once FQ found his feet on the bike he became the only one who truly challenged Marquez. Admittedly he didn’t win a race, but his pole positions and laps spent leading races suggest he’s probably the best places to do it over a season. Dovi, Rins, Vinales all flattered to deceive on factory rides.

With a race winning bike underneath him Dovi made it stick, Rins and Vinales sometimes did, Quartararo never did. Quartararo had a standout rookie season, had some great performances but missed at least two opportunities; beating Marc Marquez takes more between the lugs than Fabio has at the moment, and Dovi has it in spades.

[hiccy18]

Zarco said:

yonex said:

hiccy18 said:

I wasn't including MM, I don't think Repsol/HRC will let him go for this coming contract cycle.

My point was/is it’s a mindset thing not a talent issue. I reckon there’s more riders than people think that would make the Ducati go well. The comment about Ducati needing to make it steer just make me laugh.

I'm with you on the mindset comment. Quartararo is a case in point. Came in this year and didn't know what the M1 'couldn't do' and smashed the factory riders. He obviously had a fare dose of talent to go with it (rather like MM does to an even greater degree!).

The Ducati still doesn't turn though

Its still easier to ride than the 2019 Honda. The rookies and less skilled riders do go better on it.

I agree with all of the above but my question was excepting MM93 who would do better on a Ducati than Dovi?

[Keoparakolo]

hiccy18 said:

With a race winning bike underneath him Dovi made it stick, Rins and Vinales sometimes did, Quartararo never did. Quartararo had a standout rookie season, had some great performances but missed at least two opportunities; beating Marc Marquez takes more between the lugs than Fabio has at the moment, and Dovi has it in spades.

You need to review the season’s results.

Dovi won 2 races, Vinales won 2, Rins 1. That’s hardly suggesting that Dovi was pushing Marquez and the others weren’t. Whichever way you cut it they either all did, or all didn’t. My comments around Quatararo were relating to the second half of the season once he got to grips with the bike. He delivered pole positions, he led races. He didn’t win, but he is the second hottest property behind Marquez across the classes.

Dovi was 151 points adrift, that’s 6 race wins unanswered, a third of the season, and he’d still be behind by a point. I think you’re confusing seasons. Irrespective of what others did or didn’t do, Dovi didn’t push Marquez, apart from the odd race. The second half of the season he was nowhere in reality.

[Freakuk]

Keoparakolo said:

You need to review the season’s results.

Dovi won 2 races, Vinales won 2, Rins 1. That’s hardly suggesting that Dovi was pushing Marquez and the others weren’t. Whichever way you cut it they either all did, or all didn’t. My comments around Quatararo were relating to the second half of the season once he got to grips with the bike. He delivered pole positions, he led races. He didn’t win, but he is the second hottest property behind Marquez across the classes.

Dovi was 151 points adrift, that’s 6 race wins unanswered, a third of the season, and he’d still be behind by a point. I think you’re confusing seasons. Irrespective of what others did or didn’t do, Dovi didn’t push Marquez, apart from the odd race. The second half of the season he was nowhere in reality.

But Dovi was STILL 2nd in the championship and by 58 points over Vinales in 3rd, I understand what you are saying but Dovi was still 2nd, if it was 2020 now and everyone was on the same bike in the same form it would be different.

Ducati claim to have an all new bike for 2020, but as ever they didn't have this ready for thee Valencia test, so I'm already doubtful they'll have either a new bike and/or a decent tested package at the start of the 2020 season.

[Keoparakolo]

Freakuk said:

But Dovi was STILL 2nd in the championship and by 58 points over Vinales in 3rd, I understand what you are saying but Dovi was still 2nd, if it was 2020 now and everyone was on the same bike in the same form it would be different.

Ducati claim to have an all new bike for 2020, but as ever they didn't have this ready for thee Valencia test, so I'm already doubtful they'll have either a new bike and/or a decent tested package at the start of the 2020 season.

He may well have been second, but he isn’t paid to finish second. It was also a distant second place. It doesn’t matter how others perform if you’re expected to deliver X then that’s your benchmark, you can’t apply the seemingly commonplace approach of “but, but Corbyn”. If I pay a builder to build an extension to a certain level I won’t say “Next doors is even worse so it’s OK”.

The point I’m making is that Dovi will be 35 at the start of 2021. That’s old for a rider. Very old for a factory rider. He’s not Rossi, who is a special case anyway. Ducati and all teams turn over riders fairly frequently. I think they’ll be doing the same with both riders at the end of this coming season. It’s the end of the usual 2 year contract cycle and most seats will be up for grabs.

[hiccy18]

Keoparakolo said:

You need to review the season’s results.

Dovi won 2 races, Vinales won 2, Rins 1. That’s hardly suggesting that Dovi was pushing Marquez and the others weren’t. Whichever way you cut it they either all did, or all didn’t. My comments around Quatararo were relating to the second half of the season once he got to grips with the bike. He delivered pole positions, he led races. He didn’t win, but he is the second hottest property behind Marquez across the classes.

Dovi was 151 points adrift, that’s 6 race wins unanswered, a third of the season, and he’d still be behind by a point. I think you’re confusing seasons. Irrespective of what others did or didn’t do, Dovi didn’t push Marquez, apart from the odd race. The second half of the season he was nowhere in reality.

Nah I don't need to review the results ta, my point is clear: put a bike capable of winning under Dovi and he's capable of winning, even against Marc Marquez. Dovi had 4 or 5 chances of winning this year, was taken out on two of them, Petrucci took Mugello; you can't win them all. I've already conceded that Marquez didn't really have a challenger this year but Dovi did the best with the equipment he had and when the bike was capable he delivered. As Freakuk pointed out he was still comfortably second.

Yamaha had a strong second half of the season, two of their riders were regular front row and podium contenders. Quartararo got five podiums, that "deceptive" Vinales only managed four, the slacker. But Vinales got a win, threw away a podium refusing to let Marquez win.... hmm I think Vinales also did well.

I don't think building work is analogous to racing but none of the riders are paid to be first, they are paid to do the best with the equipment provided to them; even Marc Marquez couldn't take last years Aprilia and win the championship.

As I said I don't know why but I do feel this might be Dovi's last Ducati contract and I suspect it wil come from wanting to try a new direction as the ultimate goal hasn't been reached, I just struggle to see who will do a better job for them; I guess you think they should be hiring Quartararo?

[Keoparakolo]

I think they should be looking to Moto2 and making bolder rider decisions. Their approach of filtering someone through over years and years doesn’t seem to be working. They’ve had Miller for two years now and still haven’t promoted him, by the time they do (if they do) he’ll be 26. Zarco is even older.

I think we’re agreed that Dovi is in the twilight of his Ducati career. He isn’t the challenger he was a few years ago.

Marquez wouldn’t have a contract saying he had to win the title if he was on an Aprilia. Nor do any of the ones on lesser bikes. Those on factory bikes have higher expectations. Do you think Yamaha we’re happy with Vinales or Rossi this year? Yes the bike was slow, but it could turn. To be consistently outscored by a satellite rider is not good for them. They are expected to win.

I think Quartararo should be on a factory Yamaha now, but 2021 at the latest and I mean the factory team not a factory bike in a satellite team.

[hiccy18]

I think Dovi still has some fight left in him but if the GP20 isn't a contender I suspect he'll retire; if Dovi is still on that seat in 21 then Ducati need to put someone really sharp on the other bike to push like hell, not ride Dovi's coat tails like Petrucci: Quartararo or maybe Vinales are the only names I can think of, although Zarco is hungry enough. JL99 hmm maybe?

Yamaha can't be happy with their riders performances for the past two seasons and Fabio on a current bike has slammed home what Zarco hinted at the previous couple of years: they need to swing behind the sharp young guy, the old man seems to lack that last fraction.

So I think two or three Italians should leave the championship at the end of the year, sorry Dorna.

Finally, relative to the thread title, observation: Lorenzo leaves Yamaha and joins Ducati, Yamaha no longer a championship contender, Ducati is. Lorenzo joins Honda, Ducati no longer a championship contender. Coincidence?