Discussion
king fast.bergclimber34 said:
The path Dorna and Liberty want SBK to be on is not supporting older BSB riders, they will get chances as Bridewell has done if they take millions to the table, and maybe this new team could do this as they make their money basically flogging stuff on gambling auction websites a huge profit area.
But the organisers don't want this, they ONLY and pretty much want exclusively ex GP riders, this has been a change in the last 15 or so years since Biaggi was bribed to go there really lol
They will think it raises the profile of their series, when all it does it make it look like a retirement home for washed up GP riders, and it is also happening a lot in Supersport sadly too. SO the chances for young talent from anywhere,m not just the UK is going.
Conversely, Bayliss was bang average in Supersport, comes here and utterly dominates the last few rounds, the gap between top level in BSB and SBK is far, far bigger than it ever has been, because of this influx of GP riders.
You would NEVER get Bryne, Hodgson Reynolds, BSB riders winning SBK races now, partly due to rules, but also the level is far higher, it has been moved away from what it ought to be, a series for stock bikes, the fact you have no Super-stock series, you instead of women racing and a 300 class shows you exactly what Dorna want here, and it is yet another talent poo, for people to go GP racing, not a lot else.
That's not totally true. BSB Superbike riders don't transition into WSBK well due to the disparity in rules, and the learning curve of electronics in WSBK compared to BSB. Bridewell has made a good job of it this season, and although Brad Ray and Vickers were class riders, they didn't get the best machinery or long enough to drive themselves. Taz is doing well too, but it's taken a shed load of cash to keep him there.But the organisers don't want this, they ONLY and pretty much want exclusively ex GP riders, this has been a change in the last 15 or so years since Biaggi was bribed to go there really lol
They will think it raises the profile of their series, when all it does it make it look like a retirement home for washed up GP riders, and it is also happening a lot in Supersport sadly too. SO the chances for young talent from anywhere,m not just the UK is going.
Conversely, Bayliss was bang average in Supersport, comes here and utterly dominates the last few rounds, the gap between top level in BSB and SBK is far, far bigger than it ever has been, because of this influx of GP riders.
You would NEVER get Bryne, Hodgson Reynolds, BSB riders winning SBK races now, partly due to rules, but also the level is far higher, it has been moved away from what it ought to be, a series for stock bikes, the fact you have no Super-stock series, you instead of women racing and a 300 class shows you exactly what Dorna want here, and it is yet another talent poo, for people to go GP racing, not a lot else.
Understandably, the Worlds teams will look towards GP for their riders, as the level there is higher. Realistically, you'd take a punt on a front running (or mid pack) Moto2 rider or back of the pack GP rider, over a front running BSB rider every day as they're familiar with the tracks and have grown up in GP so understand more of the intricacies of running a bike with so much adjustment as well as how a world level paddock works
Although Dorna/MTGPEG can have the final say in who they take, it's up to the teams to promote that rider to them for approval.
graeme4130 said:
bergclimber34 said:
The path Dorna and Liberty want SBK to be on is not supporting older BSB riders, they will get chances as Bridewell has done if they take millions to the table, and maybe this new team could do this as they make their money basically flogging stuff on gambling auction websites a huge profit area.
But the organisers don't want this, they ONLY and pretty much want exclusively ex GP riders, this has been a change in the last 15 or so years since Biaggi was bribed to go there really lol
They will think it raises the profile of their series, when all it does it make it look like a retirement home for washed up GP riders, and it is also happening a lot in Supersport sadly too. SO the chances for young talent from anywhere,m not just the UK is going.
Conversely, Bayliss was bang average in Supersport, comes here and utterly dominates the last few rounds, the gap between top level in BSB and SBK is far, far bigger than it ever has been, because of this influx of GP riders.
You would NEVER get Bryne, Hodgson Reynolds, BSB riders winning SBK races now, partly due to rules, but also the level is far higher, it has been moved away from what it ought to be, a series for stock bikes, the fact you have no Super-stock series, you instead of women racing and a 300 class shows you exactly what Dorna want here, and it is yet another talent poo, for people to go GP racing, not a lot else.
That's not totally true. BSB Superbike riders don't transition into WSBK well due to the disparity in rules, and the learning curve of electronics in WSBK compared to BSB. Bridewell has made a good job of it this season, and although Brad Ray and Vickers were class riders, they didn't get the best machinery or long enough to drive themselves. Taz is doing well too, but it's taken a shed load of cash to keep him there.But the organisers don't want this, they ONLY and pretty much want exclusively ex GP riders, this has been a change in the last 15 or so years since Biaggi was bribed to go there really lol
They will think it raises the profile of their series, when all it does it make it look like a retirement home for washed up GP riders, and it is also happening a lot in Supersport sadly too. SO the chances for young talent from anywhere,m not just the UK is going.
Conversely, Bayliss was bang average in Supersport, comes here and utterly dominates the last few rounds, the gap between top level in BSB and SBK is far, far bigger than it ever has been, because of this influx of GP riders.
You would NEVER get Bryne, Hodgson Reynolds, BSB riders winning SBK races now, partly due to rules, but also the level is far higher, it has been moved away from what it ought to be, a series for stock bikes, the fact you have no Super-stock series, you instead of women racing and a 300 class shows you exactly what Dorna want here, and it is yet another talent poo, for people to go GP racing, not a lot else.
Understandably, the Worlds teams will look towards GP for their riders, as the level there is higher. Realistically, you'd take a punt on a front running (or mid pack) Moto2 rider or back of the pack GP rider, over a front running BSB rider every day as they're familiar with the tracks and have grown up in GP so understand more of the intricacies of running a bike with so much adjustment as well as how a world level paddock works
Although Dorna/MTGPEG can have the final say in who they take, it's up to the teams to promote that rider to them for approval.
I think there is clear desire to push ex GP riders, not simply due to skill, but in their eyes it raises a profile.
Britain has fallen back to what it was in the 80s and early 90s when Brits were never considered for GP rides, and had to make do with shoddy second rate bikes if they did get there, ask Jay Vincent, Jezza, Robinson, Darren Barton, Camier, Leon, Hodgson, some of the stuff they tell is illuminating from those days.
Our talent always had the Flammini outlet though, Foggy led the way but even he initially did it off his own back in 92.
I agree for a team a Brit is a risk, but I think there is also a clear directive to pick GP talent over abd above, even if they are mot paying for a ride as our lads have to.
Britain has fallen back to what it was in the 80s and early 90s when Brits were never considered for GP rides, and had to make do with shoddy second rate bikes if they did get there, ask Jay Vincent, Jezza, Robinson, Darren Barton, Camier, Leon, Hodgson, some of the stuff they tell is illuminating from those days.
Our talent always had the Flammini outlet though, Foggy led the way but even he initially did it off his own back in 92.
I agree for a team a Brit is a risk, but I think there is also a clear directive to pick GP talent over abd above, even if they are mot paying for a ride as our lads have to.
and at the end of the day, Ryde, Ray etc are earning a wage in BSB. Whereas in WSBK, because of the limited seats and competition they'd have to show up with money to pay the team.
I think our lads are good enough as I don't see why a rider born elsewhere is more naturally talented (most riders could win a championship given the right opportunity). Just not experienced with the current tracks and bikes sbk has.
I should view that as good that we keep them in BSB but then they end up sitting on the best bikes and the grid stagnates as the only vacant seats are on those that aren't top. And I'd love to see Ryde take them on the worlds as he has matured into something dominant and fast. Maybe we need a BSB/MSV funded wsbk team. Winner of bsb takes it
I think our lads are good enough as I don't see why a rider born elsewhere is more naturally talented (most riders could win a championship given the right opportunity). Just not experienced with the current tracks and bikes sbk has.
I should view that as good that we keep them in BSB but then they end up sitting on the best bikes and the grid stagnates as the only vacant seats are on those that aren't top. And I'd love to see Ryde take them on the worlds as he has matured into something dominant and fast. Maybe we need a BSB/MSV funded wsbk team. Winner of bsb takes it
joema said:
and at the end of the day, Ryde, Ray etc are earning a wage in BSB. Whereas in WSBK, because of the limited seats and competition they'd have to show up with money to pay the team.
I think our lads are good enough as I don't see why a rider born elsewhere is more naturally talented (most riders could win a championship given the right opportunity ). Just not experienced with the current tracks and bikes sbk has.
I should view that as good that we keep them in BSB but then they end up sitting on the best bikes and the grid stagnates as the only vacant seats are on those that aren't top. And I'd love to see Ryde take them on the worlds as he has matured into something dominant and fast. Maybe we need a BSB/MSV funded wsbk team. Winner of bsb takes it
Don’t agree with the bit in bold. Far more riders fail to win a titles than win them even if they have the right kit and opportunity I think our lads are good enough as I don't see why a rider born elsewhere is more naturally talented (most riders could win a championship given the right opportunity ). Just not experienced with the current tracks and bikes sbk has.
I should view that as good that we keep them in BSB but then they end up sitting on the best bikes and the grid stagnates as the only vacant seats are on those that aren't top. And I'd love to see Ryde take them on the worlds as he has matured into something dominant and fast. Maybe we need a BSB/MSV funded wsbk team. Winner of bsb takes it
Opapayer said:
joema said:
and at the end of the day, Ryde, Ray etc are earning a wage in BSB. Whereas in WSBK, because of the limited seats and competition they'd have to show up with money to pay the team.
I think our lads are good enough as I don't see why a rider born elsewhere is more naturally talented (most riders could win a championship given the right opportunity ). Just not experienced with the current tracks and bikes sbk has.
I should view that as good that we keep them in BSB but then they end up sitting on the best bikes and the grid stagnates as the only vacant seats are on those that aren't top. And I'd love to see Ryde take them on the worlds as he has matured into something dominant and fast. Maybe we need a BSB/MSV funded wsbk team. Winner of bsb takes it
Don t agree with the bit in bold. Far more riders fail to win a titles than win them even if they have the right kit and opportunity I think our lads are good enough as I don't see why a rider born elsewhere is more naturally talented (most riders could win a championship given the right opportunity ). Just not experienced with the current tracks and bikes sbk has.
I should view that as good that we keep them in BSB but then they end up sitting on the best bikes and the grid stagnates as the only vacant seats are on those that aren't top. And I'd love to see Ryde take them on the worlds as he has matured into something dominant and fast. Maybe we need a BSB/MSV funded wsbk team. Winner of bsb takes it
He came back to BSB and didn't win all over the place and to date has only had one BSB title. Yes he is possibly in the twilight of his career but he is still 'kin fast on a bike and a front runner. maybe not title winner as much now as a few years back but still a race winner.
See Stacey for another example, fast and young but i don't see him winning a title in BSB any time soon. Same goes for Talbot, Cook, Skinner, Vickers just to name a few who are all front runners and could potentially win races at some point but Ryde and Ray are ahead of everyone when it comes to the overall title.
John D. said:
Can Oncu is going to do a British Supersport wildcard at Thruxton for Yamaha. He absolutely smoked the regulars last year at Donington on a Kawasaki wildcard as I recall. Be interesting to see what he makes of Thruxton.
It will go one of three waysa: He'll disappear over the horizon and n one will see which way he went
b: He'll go round, decide nah i'm good thanks and just finish mid pack
c: He'll absolutely launch the yamaha into the stratosphere off Church corner
If he does well, then it’s further highlighting the gap between British riders and the rest of the world. As much as we all like to think we’re a big nation in all sports we’re not even close to the talent on mainland Europe for bikes. I don’t think our BSB rules are helping riders now either. The number of superbikes on sale is low nowadays so there needs to be a way ensure what is available competitive. It would help to move back to bikes that meet WSBK rules too so we can see wildcards again. Not sure we’ll see the likes of Hodgson wildcarding and winning again but we need a shop window.
Might help with sponsorship too.
Might help with sponsorship too.
It is almost worthless doing it anyway the bike specs are so different now you would need to build a new bike to run in SBK spec with electronics etc, BSB uses a totally different setup.
Back in the 00's you could use the same bikes, and in the UK at least most of our guys ran Dunlops which worked better than MIchelins at Donington and Brands usually, so our BSB lads would be very quick.
Back in the 00's you could use the same bikes, and in the UK at least most of our guys ran Dunlops which worked better than MIchelins at Donington and Brands usually, so our BSB lads would be very quick.
Opapayer said:
If he does well, then it s further highlighting the gap between British riders and the rest of the world. As much as we all like to think we re a big nation in all sports we re not even close to the talent on mainland Europe for bikes. I don t think our BSB rules are helping riders now either. The number of superbikes on sale is low nowadays so there needs to be a way ensure what is available competitive. It would help to move back to bikes that meet WSBK rules too so we can see wildcards again. Not sure we ll see the likes of Hodgson wildcarding and winning again but we need a shop window.
Might help with sponsorship too.
I think the regs are pretty similar between BSS and WSS. Not as vastly different as BSB to WSBK at least. He rode a Gearlink Kawasaki last year at Donington (stand in for an injured rider). Might help with sponsorship too.
You are right it does highlight the different level of competition between British and World championship. Tom Booth Amos was doing similar last year in BSS, and Oli Bayliss is this year. They are coming in and smoking everyone (TBA did crash a fair bit too). Both of them were not as competitive in WSS.
In WSS Oncu seems to struggle with tyre management. He's amazing off the line and a really aggressive rider so makes passes and often leads early on but fades later in the race, seeming to run out of tyre. Thruxton being how it is for tyre deg I wonder how he will fair. Not likely to be as easy as Donington for him where he had experience.
John D. said:
I think the regs are pretty similar between BSS and WSS. Not as vastly different as BSB to WSBK at least. He rode a Gearlink Kawasaki last year at Donington (stand in for an injured rider).
You are right it does highlight the different level of competition between British and World championship. Tom Booth Amos was doing similar last year in BSS, and Oli Bayliss is this year. They are coming in and smoking everyone (TBA did crash a fair bit too). Both of them were not as competitive in WSS.
In WSS Oncu seems to struggle with tyre management. He's amazing off the line and a really aggressive rider so makes passes and often leads early on but fades later in the race, seeming to run out of tyre. Thruxton being how it is for tyre deg I wonder how he will fair. Not likely to be as easy as Donington for him where he had experience.
Fair points. I was thinking more generally as I’m struggling with BSB this year and missed the last three rounds coverage. I’d normally be all over it and worried I’m heading down the same road of indifference that I have towards WSBK. I’d be gutted if it ends like that for me as it used to be the go to place for great racing but it just doesn’t feel the same this year. You are right it does highlight the different level of competition between British and World championship. Tom Booth Amos was doing similar last year in BSS, and Oli Bayliss is this year. They are coming in and smoking everyone (TBA did crash a fair bit too). Both of them were not as competitive in WSS.
In WSS Oncu seems to struggle with tyre management. He's amazing off the line and a really aggressive rider so makes passes and often leads early on but fades later in the race, seeming to run out of tyre. Thruxton being how it is for tyre deg I wonder how he will fair. Not likely to be as easy as Donington for him where he had experience.
theoperative said:
John D. said:
Can Oncu is going to do a British Supersport wildcard at Thruxton for Yamaha. He absolutely smoked the regulars last year at Donington on a Kawasaki wildcard as I recall. Be interesting to see what he makes of Thruxton.
It will go one of three waysa: He'll disappear over the horizon and n one will see which way he went
b: He'll go round, decide nah i'm good thanks and just finish mid pack
c: He'll absolutely launch the yamaha into the stratosphere off Church corner
bergclimber34 said:
Ducati have made Superbike racing a one make series largely,
This is the British Superbike thread right?Where there are currently 4 manufacturers in the top 6 championship places?
Where Bimota got pole at the weekend, and Yamaha were on the podium each race including a win?
Yes the Ducati’s are quick, but it is far from a one make series!
bergclimber34 said:
Not for me chap, only one make winning anything this year in both series.
If you like that fair enough, but only one guy has won a race on anything else, that is not a great watch
To be fair, he does have a point as do you but whilst i agree with you about WSBK, BSB is slightly different in that there are other manufacturers fighting at the front end.If you like that fair enough, but only one guy has won a race on anything else, that is not a great watch
However, Ducati have built a bike within the rules that is all but unbeatable and in WSBK especially, the bike and the factory Aruba team are head and shoulders above everyone else.
In BSB it isn't as clear cut, shown with Ray and Cook able to fight and pressure the Ducati's regularly and whilst Ryde will no doubt win the title this year from Redding, Ray still has a chance of spoiling things so Ducati don't finish 1 and 2 in the championship.
Ryde in particular has come on leaps and bounds since he won his first title beating Bridewell in that epic season long scrap and i think has become a far better racer and all round championship winner ever since that year and i would wager that if the team had stayed with Yamaha's this year, he would still be right at the front.
Just my tuppence on the subject
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