Discussion
Graeme is correct that the WSBK will not help with setting up the BSB bike much at all. Virtually nothing will be transferable between the bikes in terms of the way it reacts and feels. To compound that Philip Island and Portimao aren’t anything like the BSB tracks. Maybe he’ll get some extra time riding round Assen, but going there on a WSBK in April vs everyone having had 10 rounds of the main season to set their BSB spec bike up when they get to Assen in September won’t be much of an advantage.
Opapayer said:
To compound that Philip Island and Portimao aren t anything like the BSB tracks.
Could you explain this a bit more, please? I'd have thought Portimao has some things in common with Brands GP and Philip Island with Donnington. Certainly, they seem to have more in common than the likes of Misano, or most of the Tilke tracks.trevalvole said:
Could you explain this a bit more, please? I'd have thought Portimao has some things in common with Brands GP and Philip Island with Donnington. Certainly, they seem to have more in common than the likes of Misano, or most of the Tilke tracks.
There are no words to describe how up and down and all over the place Portimao is. It’s like no other track. It’s also hugely wide. Brands has a few gentle slopes in comparison, little run off and is much much narrower. Donington is very stop start in comparison to Philip Island which is much faster and ballsy IMO. It’s also anti-clockwise to Donington’s clockwise layout.
Both of the international circuits hosts MotoGP and have the highest level of licence grade A for that. Donington and Brands Hatch don’t.
There really is little comparison. What Bridewell will gain is competitive seat time and maybe a bit around getting his best seating position, he won’t learn much if anything else that will transfer to his BSB spec bike.
Opapayer said:
trevalvole said:
Could you explain this a bit more, please? I'd have thought Portimao has some things in common with Brands GP and Philip Island with Donnington. Certainly, they seem to have more in common than the likes of Misano, or most of the Tilke tracks.
There are no words to describe how up and down and all over the place Portimao is. It s like no other track. It s also hugely wide. Brands has a few gentle slopes in comparison, little run off and is much much narrower. Donington is very stop start in comparison to Philip Island which is much faster and ballsy IMO. It s also anti-clockwise to Donington s clockwise layout.
Both of the international circuits hosts MotoGP and have the highest level of licence grade A for that. Donington and Brands Hatch don t.
There really is little comparison. What Bridewell will gain is competitive seat time and maybe a bit around getting his best seating position, he won t learn much if anything else that will transfer to his BSB spec bike.
I get all of that but i still say it will give him a head start, he'll know how it reacts so he won't be starting from scratch so to speak. Granted compared to the likes of Moto Rapido or PBM, then they are behind the curve but Nitrous OMG are in the same boat.
It's going to be an interesting season that is for sure and those who have data from last year and continuity on the bike, will have a massive head start on the others but especially the Ducati and Bimota teams
Opapayer said:
What Bridewell will gain is competitive seat time and maybe a bit around getting his best seating position, he won t learn much if anything else that will transfer to his BSB spec bike.
To explore a bit further.... Is the suspension different between WSB and BSB? I'd have guessed they would use BSB forks and shock at the WSB rounds so would gain some knowledge there? Or does the difference in electronics change the way the bikes load/unload suspension to such a degree that even things like spring rates would be different?I can't see beyond Scott Redding winning it on the Ducati next season.
He put in some phenomenal rides this year, but I got the feeling that he was only riding at 9/10ths knowing that a title win was impossible given that he joined part way through the season. Really interested to see what he can do with a full season.
Regardless, I am really looking forward to it. It's the only form of motorsport I really follow these days, hope to get to a few more races next year, only managed the Brands summer one this season.
He put in some phenomenal rides this year, but I got the feeling that he was only riding at 9/10ths knowing that a title win was impossible given that he joined part way through the season. Really interested to see what he can do with a full season.
Regardless, I am really looking forward to it. It's the only form of motorsport I really follow these days, hope to get to a few more races next year, only managed the Brands summer one this season.
Opapayer said:
Donington is very stop start in comparison to Philip Island which is much faster and ballsy IMO. It s also anti-clockwise to Donington s clockwise layout.
Yes, the loop at Donington is stop-start, but I'm not sure about the rest of it, in particular the greater Craner Curves section, which also seems quite ballsy to me too.trevalvole said:
Yes, the loop at Donington is stop-start, but I'm not sure about the rest of it, in particular the greater Craner Curves section, which also seems quite ballsy to me too.
Craner Curves is a great bit of track but bears no relation to anywhere at Phillip Island which is what was being suggested. My point (and Graeme’s who is very well placed to pass comment) was that as a whole the three tracks he’s riding aren’t like the tracks he’ll be riding in the U.K. There’s also the Foggy Esses and Goddards which are very stop / start and most of the other corners aren’t flowing fast ones. They need a fair bit of braking before.
stang65 said:
To explore a bit further.... Is the suspension different between WSB and BSB? I'd have guessed they would use BSB forks and shock at the WSB rounds so would gain some knowledge there? Or does the difference in electronics change the way the bikes load/unload suspension to such a degree that even things like spring rates would be different?
I’m not sure what they can and can’t run in WSBK, but the main thing is that the ECU and all electronics alter the bike and the way it handles / reacts massively. A perfect suspension setting in WSBK won’t work on a BSB spec machine even with identical suspension on both bikes. Opapayer said:
trevalvole said:
Yes, the loop at Donington is stop-start, but I'm not sure about the rest of it, in particular the greater Craner Curves section, which also seems quite ballsy to me too.
Craner Curves is a great bit of track but bears no relation to anywhere at Phillip Island which is what was being suggested. My point (and Graeme s who is very well placed to pass comment) was that as a whole the three tracks he s riding aren t like the tracks he ll be riding in the U.K. There s also the Foggy Esses and Goddards which are very stop / start and most of the other corners aren t flowing fast ones. They need a fair bit of braking before.
As you both correctly stated, it won’t be the same as at the BSB tests but it gives him a head start
More important than the similarity of the tracks, is the electronics
The WSBK runs a multi channel MM system which allows corner by corner, and even edge of the track vs inside of the track torque delivery, spin and yaw rates alongside the engine brake, slide and anti wheelie systems.
The Chassis on the new bike, besides the double sided swing arm, I suspect isn't going to be totally different to the outgoing bike, so the main development for BSB will all be in the Motec system for throttle connection, engine brake etc etc, which is what takes time and experience
Going back to track similarities, Pi, Portmimao etc, are as correctly mentioned earlier, largely way way wider than BSB tracks, and far smoother and much faster
Plus, the GP style tracks have very few stop start sections, and once you couple that in with bumpy narrow tracks, changing cambers etc, it makes the parity in setting a bike up largely irrelevant
Brands is a prime example. It's a mega track, but it can have multiple cambers in each corner, bumps where you really don't want bumps, and is generally a much cooler temp than somewhere like Portimoa, plus is a good few meters narrower, so even the fast sections are much slower than the fast sections of Portimao
The WSBK runs a multi channel MM system which allows corner by corner, and even edge of the track vs inside of the track torque delivery, spin and yaw rates alongside the engine brake, slide and anti wheelie systems.
The Chassis on the new bike, besides the double sided swing arm, I suspect isn't going to be totally different to the outgoing bike, so the main development for BSB will all be in the Motec system for throttle connection, engine brake etc etc, which is what takes time and experience
Going back to track similarities, Pi, Portmimao etc, are as correctly mentioned earlier, largely way way wider than BSB tracks, and far smoother and much faster
Plus, the GP style tracks have very few stop start sections, and once you couple that in with bumpy narrow tracks, changing cambers etc, it makes the parity in setting a bike up largely irrelevant
Brands is a prime example. It's a mega track, but it can have multiple cambers in each corner, bumps where you really don't want bumps, and is generally a much cooler temp than somewhere like Portimoa, plus is a good few meters narrower, so even the fast sections are much slower than the fast sections of Portimao
Chassis wise Portimão can be useful for testing. Yes it's relatively unique as an overall lap, but it has many components you need to understand for your chassis. There is braking with gradient, braking away from gradient, bumps, slow exits, fast exits, technical, a bit of everything. Braking severity is intermediate rated.
The main reason why testing on a WSB package to race elsewhere may not be an advantage, and in fact risks being a distinct disadvantage, is as written above, the difference the electronics make to the chassis setting. Remember that WSB is actually more open for these electronics than MotoGP. (Why they don't limit this in WSB to help cost I don't know, the control electronics in MotoGP have been a success)
This difference in setting is due to the massively different forces the bike is under. The Magneti Marelli equipped WSB package will be putting a lot more demand in through the squat characteristics of the bike. You can't even look at working with rear spring rate until you have your MM electronics somewhere near for example, it makes that much difference to the chassis.
This means you then set your chassis up around the anti-squat needed to deal with the highly sophisticated MM. So what works on your WSB, with MM, with regards to linkages, pivot points, swingarm length, shock length, spring rate etc may well not be optimised, or indeed actually be rather sub optimal, on your bike with a lesser electronic package. This then means your front options around head angle, offset, fork height, spring rate etc may be out also, as that will be affected by what the rear is doing. Basically, you can end up more lost (not necessarily will) than if you haven't done it in the first place.
The main reason why testing on a WSB package to race elsewhere may not be an advantage, and in fact risks being a distinct disadvantage, is as written above, the difference the electronics make to the chassis setting. Remember that WSB is actually more open for these electronics than MotoGP. (Why they don't limit this in WSB to help cost I don't know, the control electronics in MotoGP have been a success)
This difference in setting is due to the massively different forces the bike is under. The Magneti Marelli equipped WSB package will be putting a lot more demand in through the squat characteristics of the bike. You can't even look at working with rear spring rate until you have your MM electronics somewhere near for example, it makes that much difference to the chassis.
This means you then set your chassis up around the anti-squat needed to deal with the highly sophisticated MM. So what works on your WSB, with MM, with regards to linkages, pivot points, swingarm length, shock length, spring rate etc may well not be optimised, or indeed actually be rather sub optimal, on your bike with a lesser electronic package. This then means your front options around head angle, offset, fork height, spring rate etc may be out also, as that will be affected by what the rear is doing. Basically, you can end up more lost (not necessarily will) than if you haven't done it in the first place.
pitlane said:
Chassis wise Portimão can be useful for testing. Yes it's relatively unique as an overall lap, but it has many components you need to understand for your chassis. There is braking with gradient, braking away from gradient, bumps, slow exits, fast exits, technical, a bit of everything. Braking severity is intermediate rated.
The main reason why testing on a WSB package to race elsewhere may not be an advantage, and in fact risks being a distinct disadvantage, is as written above, the difference the electronics make to the chassis setting. Remember that WSB is actually more open for these electronics than MotoGP. (Why they don't limit this in WSB to help cost I don't know, the control electronics in MotoGP have been a success)
This difference in setting is due to the massively different forces the bike is under. The Magneti Marelli equipped WSB package will be putting a lot more demand in through the squat characteristics of the bike. You can't even look at working with rear spring rate until you have your MM electronics somewhere near for example, it makes that much difference to the chassis.
This means you then set your chassis up around the anti-squat needed to deal with the highly sophisticated MM. So what works on your WSB, with MM, with regards to linkages, pivot points, swingarm length, shock length, spring rate etc may well not be optimised, or indeed actually be rather sub optimal, on your bike with a lesser electronic package. This then means your front options around head angle, offset, fork height, spring rate etc may be out also, as that will be affected by what the rear is doing. Basically, you can end up more lost (not necessarily will) than if you haven't done it in the first place.
Exactly this The main reason why testing on a WSB package to race elsewhere may not be an advantage, and in fact risks being a distinct disadvantage, is as written above, the difference the electronics make to the chassis setting. Remember that WSB is actually more open for these electronics than MotoGP. (Why they don't limit this in WSB to help cost I don't know, the control electronics in MotoGP have been a success)
This difference in setting is due to the massively different forces the bike is under. The Magneti Marelli equipped WSB package will be putting a lot more demand in through the squat characteristics of the bike. You can't even look at working with rear spring rate until you have your MM electronics somewhere near for example, it makes that much difference to the chassis.
This means you then set your chassis up around the anti-squat needed to deal with the highly sophisticated MM. So what works on your WSB, with MM, with regards to linkages, pivot points, swingarm length, shock length, spring rate etc may well not be optimised, or indeed actually be rather sub optimal, on your bike with a lesser electronic package. This then means your front options around head angle, offset, fork height, spring rate etc may be out also, as that will be affected by what the rear is doing. Basically, you can end up more lost (not necessarily will) than if you haven't done it in the first place.
In summary, I don't think anyone feels doing the first 3 rounds of WSBk before BSB is anything other than a really expensive Jolly
Tommy is bloody good though, so he's got a fair chance on that bike in BSB if he can build a good team around himself and everything works well
pitlane said:
Chassis wise Portimão can be useful for testing. Yes it's relatively unique as an overall lap, but it has many components you need to understand for your chassis. There is braking with gradient, braking away from gradient, bumps, slow exits, fast exits, technical, a bit of everything. Braking severity is intermediate rated.
The main reason why testing on a WSB package to race elsewhere may not be an advantage, and in fact risks being a distinct disadvantage, is as written above, the difference the electronics make to the chassis setting. Remember that WSB is actually more open for these electronics than MotoGP. (Why they don't limit this in WSB to help cost I don't know, the control electronics in MotoGP have been a success)
This difference in setting is due to the massively different forces the bike is under. The Magneti Marelli equipped WSB package will be putting a lot more demand in through the squat characteristics of the bike. You can't even look at working with rear spring rate until you have your MM electronics somewhere near for example, it makes that much difference to the chassis.
This means you then set your chassis up around the anti-squat needed to deal with the highly sophisticated MM. So what works on your WSB, with MM, with regards to linkages, pivot points, swingarm length, shock length, spring rate etc may well not be optimised, or indeed actually be rather sub optimal, on your bike with a lesser electronic package. This then means your front options around head angle, offset, fork height, spring rate etc may be out also, as that will be affected by what the rear is doing. Basically, you can end up more lost (not necessarily will) than if you haven't done it in the first place.
That's interesting, thanks. I'd assumed that you first set up the bike's suspension and only then switched on the electronics and tuned them to remove the remaining undesirable characteristics.The main reason why testing on a WSB package to race elsewhere may not be an advantage, and in fact risks being a distinct disadvantage, is as written above, the difference the electronics make to the chassis setting. Remember that WSB is actually more open for these electronics than MotoGP. (Why they don't limit this in WSB to help cost I don't know, the control electronics in MotoGP have been a success)
This difference in setting is due to the massively different forces the bike is under. The Magneti Marelli equipped WSB package will be putting a lot more demand in through the squat characteristics of the bike. You can't even look at working with rear spring rate until you have your MM electronics somewhere near for example, it makes that much difference to the chassis.
This means you then set your chassis up around the anti-squat needed to deal with the highly sophisticated MM. So what works on your WSB, with MM, with regards to linkages, pivot points, swingarm length, shock length, spring rate etc may well not be optimised, or indeed actually be rather sub optimal, on your bike with a lesser electronic package. This then means your front options around head angle, offset, fork height, spring rate etc may be out also, as that will be affected by what the rear is doing. Basically, you can end up more lost (not necessarily will) than if you haven't done it in the first place.
Is it the case that whereas in a no-electronics class like BSB, that a main consideration in choosing the spring rate might be, say, to control the squat; but in WSB the electronics may help control the squat and so you can choose a spring rate that suits the other characteristics of the bike better, and so you have a faster bike overall?
trevalvole said:
That's interesting, thanks. I'd assumed that you first set up the bike's suspension and only then switched on the electronics and tuned them to remove the remaining undesirable characteristics.
Is it the case that whereas in a no-electronics class like BSB, that a main consideration in choosing the spring rate might be, say, to control the squat; but in WSB the electronics may help control the squat and so you can choose a spring rate that suits the other characteristics of the bike better, and so you have a faster bike overall?
Not really no, it's always a dynamic situation with how you work around set up, there isn't a 'right' and a 'wrong' direction as such, but there is definitely things you look to first.Is it the case that whereas in a no-electronics class like BSB, that a main consideration in choosing the spring rate might be, say, to control the squat; but in WSB the electronics may help control the squat and so you can choose a spring rate that suits the other characteristics of the bike better, and so you have a faster bike overall?
With advanced MM for example you wouldn't look help control squat with electronics. You are using the electronics to get as much drive as possible down on the ground, and maximum acceleration. The squat is just a by-product of this acceleration, that you then set the chassis around with your anti-squat.
This is where it's dynamic in that obviously the more you can control the platform and the grip available, the more you can then grip and drive. The MM does have some advanced dynamic software you can use to adapt part of the electronics in real time if you want to mitigate a little of this equation, its a very complex bit of kit.
The crux of it is though the electronics are focusing on maximum drive, you control the squat best with the chassis.
In a class like BSB it will be much more traditional approach in that the spring rate will be refined sooner to control bike position earlier. Important to add it's not that BSB is no electronics, it's just passive electronics. You can do an awful lot with torque mapping to control the traction passively, and all the bikes at the front of BSB will be torque mapped rather than throttle mapped. It's the active (and adaptive) nature of the MM in WSB that means you need to dial in electronics more before spring rate etc, as it affects the chassis so much more.
Tam_Mullen said:
slopes said:
Stapleford reported as leaving his Triumph team, replacement for Ben Currie at Wilf Moore s team?
Absolutely not going with Wilf, they re not doing SSP in 2026Important update
Warner bros discovery is due to split mid 2026.
Both may be brought by a rival, ( paramount, netflix or even sky)
If it does split TNT sports is staying with Warner bros
Discovery plus and quest are going with Discovery.
Be careful who you pay a subscription to for BSb viewing.
Warner bros discovery is due to split mid 2026.
Both may be brought by a rival, ( paramount, netflix or even sky)
If it does split TNT sports is staying with Warner bros
Discovery plus and quest are going with Discovery.
Be careful who you pay a subscription to for BSb viewing.
A500leroy said:
Important update
Warner bros discovery is due to split mid 2026.
Both may be brought by a rival, ( paramount, netflix or even sky)
If it does split TNT sports is staying with Warner bros
Discovery plus and quest are going with Discovery.
Be careful who you pay a subscription to for BSb viewing.
Sounds a mess. I found the tnt coverage hit and miss and was decided on not subscribing in 2026. This cements that thought and I can’t see it somehow ending up free or on a reasonable sub.Warner bros discovery is due to split mid 2026.
Both may be brought by a rival, ( paramount, netflix or even sky)
If it does split TNT sports is staying with Warner bros
Discovery plus and quest are going with Discovery.
Be careful who you pay a subscription to for BSb viewing.
Shame for the ordinary punter.
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