Sharp helmet test, take what they say as gospel?
Discussion
black-k1 said:
I’m sure that the manufacturers do a great deal of testing and that they understand a lot about how helmets prevent injuries in accidents, but they are not the only ones with views on this. The difference is that SHARP are happy to tell you EXACTLY what tests they do, what they hope it will emulate, and, most importantly, how one helmet compares to another. That is something the manufacturers will not do!
Are you sure about this point? I've never asked a manufacturer how they test their helmets, but I've also never read anything saying that they keep it all close to their chests.black-k1 said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
Manufacturers do take helmets back that have been involved in accidents, be it road racing(Isle of Man, Irish road races etc) Track (all classes you care to mention) so they have actual helmets that have been damaged and in certain case's, team telemetry and actual video evidence.
SHARP I beleive test brand new helmets in a lab using a set type of test.
Have you tried a £60 lazer that scored a 5 star on your head?
You seem to be under the impression that I’m suggesting that there are either the manufacturers tests or there are the SHARP tests. That is absolutely not the case. The SHARP tests are in addition to all other tests that are done by the manufacturers and by the standards organisation (used to be BSI but I’m not sure of the name now it’s been Euro’ized.) I’m sure that the manufacturers do a great deal of testing and that they understand a lot about how helmets prevent injuries in accidents, but they are not the only ones with views on this. The difference is that SHARP are happy to tell you EXACTLY what tests they do, what they hope it will emulate, and, most importantly, how one helmet compares to another. That is something the manufacturers will not do!SHARP I beleive test brand new helmets in a lab using a set type of test.
Have you tried a £60 lazer that scored a 5 star on your head?
In answer to your question of have I put a 5 star £60 Lazer on my head? The answer is no …. but …. Would I put a 5 star £60 Lazer on my head with regards to crash protection? Absolutley YES
I enjoy the versatility of flip front helmets and thus have used those since the original BMW System 1 appeared about 20 years ago. I have previously had a Lazer flip front helmet and was happy with it apart from the noise level. (Not tested in SHARP tests yet but I hope it soon will be.) I have a Schuberth now which I will keep until replacement time, regardless of its’ SHARP rating. At that point I’ll buy the best fitting, quietist flip front helmet I can get, regardless of it’s SHARP rating, unless there are 2 that fit equally well, in which case I’ll but the one with the most SHARP stars!
- SHARP test helmets in a laboratory using static tests.*
Would I wear that over a £200 Arai?
No.
Dare2Fail said:
black-k1 said:
I’m sure that the manufacturers do a great deal of testing and that they understand a lot about how helmets prevent injuries in accidents, but they are not the only ones with views on this. The difference is that SHARP are happy to tell you EXACTLY what tests they do, what they hope it will emulate, and, most importantly, how one helmet compares to another. That is something the manufacturers will not do!
Are you sure about this point? I've never asked a manufacturer how they test their helmets, but I've also never read anything saying that they keep it all close to their chests.Biker's Nemesis said:
Yes I know the tests are in addition, if a point is being missed it's mine not yours.
So how do you think the manufacturers do the vast majority of their testing?- SHARP test helmets in a laboratory using static tests.*
Biker's Nemesis said:
The Lazer helmet I tried on felt quite thin on the padding front around the brow area. I've no doubt it fared well in laboratory tests with a dead weight being dropped onto it from a set height, same with the spear test.
Would I wear that over a £200 Arai?
No.
And that is totally your choice but, the key point is, would the £200 Arai offer more protection than the £60 Lazer in the event of an accident? While no one can answer that one conclusively as the circumstances of any accident can be so different to any and every other accident, the only independent scientific comparative tests undertaken in this country would indicate that your extra £140 does not buy you any extra protection and may actually offer you less protection.Would I wear that over a £200 Arai?
No.
I’m not saying SHARP are the be all and end all of helmet testing. Only that they are the best comparative tests we have at the moment and that their results show that spending more on your helmet does not necessarily give you more protection in the event of an accident.
I'm not sure whether this is still SHARP's position, but when the star ratings were first unveiled, they refused to give any information on the specific nature of the tests on the grounds that it would allow manufacturers to defeat the testing system. They also refused to give any clarification on the relative difference between the ratings.
This could mean that every helmet tested (all of which were previously thought to be perfectly safe for road use) had absolutely minimal differences in perceived safety from 1 to 5 stars.
Or it could mean that a 5-star helmet could survive a nuclear explosion and that a 1-star helmet will deliver a serious head injury if the wearer uses it on a warm day.
Couple that with a bit of cynicism about the usefulness of pretty much anything the Government is involved in...
Upshot, I bought a 2-star helmet made by a manufacturer that I trust, replacing the cheaper 3-star helmet that was moving around on my head by itself because the padding had lost its shape after 6 months use.
This could mean that every helmet tested (all of which were previously thought to be perfectly safe for road use) had absolutely minimal differences in perceived safety from 1 to 5 stars.
Or it could mean that a 5-star helmet could survive a nuclear explosion and that a 1-star helmet will deliver a serious head injury if the wearer uses it on a warm day.
Couple that with a bit of cynicism about the usefulness of pretty much anything the Government is involved in...
Upshot, I bought a 2-star helmet made by a manufacturer that I trust, replacing the cheaper 3-star helmet that was moving around on my head by itself because the padding had lost its shape after 6 months use.
Having worked at TRL, and I suspect worked on the very early stages of the work behind the SHARP tests, I believe all the tests are based upon the information acquired in the document linked to below:
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsafety_library/p...
I imagine the same people that developed the latest FIA helmet standards (and had input into the fine tuning of a number of the helmets) were involved with the SHARP scoring, and thus I'd imagine the logic behind the tests, and the analysis, is very appropriate.
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/roadsafety_library/p...
I imagine the same people that developed the latest FIA helmet standards (and had input into the fine tuning of a number of the helmets) were involved with the SHARP scoring, and thus I'd imagine the logic behind the tests, and the analysis, is very appropriate.
black-k1 said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
Yes I know the tests are in addition, if a point is being missed it's mine not yours.
So how do you think the manufacturers do the vast majority of their testing?- SHARP test helmets in a laboratory using static tests.*
Biker's Nemesis said:
The Lazer helmet I tried on felt quite thin on the padding front around the brow area. I've no doubt it fared well in laboratory tests with a dead weight being dropped onto it from a set height, same with the spear test.
Would I wear that over a £200 Arai?
No.
And that is totally your choice but, the key point is, would the £200 Arai offer more protection than the £60 Lazer in the event of an accident? While no one can answer that one conclusively as the circumstances of any accident can be so different to any and every other accident, the only independent scientific comparative tests undertaken in this country would indicate that your extra £140 does not buy you any extra protection and may actually offer you less protection.Would I wear that over a £200 Arai?
No.
I’m not saying SHARP are the be all and end all of helmet testing. Only that they are the best comparative tests we have at the moment and that their results show that spending more on your helmet does not necessarily give you more protection in the event of an accident.
How do I think manufacturers do the majority of their testing?: I'm more than sure I've answered this.
black-k1 said:
The thing about the SHARP tests is that they are repeatable, comparable and consistent. They conduct exactly the same test in exactly the same way and score each helmet on how it performs in those tests. How close those tests are to what would happen in a ‘real world’ accident is very difficult to say. However, the SHARP team do feel that their tests reflect common examples of helmet damage in ‘real world’ accidents but, every single ‘real world’ accident will be different.
Likewise, anyone who says that ‘I had an accident wearing my whatever make of helmet and I didn’t get injured so the helmet must be better than all the rest’ is not really thinking about what they are saying. Unless they go out and have exactly the same accident wearing every other make of helmet then they have no qualification to offer comparative advice.
The SHARP scoring will be far from perfect but they are the best scientifically undertaken comparative tests that are available! As has been said, buy the helmet that fits you best. The fit of the helmet is by far the most important aspect. If you have several helmets that fit you well in your price range then buy the one with the best SHARP score.
^ 100% thisLikewise, anyone who says that ‘I had an accident wearing my whatever make of helmet and I didn’t get injured so the helmet must be better than all the rest’ is not really thinking about what they are saying. Unless they go out and have exactly the same accident wearing every other make of helmet then they have no qualification to offer comparative advice.
The SHARP scoring will be far from perfect but they are the best scientifically undertaken comparative tests that are available! As has been said, buy the helmet that fits you best. The fit of the helmet is by far the most important aspect. If you have several helmets that fit you well in your price range then buy the one with the best SHARP score.
black-k1 said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
How do I think manufacturers do the majority of their testing?: I'm more than sure I've answered this.
So, for clarity, I take we are agreeing that SHARP and the helmet manufacturers each do their safety testing in a laboratory using static tests ?Sharp test the side of the chinbar...I've already said all of this, go back and read my previous posts please.
I wonder how many people couldn't give a flying f
k about the Sharp testing and buy a helmet purely on colour/style/replica?
All I know is I have seen a 4 star rated Nitro helmet after a friends crash. I will not be taking any notice of their test results and will go with what I know and trust, and most importantly, fits well.
k about the Sharp testing and buy a helmet purely on colour/style/replica?All I know is I have seen a 4 star rated Nitro helmet after a friends crash. I will not be taking any notice of their test results and will go with what I know and trust, and most importantly, fits well.
The brand and the price tell you absolutely nothing. The Sharp tests tell you SOMETHING. As flawed as the Sharp tests are, they are the only independent tests you have to go on, and I for one am thankful that they exist, although they are not the sole factor in my purchasing decision of course.
The people that are most against them are the shops, magazines and manufacturers whose business model has been turned on its head when the most expensive helmets are shown to not necessarily be the best. Where's the value in the mega-bucks lid that scores 3*?
...oh, and the people who have just spent £600 on the latest Shoei/Arai tend to be squealing pretty loudly too...
I'd take a 4* Shoei over a 5* Ching-Chong any day, but I'd always have more confidence in a 5* helmet over a 1* no matter what brand.
The people that are most against them are the shops, magazines and manufacturers whose business model has been turned on its head when the most expensive helmets are shown to not necessarily be the best. Where's the value in the mega-bucks lid that scores 3*?
...oh, and the people who have just spent £600 on the latest Shoei/Arai tend to be squealing pretty loudly too...
I'd take a 4* Shoei over a 5* Ching-Chong any day, but I'd always have more confidence in a 5* helmet over a 1* no matter what brand.
Biker's Nemesis said:
black-k1 said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
How do I think manufacturers do the majority of their testing?: I'm more than sure I've answered this.
So, for clarity, I take we are agreeing that SHARP and the helmet manufacturers each do their safety testing in a laboratory using static tests ?Sharp test the side of the chinbar...I've already said all of this, go back and read my previous posts please.
Manufacturers test their products under laboratory conditions for the same reason. They do not test helmets in racing! Can you imagine the conversation – ‘please Mr. Racer, would you go out on the track and crash so that we can see how well our helmet performs? We hope your head will survive without injury but we’re not really sure!’
What manufacturers do is use results from racing accidents etc. to aid with product development. This is not testing and is not an area SHARP are involved in. However, SHARP (like manufacturers) do use the results from accidents to try and make their testing as appropriate as possible.
The testing experts at both SHARP and some manufacturers disagree as to which tests are most reflective of real world accidents but predicting what is going to happen in any given accident is impossible thus having disagreement between experts is very much to be expected. What does appear to be clear is that the only dispute about the testing that SHARP do is whether it actually ‘adds value’. At no point has anyone said that providing strength in that area of the helmet makes matters worse. That means that if(when) you crash, a 5 start helmet may not be better than a 3 star helmet, but it will definitely be no worse however, a 3 star helmet may be as good as a 5 star but it may be worse!
black-k1 said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
black-k1 said:
Biker's Nemesis said:
How do I think manufacturers do the majority of their testing?: I'm more than sure I've answered this.
So, for clarity, I take we are agreeing that SHARP and the helmet manufacturers each do their safety testing in a laboratory using static tests ?Sharp test the side of the chinbar...I've already said all of this, go back and read my previous posts please.
Manufacturers test their products under laboratory conditions for the same reason. They do not test helmets in racing! Can you imagine the conversation – ‘please Mr. Racer, would you go out on the track and crash so that we can see how well our helmet performs? We hope your head will survive without injury but we’re not really sure!’
What manufacturers do is use results from racing accidents etc. to aid with product development. This is not testing and is not an area SHARP are involved in. However, SHARP (like manufacturers) do use the results from accidents to try and make their testing as appropriate as possible.
The testing experts at both SHARP and some manufacturers disagree as to which tests are most reflective of real world accidents but predicting what is going to happen in any given accident is impossible thus having disagreement between experts is very much to be expected. What does appear to be clear is that the only dispute about the testing that SHARP do is whether it actually ‘adds value’. At no point has anyone said that providing strength in that area of the helmet makes matters worse. That means that if(when) you crash, a 5 start helmet may not be better than a 3 star helmet, but it will definitely be no worse however, a 3 star helmet may be as good as a 5 star but it may be worse!
I'm pleased that you've said that SHARP test helmets within a given set of tests. This is the main bone of contention that the public and certain manufacturers are not happy about.
Did I say that racers test helmets? No, what i said was that they gathered data from real world accidents, ie road and track.
Nice spin on the chin bar debate by the way.
Did anyone else receive an email from a marketing company in relation to the SHARP tests today? The email that I received says:-
"Hi there,
My name is XXX and I am from a communications company in London. We are currently working alongside the DfT and their SHARP testing scheme. I have come across a few of your posts where you mention that you do not hold much faith in the test. I was wondering if you would like to attend an open day at the SHARP testing site, where you can see first hand how the tests are run and clear up any confusion about the scheme. Would this be something you'd be interested in attending? If so you can reply here or email me at my email address, XXXX"
The only posts I have made in relation to SHARP are on this thread, so it must have been on the back of the debate we were all having.
"Hi there,
My name is XXX and I am from a communications company in London. We are currently working alongside the DfT and their SHARP testing scheme. I have come across a few of your posts where you mention that you do not hold much faith in the test. I was wondering if you would like to attend an open day at the SHARP testing site, where you can see first hand how the tests are run and clear up any confusion about the scheme. Would this be something you'd be interested in attending? If so you can reply here or email me at my email address, XXXX"
The only posts I have made in relation to SHARP are on this thread, so it must have been on the back of the debate we were all having.
Oi- Garlick ! I volunteer you in the interests of unbiased journalistic research .Biker's Nemesis said:
black-k1 said:
The thing about the SHARP tests is that they are repeatable, comparable and consistent. They conduct exactly the same test in exactly the same way and score each helmet on how it performs in those tests. How close those tests are to what would happen in a ‘real world’ accident is very difficult to say. However, the SHARP team do feel that their tests reflect common examples of helmet damage in ‘real world’ accidents but, every single ‘real world’ accident will be different.
Likewise, anyone who says that ‘I had an accident wearing my whatever make of helmet and I didn’t get injured so the helmet must be better than all the rest’ is not really thinking about what they are saying. Unless they go out and have exactly the same accident wearing every other make of helmet then they have no qualification to offer comparative advice.
The SHARP scoring will be far from perfect but they are the best scientifically undertaken comparative tests that are available! As has been said, buy the helmet that fits you best. The fit of the helmet is by far the most important aspect. If you have several helmets that fit you well in your price range then buy the one with the best SHARP score.
I read that SHARP tested the side of the chin bar. Certain manufacturers state that, that part of the helmet doesn't take anywhere the amount of impact that say the top or front of the helmet does in an accident due to the shoulder taking most of the impact.Likewise, anyone who says that ‘I had an accident wearing my whatever make of helmet and I didn’t get injured so the helmet must be better than all the rest’ is not really thinking about what they are saying. Unless they go out and have exactly the same accident wearing every other make of helmet then they have no qualification to offer comparative advice.
The SHARP scoring will be far from perfect but they are the best scientifically undertaken comparative tests that are available! As has been said, buy the helmet that fits you best. The fit of the helmet is by far the most important aspect. If you have several helmets that fit you well in your price range then buy the one with the best SHARP score.
So a manufacturer that tests through racing and takes feedback from riders worldwide should change their helmet designs to satisfy a team of White coats who conduct their tests in a laboratory?
People like to put down lab tests, but then if it weren't for the incremental proven structured improvements they give in all walks of life, we'd still be buying snake oil to cure our ailments because my brothers mate's grandad's cousin said it cured him of scurvy.
Of course there are other factors in deciding on a helmet, but if I am fresh to biking, I'd rather look at the results of some scientific testing to help steer my decision, than listen to 'anecdotal evidence'.
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