40% power gain on Ninja 250? Yeah?
Discussion
CB, seeing how you went down the slippery slope with your 993, I understand your addiction having been down that same slope with my old GT3 with Manthey. It's easy to get addicted to the experience of sliding down that slope with a constant eye on the bottom of that slope, even though our trajectory is sometimes hard to change once started, and we may end up in a sty that no one wants.
With regards to the bike, however, it sounds like what you want is something akin to an HP2 Megamoto or SuperDuke. So perhaps look at those as an example, and aim accordingly. The 993 had a good base motor that was easily improved on without too much difficulty. The problem is that the Kwacker250 just isn't that great a motor to begin with.
With regards to the bike, however, it sounds like what you want is something akin to an HP2 Megamoto or SuperDuke. So perhaps look at those as an example, and aim accordingly. The 993 had a good base motor that was easily improved on without too much difficulty. The problem is that the Kwacker250 just isn't that great a motor to begin with.
cyberface said:
stuff
What you're doing sounds like a great idea to me, since when did something have to be sensible to be worthwhile?!I am also plotting a project in a similar vein, find an old cg125 and rework the suspension, chop the rear end shorter, clip-ons, try and fabricate some rearsets and a little bit of tinkering to the motor. Old school face racer in essence.
Why? Well why the f
k not!
rhinochopig said:
Woah there - no one is arguing with you. Simply offering alternatives - this is a DISCUSSION forum, no?
A bunch of useful posts appeared just after I wrote that - crossposting, so to speak. Sorry - the discussion seemed to have slipped onto whether my project was a wise one (when anyone who has done a 'project' anything knows damn well that NO projects are 'wise' 
) when I was really asking about whether the engine power reported in that article suggested that the standard 2010 version of the motor was in a restricted or mild state of tune, and hence easy gains were possible….defblade said:
As someone's said, the only way you'll be able to tell what power your bike actually has, and if you've improved it later, is to get a base-line reading now (and use the same dyno for all further tests, too).
Sounds like you're taking the right course though - as with cars, suspension and braking fettling works much better in RealLife than outright power.
If you want to improve the power/weight ratio cheaply - eat less!!
Sadly, I'm already an unhealthily skinny bSounds like you're taking the right course though - as with cars, suspension and braking fettling works much better in RealLife than outright power.
If you want to improve the power/weight ratio cheaply - eat less!!
d - just over 5'11" and under 69 kg, if anything I could do with putting *on* some weight…3doorPete said:
GPX250R, ZZR250 and 250 Ninja are all the same engine - 8v parallel twin. ZXR250 had the IL4. Each iteration has ended up with a slower engine due to emission regs. My GPX250R with a 2 into 1 full system and dynojet kit made 38bhp at rear wheel on a mid 90's dyno (probably about 34bhp these days). It also redlined at 14K rpm (1000rpm higher than 250 Ninja). It was 20kg lighter than a ZZR250 after the exhaust, weighing about 135kg and was almost a match for RG250's. It could also virtually keep with NC24 VFR400's etc from a performance point of view.
That's encouraging - though my bike has EFI and hence may be restricted by throttle body sizes, there are plenty of full systems and rear cans available for the Ninja 250. I already have a K&N filter sitting here waiting for fitment too. Exhaust choice is still up for grabs, since I want to sort suspension before messing much with the engine (though a cheap rear can just for a nicer noise and to lose a good few kg will get done early on - the standard can weighs a ton).3doorPete said:
Having owned an Elise - they are not budget - just small and light without too much power and short on fripperies. All sports bikes have a similar concept to the Elise.
In my view the 250 Ninja is not an Elise of the bike world, more a 1.2 Ford Fiesta Zetec.
I know a bit about Elises In my view the 250 Ninja is not an Elise of the bike world, more a 1.2 Ford Fiesta Zetec.
They were not cheap, that's for sure, but most components (apart from the chassis) were. Metro engine, etc. What I was getting at was that the top speed was not high, in fact the original S1 is a safe car to drive quite hard on the road, since getting well over 90 mph (and into licence-losing / jail territory) is difficult due to 118 bhp and crap aero. All the performance was from light weight and handling. Acceleration was brisk but not mental, but it was *fun* to drive at these lower speeds because you could use the full range of the car's performance.I really can't agree that 'all sports bikes have a similar concept to the Elise' - unless you consider being able to comfortably exceed 100 mph on any short straight and having a top speed over 150 mph being part of the Elise DNA. To me, it's the light weight that does it - allows acceptable performance from an exceedingly average engine, strong braking and roadholding due to reduced weight to manage, etc. It's a lot harder to reduce that weight on bikes, as I'm finding out. Still, the Ninja 250 is appreciably lighter than any of the sports 600s and litre bikes, which is a good start.
3doorPete said:
Each to their own, but if you are intent on the Ninja 250 tuning route, I'd stick with sticky rubber, aftermarket rear shock, revalved forks, racing pads and a full exhaust system with power commander. They do sound quite nice on a race pipe!
And there you go - exactly what I'm doing (short of the racing pads, yet) 
I wonder whether the restrictions you mention due to emissions are all on the exhaust side of the engine… if the difference in power between my bike and the older versions of the same engine is down to cats, baffles and lambda sensors in the standard exhaust, then a full system and remap ought to make quite a difference, no? Or will head work still provide benefits over and above bolt-ons (knowing the law of diminishing returns quite well…).
bass gt3 said:
regarding the head work, give Chris Steedman at CJS Racing a call. He works mainly with Ducati's, but a head is a head. His work is exemplary, and he'll provide accurate before and after flow data. With this, you'll get a good idea as to the possible gains.
Now to maximise the flow, you may need to change the cam(s) Are aftermarket cams available? If not, you might be stuck. Or will cams from another model fit? Improving an engines breathing is about more than flow numbers. Think duration, overlap, swirl, tumble etc
Next up, is there a power commander available for that model? if not, you might be able modify another approximate version to fit.(Versys)?? For example, i have a PC5 for the 848 on my 996 race bike. Did it fit? no, did i make it fit? Yes. Did it work? Hell yes!!
Suspension. The front might not be a problem with so many insert kits being available. The rear might be a challenge. Even a shock from another base model is never going to be great. But if it has the necessary functions, it might be able to be rebuilt and improved by someone such as K Tec.
Wheels. I'll guarantee the BST carbon wheels for the Ape RS250 would fit. Might need some engineering in regards to disc offsets, wheel spacers etc, but it can be done. And it would be a huge improvement.
So yes, it can all be done, and you know where such projects lead in monetary terms.
Cheeers - that's useful info. Interesting about the BST wheels because the guys at HPS (importers here) say that the narrowest road legal CF wheel is 5.50" and for 180 width tyres, and the 125 race wheels aren't road-legal… didn't mention anything about wheels for the RS250, which also don't appear to be on their website. Are they (HPS) the only UK importers of the BST wheels?Now to maximise the flow, you may need to change the cam(s) Are aftermarket cams available? If not, you might be stuck. Or will cams from another model fit? Improving an engines breathing is about more than flow numbers. Think duration, overlap, swirl, tumble etc
Next up, is there a power commander available for that model? if not, you might be able modify another approximate version to fit.(Versys)?? For example, i have a PC5 for the 848 on my 996 race bike. Did it fit? no, did i make it fit? Yes. Did it work? Hell yes!!
Suspension. The front might not be a problem with so many insert kits being available. The rear might be a challenge. Even a shock from another base model is never going to be great. But if it has the necessary functions, it might be able to be rebuilt and improved by someone such as K Tec.
Wheels. I'll guarantee the BST carbon wheels for the Ape RS250 would fit. Might need some engineering in regards to disc offsets, wheel spacers etc, but it can be done. And it would be a huge improvement.
So yes, it can all be done, and you know where such projects lead in monetary terms.
Regarding the head work and whether cams are needed - the article linked where they apparently got 36 bhp from the standard 25.6 (I'm hoping that they aren't scamming by claiming the first figure at the wheel and the second figure at the crank) involved head work, custom pistons to increase the CR, but no custom cams, only different cam timing. Engine power isn't the primary goal for me, as it was for the guys in the article, so I'm not interested in going as far as that unless it's relatively cheap - after all, if I end up with loads of power then the bike will be doing over 100 on the roads again, which is why I got rid of the 600 in the first place. Light weight and hard cornering is what I'm aiming for.
Without sounding harsh I would try a 600 sportsbike for a day if I was you and see how you get on with it. My Thundercat is a fairly beefy ~185kg and I don't honestly feel it's greatly less agile than my Aprilia RS125 was in the real world despite being heavier and the Aprilia made about 30bhp. I find the 600 to be a lot more enjoyable to ride and it's not like I'm old either! I suspect if you did manage to get your Kawasaki up to those power figures it would be a pain in the arse to ride, however I may well be wrong about this.
I've often wondered about the implications of turbocharging bikes, I imagine the engine internals would all need beefing up and the fuel management and ignition would likely require a stand-alone controller, not to mention better brakes and suspension etc... I don't know how much it costs but even on low boost levels I'd imagine it would provide fairly good power increases.
I've often wondered about the implications of turbocharging bikes, I imagine the engine internals would all need beefing up and the fuel management and ignition would likely require a stand-alone controller, not to mention better brakes and suspension etc... I don't know how much it costs but even on low boost levels I'd imagine it would provide fairly good power increases.
I admire your project 
It may be worth you having a trip to a race meeting where the Supermono lot are racing. They're all about lightweight, great handling bikes. Some of them may have some tips and contacts that would be useful.
Not sure if you saw the thread I started a couple of weeks ago about the GP45 things, but it sounds like you need to get one and get it SVA'd (then let me have a go on it)
It may be worth you having a trip to a race meeting where the Supermono lot are racing. They're all about lightweight, great handling bikes. Some of them may have some tips and contacts that would be useful.
Not sure if you saw the thread I started a couple of weeks ago about the GP45 things, but it sounds like you need to get one and get it SVA'd (then let me have a go on it
)cyberface said:
rhinochopig said:
Woah there - no one is arguing with you. Simply offering alternatives - this is a DISCUSSION forum, no?
A bunch of useful posts appeared just after I wrote that - crossposting, so to speak. Sorry - the discussion seemed to have slipped onto whether my project was a wise one (when anyone who has done a 'project' anything knows damn well that NO projects are 'wise' ) when I was really asking about whether the engine power reported in that article suggested that the standard 2010 version of the motor was in a restricted or mild state of tune, and hence easy gains were possible….defblade said:
As someone's said, the only way you'll be able to tell what power your bike actually has, and if you've improved it later, is to get a base-line reading now (and use the same dyno for all further tests, too).
Sounds like you're taking the right course though - as with cars, suspension and braking fettling works much better in RealLife than outright power.
If you want to improve the power/weight ratio cheaply - eat less!!
Sadly, I'm already an unhealthily skinny bSounds like you're taking the right course though - as with cars, suspension and braking fettling works much better in RealLife than outright power.
If you want to improve the power/weight ratio cheaply - eat less!!
d - just over 5'11" and under 69 kg, if anything I could do with putting *on* some weight…3doorPete said:
GPX250R, ZZR250 and 250 Ninja are all the same engine - 8v parallel twin. ZXR250 had the IL4. Each iteration has ended up with a slower engine due to emission regs. My GPX250R with a 2 into 1 full system and dynojet kit made 38bhp at rear wheel on a mid 90's dyno (probably about 34bhp these days). It also redlined at 14K rpm (1000rpm higher than 250 Ninja). It was 20kg lighter than a ZZR250 after the exhaust, weighing about 135kg and was almost a match for RG250's. It could also virtually keep with NC24 VFR400's etc from a performance point of view.
That's encouraging - though my bike has EFI and hence may be restricted by throttle body sizes, there are plenty of full systems and rear cans available for the Ninja 250. I already have a K&N filter sitting here waiting for fitment too. Exhaust choice is still up for grabs, since I want to sort suspension before messing much with the engine (though a cheap rear can just for a nicer noise and to lose a good few kg will get done early on - the standard can weighs a ton).3doorPete said:
Having owned an Elise - they are not budget - just small and light without too much power and short on fripperies. All sports bikes have a similar concept to the Elise.
In my view the 250 Ninja is not an Elise of the bike world, more a 1.2 Ford Fiesta Zetec.
I know a bit about Elises In my view the 250 Ninja is not an Elise of the bike world, more a 1.2 Ford Fiesta Zetec.
They were not cheap, that's for sure, but most components (apart from the chassis) were. Metro engine, etc. What I was getting at was that the top speed was not high, in fact the original S1 is a safe car to drive quite hard on the road, since getting well over 90 mph (and into licence-losing / jail territory) is difficult due to 118 bhp and crap aero. All the performance was from light weight and handling. Acceleration was brisk but not mental, but it was *fun* to drive at these lower speeds because you could use the full range of the car's performance.I really can't agree that 'all sports bikes have a similar concept to the Elise' - unless you consider being able to comfortably exceed 100 mph on any short straight and having a top speed over 150 mph being part of the Elise DNA. To me, it's the light weight that does it - allows acceptable performance from an exceedingly average engine, strong braking and roadholding due to reduced weight to manage, etc. It's a lot harder to reduce that weight on bikes, as I'm finding out. Still, the Ninja 250 is appreciably lighter than any of the sports 600s and litre bikes, which is a good start.
3doorPete said:
Each to their own, but if you are intent on the Ninja 250 tuning route, I'd stick with sticky rubber, aftermarket rear shock, revalved forks, racing pads and a full exhaust system with power commander. They do sound quite nice on a race pipe!
And there you go - exactly what I'm doing (short of the racing pads, yet) I wonder whether the restrictions you mention due to emissions are all on the exhaust side of the engine… if the difference in power between my bike and the older versions of the same engine is down to cats, baffles and lambda sensors in the standard exhaust, then a full system and remap ought to make quite a difference, no? Or will head work still provide benefits over and above bolt-ons (knowing the law of diminishing returns quite well…).
To correct though - the Ninja 250R is 154kg dry. My 09 600RR is 155kg dry. That's a difference of a large dump before going for a ride. I guarantee you it will feel lighter both stationary and on the move due to the mass centralisation, so you are not really starting with something mega lightweight to turn into a razor.
I don't agree at all with the Elise comparison though. It was designed with handling in mind. The 250R was designed with budget and ease of use in mind. Light weight and quality suspension will not change issues with wrong riding position, wrong weight distribution, wrong fork dimensions, wrong rake and trail, wrong C of G and no mass centralisation when it comes to out and out handling. Take a KTM 530 SM at 115kg and 60 bhp geared to 100mph and there's your lightweight Elise type tool. Simple old style engine, killer chassis, handling and quality suspension, crap aero and impracticle and runs rings around more powerful, heavier stuff in the twisties.
Or for sub ton speeds and killer handling, try the Buell 1203 aircooledbikes, in either fighter or racer form.XB9 or 12 S or R. Great handling, huge torque, runs out of puff at the ton, manic handling, lots of parts available, and hugely entertaining fun. Can be had cheeeeeep, bang on the button for your target if you can get over the 250 thing.
Edited by bass gt3 on Friday 18th June 15:59
Wikipedia.com said:
engine's compression and maximum torque have been lowered to provide better midrange performance, where the motorcycle spends most of its time. The redesign of the engine was a response to frustration felt by new riders, according to Kawasaki, resulting in improvements in engine response at low RPM, and making the bike smoother and "much easier to ride."[11] Though the previous generation Ninja 250 had one more peak horsepower, or five more peak engine horsepower according to official Kawasaki specifications,[9][12] according to testing by Motorcycle Consumer News,[13] the new version's 20 or 30 percent increase in mid-range power allows the bike to pull from 3,000 rpm where previously it had to be revved to 4,000
_DeeJay_ said:
Wikipedia.com said:
engine's compression and maximum torque have been lowered to provide better midrange performance, where the motorcycle spends most of its time. The redesign of the engine was a response to frustration felt by new riders, according to Kawasaki, resulting in improvements in engine response at low RPM, and making the bike smoother and "much easier to ride."[11] Though the previous generation Ninja 250 had one more peak horsepower, or five more peak engine horsepower according to official Kawasaki specifications,[9][12] according to testing by Motorcycle Consumer News,[13] the new version's 20 or 30 percent increase in mid-range power allows the bike to pull from 3,000 rpm where previously it had to be revved to 4,000
Yamaha even restrict the throttle being opened full on California spec WR's to get them through the emmissions.
B3njamin said:
Without sounding harsh I would try a 600 sportsbike for a day if I was you and see how you get on with it.
Doesn't sound harsh at all chap. I presume you didn't read previous threads, where I pointed out that my previous bike was a CBR600 and whilst I loved flinging it around, it was the time I was riding 75% enthusiastically (as opposed to balls-out) and swooping round a long corner, and caught 110 on the speedo out of the corner of my eye (was obviously looking up the road, not at the clocks) - that I decided that all UK sportsbikes had gotten too fast. That CBR600 was a tatty, older bike - loads of miles on the clock but sweet engine - suspension tired but tyres in good shape - and all modern, up-to-date 600s would only be sharper, lighter and faster. I'd have the choice of riding everywhere at 20% (which would frustrate me), or be hitting 100+ on every short straight, and potentially losing my licence or going to jail.I've lost my licence once already, and jail would destroy my life (I run my own business, and that business, along with all my contacts and potential clients, would be immediately lost with a criminal record).
I don't ride bikes just for A to B transport, nor do I ride bikes to pose. I can't imagine anything more frustrating than owning a *sports* machine that is designed and built to be ridden hard - and only being able to ride at 10% unless I had absolutely no regard for the laws of the land, speed limits, or safety. How you guys on the latest litre superbikes do it, I don't know.
It's a fault of mine, the lack of self control on a 'sports bike', but one that I'm aware of. So 'trying a 600 sportsbike for a day' - well I don't think I'd have a problem 'getting on with it' - but I'd have a problem keeping within speed limits.
Perhaps I'm coming across as a total novice due to my choice of bike…. I've actually had my full bike licence and been riding for more than 12 years. Never owned a litre sports for the reasons I state, but have owned and ridden 600s.
3doorPete said:
I would imagine the restrictions are all over the place to ensure leanness etc. Mainly pipe and fueling I would say though. Cam profile may be a bit different.
Full system and remap then. There's a 'black box' on the market for the 2008+ Ninja 250R that shifts the rev limiter to 14,000 - as per the earlier bikes - not sure whether the new engine is unsafe above that engine speed, or whether it was an arbitrary limit due to the 'mid-range optimisation' resulting in the torque curve dropping off well before 13k and making revving onwards a waste of time. But I'm going to find out. The whole 'strengthened mid-range' is utter BS anyway - the bike doesn't start to move (err… come alive? accelerate briskly? ) until 9000 rpm…3doorPete said:
To correct though - the Ninja 250R is 154kg dry. My 09 600RR is 155kg dry. That's a difference of a large dump before going for a ride. I guarantee you it will feel lighter both stationary and on the move due to the mass centralisation, so you are not really starting with something mega lightweight to turn into a razor.
Blimey, I'd love your new CBR then - my old CBR felt a good 30 kg heavier. Look, I'm not arguing with the superiority of the *fast* bikes - that's where all the development has been, that's where the market is, I'd be an idiot to claim that some nice-looking but 'budget beginner's bike' is going to compete with the sharpest razors on the market.But whilst a bunch of other riders here see where I'm coming from… I'm not sure you do. Can you imagine how much fun I'd have on your CBR600? I loved my old Honda. But it wasn't even as focused as yours - yours is almost as light as my 250 (I'm still stunned by that figure, BTW). So put the sticky tyres I like on your CBR (for all I know, you already have) and let me take it out for a ride on my twisty-ish favourite roads…
I'll either come back in a police car, or with a court summons. The problem is that whilst the baby Ninja can almost certainly (this is the whole point - if it can't, then I've failed in the project) corner the tight bends at the same speed as the superbikes, it hasn't the power to come rocketing out of them into illegal speeds, or to spin up the rear wheel on a surface change and highside me into a tree. All the excitement is in the corners, not the straights. I don't *want* to be doing 140 mph on a short straight, but if I'm riding enthusiastically on a bike capable of it, then you bet I will.
On top of that, if I was riding your Honda, where's the need to *try* in order to go fast? I could just bimble round the corners, like many fast-bike riders I see here in the south east, and then open it up on the straights. No car could keep up. On the 250, it's a SLOW bike. In order to keep up and get any thrills at all, I *need* to corner like my life depends on it. I'm learning every time I ride, and I really *like* that.
If I pushed my cornering ability on your CBR then all it'd take is one policeman to see me riding, and then it'd be curtains. I really don't want to have to hold back every time I ride - and I can't spend all my biking time on trackdays.
3doorPete said:
I don't agree at all with the Elise comparison though. It was designed with handling in mind. The 250R was designed with budget and ease of use in mind. Light weight and quality suspension will not change issues with wrong riding position, wrong weight distribution, wrong fork dimensions, wrong rake and trail, wrong C of G and no mass centralisation when it comes to out and out handling. Take a KTM 530 SM at 115kg and 60 bhp geared to 100mph and there's your lightweight Elise type tool. Simple old style engine, killer chassis, handling and quality suspension, crap aero and impracticle and runs rings around more powerful, heavier stuff in the twisties.
Fair enough, on that point you're bang on. Have you ridden a Ninja 250 though? It's no great shakes compared to your bike, but it doesn't deserve the slagging off you've given it there… having a twin rather than an IL4 makes the bike narrow, which is a bonus, and perhaps it's just me, but the 'wrong riding position' is perfect for me. I find it 'fits' perfectly, and allows me to put pressure on the bike anywhere I want without feeling that I'm not in control - i.e. putting weight on the front wheel to get it to turn in (on the old tyres - not needed yet on the new ones), weight on pegs, countersteering by push or pull, and I can flick my body either way to either reduce the required lean angle or increase it. I'm hardly Rossi and I won't claim to be a fast, skilled sportsbike rider, but it's *that* type of bike I want to ride.I really *did* consider a supermoto. But I knew I'd end up riding it primarily around town like my old scooter - i.e. riding everywhere like a complete cock. Wheelies, as has been mentioned, stoppies, the works. Don't want to provoke my reckless side, TBH.
bass gt3 said:
Or for sub ton speeds and killer handling, try the Buell 1203 aircooledbikes, in either fighter or racer form.XB9 or 12 S or R. Great handling, huge torque, runs out of puff at the ton, manic handling, lots of parts available, and hugely entertaining fun. Can be had cheeeeeep, bang on the button for your target if you can get over the 250 thing.
Tell me more. I've wanted a Buell for god damn ages - loved the eccentricity, the weird front brake, all the mass down low for cornering, etc. However how can a litre+ bike run out of puff at the ton? I'm not keen on naked bikes, had a Monster and the windblast was annoying. Also - I seriously can't believe they are 155 kg - surely the big Harley motor and the frame cum fuel tank (or is it oil) put it *well* above modern sportsbike weights?Look - bottom line is that I'm going to mess about with the 250 for a bit of fun. If I end up finding it doesn't work out, I've still got a commuter bike that has taught me a load of good stuff about how to corner hard and fast, and I won't have lost my licence. Then I can either say 'sod it' and buy a Priller RS250 and put it in the back garden, ride it one a weekend and hope it doesn't get nicked or disintegrate in the rain… or do what everyone else does and buy a lovely, lightweight, powerful 600 and try to deal with the frustration of not riding it hard…
Damn you Bass GT3 - I was seriously going to buy a Buell two years ago. Argh. Tell me they're over 200 kg and I'm not strong enough to throw them around, then I'll be OK.
bass gt3 said:
regarding the head work, give Chris Steedman at CJS Racing a call. He works mainly with Ducati's, but a head is a head. His work is exemplary, and he'll provide accurate before and after flow data. With this, you'll get a good idea as to the possible gains.
Or call Dave @ Bob Farnham Racing (Kent). He can give you a ball park idea in terms of cost and likely potential outcome as a function of each step you choose to pour cash into. Personally, I would have though increasing squish, cleaning up the head and putting some higher lift and longer duration cams in would be a starter for 10. You will then need the fuelling (and possibly ign if you go for radically different cams) sorting out. You will therefore need a PC V. Get a freer flowing exhuast, but again, take advice from an engine builder rather than a retail shop as one tends to know what they're talking about and what works, and the other doesn't, but is on good terms with the distributor...cyberface said:
B3njamin said:
Without sounding harsh I would try a 600 sportsbike for a day if I was you and see how you get on with it.
Doesn't sound harsh at all chap. I presume you didn't read previous threads, where I pointed out that my previous bike was a CBR600 and whilst I loved flinging it around, it was the time I was riding 75% enthusiastically (as opposed to balls-out) and swooping round a long corner, and caught 110 on the speedo out of the corner of my eye (was obviously looking up the road, not at the clocks) - that I decided that all UK sportsbikes had gotten too fast. That CBR600 was a tatty, older bike - loads of miles on the clock but sweet engine - suspension tired but tyres in good shape - and all modern, up-to-date 600s would only be sharper, lighter and faster. I'd have the choice of riding everywhere at 20% (which would frustrate me), or be hitting 100+ on every short straight, and potentially losing my licence or going to jail.I've lost my licence once already, and jail would destroy my life (I run my own business, and that business, along with all my contacts and potential clients, would be immediately lost with a criminal record).
I don't ride bikes just for A to B transport, nor do I ride bikes to pose. I can't imagine anything more frustrating than owning a *sports* machine that is designed and built to be ridden hard - and only being able to ride at 10% unless I had absolutely no regard for the laws of the land, speed limits, or safety. How you guys on the latest litre superbikes do it, I don't know.
It's a fault of mine, the lack of self control on a 'sports bike', but one that I'm aware of. So 'trying a 600 sportsbike for a day' - well I don't think I'd have a problem 'getting on with it' - but I'd have a problem keeping within speed limits.
Perhaps I'm coming across as a total novice due to my choice of bike…. I've actually had my full bike licence and been riding for more than 12 years. Never owned a litre sports for the reasons I state, but have owned and ridden 600s.
3doorPete said:
I would imagine the restrictions are all over the place to ensure leanness etc. Mainly pipe and fueling I would say though. Cam profile may be a bit different.
Full system and remap then. There's a 'black box' on the market for the 2008+ Ninja 250R that shifts the rev limiter to 14,000 - as per the earlier bikes - not sure whether the new engine is unsafe above that engine speed, or whether it was an arbitrary limit due to the 'mid-range optimisation' resulting in the torque curve dropping off well before 13k and making revving onwards a waste of time. But I'm going to find out. The whole 'strengthened mid-range' is utter BS anyway - the bike doesn't start to move (err… come alive? accelerate briskly? ) until 9000 rpm…3doorPete said:
To correct though - the Ninja 250R is 154kg dry. My 09 600RR is 155kg dry. That's a difference of a large dump before going for a ride. I guarantee you it will feel lighter both stationary and on the move due to the mass centralisation, so you are not really starting with something mega lightweight to turn into a razor.
Blimey, I'd love your new CBR then - my old CBR felt a good 30 kg heavier. Look, I'm not arguing with the superiority of the *fast* bikes - that's where all the development has been, that's where the market is, I'd be an idiot to claim that some nice-looking but 'budget beginner's bike' is going to compete with the sharpest razors on the market.But whilst a bunch of other riders here see where I'm coming from… I'm not sure you do. Can you imagine how much fun I'd have on your CBR600? I loved my old Honda. But it wasn't even as focused as yours - yours is almost as light as my 250 (I'm still stunned by that figure, BTW). So put the sticky tyres I like on your CBR (for all I know, you already have) and let me take it out for a ride on my twisty-ish favourite roads…
I'll either come back in a police car, or with a court summons. The problem is that whilst the baby Ninja can almost certainly (this is the whole point - if it can't, then I've failed in the project) corner the tight bends at the same speed as the superbikes, it hasn't the power to come rocketing out of them into illegal speeds, or to spin up the rear wheel on a surface change and highside me into a tree. All the excitement is in the corners, not the straights. I don't *want* to be doing 140 mph on a short straight, but if I'm riding enthusiastically on a bike capable of it, then you bet I will.
On top of that, if I was riding your Honda, where's the need to *try* in order to go fast? I could just bimble round the corners, like many fast-bike riders I see here in the south east, and then open it up on the straights. No car could keep up. On the 250, it's a SLOW bike. In order to keep up and get any thrills at all, I *need* to corner like my life depends on it. I'm learning every time I ride, and I really *like* that.
If I pushed my cornering ability on your CBR then all it'd take is one policeman to see me riding, and then it'd be curtains. I really don't want to have to hold back every time I ride - and I can't spend all my biking time on trackdays.
3doorPete said:
I don't agree at all with the Elise comparison though. It was designed with handling in mind. The 250R was designed with budget and ease of use in mind. Light weight and quality suspension will not change issues with wrong riding position, wrong weight distribution, wrong fork dimensions, wrong rake and trail, wrong C of G and no mass centralisation when it comes to out and out handling. Take a KTM 530 SM at 115kg and 60 bhp geared to 100mph and there's your lightweight Elise type tool. Simple old style engine, killer chassis, handling and quality suspension, crap aero and impracticle and runs rings around more powerful, heavier stuff in the twisties.
Fair enough, on that point you're bang on. Have you ridden a Ninja 250 though? It's no great shakes compared to your bike, but it doesn't deserve the slagging off you've given it there… having a twin rather than an IL4 makes the bike narrow, which is a bonus, and perhaps it's just me, but the 'wrong riding position' is perfect for me. I find it 'fits' perfectly, and allows me to put pressure on the bike anywhere I want without feeling that I'm not in control - i.e. putting weight on the front wheel to get it to turn in (on the old tyres - not needed yet on the new ones), weight on pegs, countersteering by push or pull, and I can flick my body either way to either reduce the required lean angle or increase it. I'm hardly Rossi and I won't claim to be a fast, skilled sportsbike rider, but it's *that* type of bike I want to ride.I really *did* consider a supermoto. But I knew I'd end up riding it primarily around town like my old scooter - i.e. riding everywhere like a complete cock. Wheelies, as has been mentioned, stoppies, the works. Don't want to provoke my reckless side, TBH.
bass gt3 said:
Or for sub ton speeds and killer handling, try the Buell 1203 aircooledbikes, in either fighter or racer form.XB9 or 12 S or R. Great handling, huge torque, runs out of puff at the ton, manic handling, lots of parts available, and hugely entertaining fun. Can be had cheeeeeep, bang on the button for your target if you can get over the 250 thing.
Tell me more. I've wanted a Buell for god damn ages - loved the eccentricity, the weird front brake, all the mass down low for cornering, etc. However how can a litre+ bike run out of puff at the ton? I'm not keen on naked bikes, had a Monster and the windblast was annoying. Also - I seriously can't believe they are 155 kg - surely the big Harley motor and the frame cum fuel tank (or is it oil) put it *well* above modern sportsbike weights?Look - bottom line is that I'm going to mess about with the 250 for a bit of fun. If I end up finding it doesn't work out, I've still got a commuter bike that has taught me a load of good stuff about how to corner hard and fast, and I won't have lost my licence. Then I can either say 'sod it' and buy a Priller RS250 and put it in the back garden, ride it one a weekend and hope it doesn't get nicked or disintegrate in the rain… or do what everyone else does and buy a lovely, lightweight, powerful 600 and try to deal with the frustration of not riding it hard…
Damn you Bass GT3 - I was seriously going to buy a Buell two years ago. Argh. Tell me they're over 200 kg and I'm not strong enough to throw them around, then I'll be OK.
But it's also a tad agricultural with THAt engine, but for what it is, it's superb. And if you want to modify, there's a ton of things. Chain kits to dispense witht he belt (which is super smooth) lashings of carbon etc etc. One word re the front brake. If you even breath on the lever when leant over, it really pulls the bike upright viciously. So not so good for trail braking, but nothing stopping you putting the forks from a decent bike into the triple clamps. Replace as many bolts as you can as the factory items can be a bit "cheap". But for a project bike, in the performance bracket you are looking at, i reckon it's a real sleeper. Go try one.
Cyberface - apologies if that came across as slating your bike - I absolutely wasn't. I loved my GPX250R to bits and I am a Kawasaki man through and through (with a smidge of Honda). It must have been a good bike as it ran as production bike for over 20 years and the engine is still going in your bike!
I guess what I am saying is that when you are looking into carbon wheels then that is taking feel and handling to an extreme (like Nitron suspension and carbon wheels on an Elise). If you go that far, then there are many major design issues that are 'wrong' on the rest of the bike because it has been designed for a different purpose.
As I too received a ban for an obscene speed on the A25 11 years ago, I know where you are coming from on that side too. I have an eclectic collection of bikes and am also partial to spending money on Honda C90's.
What I struggle a bit with is understanding why go to those extremes on that bike when it is a budget commuter and does what it says on the tin. A big single SM seems to fit your criteria like a glove. As you say though - it's the project that you enjoy.
There are also other less extreme SM's like the DRZ400 SM (135kg and 38bhp). Mine is on knobblies, but with the gearing shortened for off road use, it's top speed is 75mph and it was an absolute hoot to blast around the lanes on the torque until I recently fitted some really serious competition knobblies!!! Wheelies don't really get you into trouble as long as you pick your places and don't do them with lots of people around and if you short shift on the single torque there are no problems anyway.
I know you are local to me and I've worked on bikes and ridden them for 20 years, plus spent 2 years modding a GPX250R before writing it off, so you are more than welcome to pop up to bounce ideas or check out the differences in the bikes (for example my ZX7R feels about twice the weight of my CBR, yet is only 30kg heavier!).
I think anytime you post on a forum that you are looking to turn a bike into a weapon, that is not a logical start point, you'll get 20 grillion opinions on how "have you thought of this instead etc?". Perhaps you have, perhaps you haven't - we don't know you. I personally spent a lot of money on a supersport tune for a ZX6R in 1998. Everyone said why don't I get a blade or an R1, but I loved that bike, love 600's and loved the fact that I could beat the 916's, R1's and blades on track and on the road on a '600'. I didn't have a go at them, just accepted their view, then got on with what I wanted to do. I look forward to your posts with updates!
I guess what I am saying is that when you are looking into carbon wheels then that is taking feel and handling to an extreme (like Nitron suspension and carbon wheels on an Elise). If you go that far, then there are many major design issues that are 'wrong' on the rest of the bike because it has been designed for a different purpose.
As I too received a ban for an obscene speed on the A25 11 years ago, I know where you are coming from on that side too. I have an eclectic collection of bikes and am also partial to spending money on Honda C90's.
What I struggle a bit with is understanding why go to those extremes on that bike when it is a budget commuter and does what it says on the tin. A big single SM seems to fit your criteria like a glove. As you say though - it's the project that you enjoy.
There are also other less extreme SM's like the DRZ400 SM (135kg and 38bhp). Mine is on knobblies, but with the gearing shortened for off road use, it's top speed is 75mph and it was an absolute hoot to blast around the lanes on the torque until I recently fitted some really serious competition knobblies!!! Wheelies don't really get you into trouble as long as you pick your places and don't do them with lots of people around and if you short shift on the single torque there are no problems anyway.
I know you are local to me and I've worked on bikes and ridden them for 20 years, plus spent 2 years modding a GPX250R before writing it off, so you are more than welcome to pop up to bounce ideas or check out the differences in the bikes (for example my ZX7R feels about twice the weight of my CBR, yet is only 30kg heavier!).
I think anytime you post on a forum that you are looking to turn a bike into a weapon, that is not a logical start point, you'll get 20 grillion opinions on how "have you thought of this instead etc?". Perhaps you have, perhaps you haven't - we don't know you. I personally spent a lot of money on a supersport tune for a ZX6R in 1998. Everyone said why don't I get a blade or an R1, but I loved that bike, love 600's and loved the fact that I could beat the 916's, R1's and blades on track and on the road on a '600'. I didn't have a go at them, just accepted their view, then got on with what I wanted to do. I look forward to your posts with updates!
If only I had a garage….
Honestly, I'd have so many toys. I seriously looked into getting a DRZ400SM but again, wrote the idea off on the basis that I'd just ride like a cock and not really learn how to ride a sportsbike properly.
You see, most of this comes from running into too many *very* fast bikes on the road when I'm in the Lotus, and finding them holding me up in the corners but then blasting away on the straights - it's frustrating… but as a motorcyclist myself, I'd be a complete hypocrite buying a fast bike and not knowing how to ride the thing properly. Bimbling round corners only to blast off to massively-illegal speeds doesn't strike me as either responsible or skilled. I was more impressed last weekend when following a chap on a big GS1200 BMW with all the aluminium panniers etc. - funnily enough this was on the A25 too - I was pushing as hard as my utterly inappropriate rubber allowed (I've still got winter tyres on the Exige, they are all at sea in the summer, I'm waiting for some back-ordered wheels to put my trackday tyres onto) and the chap on the big adventure bike made me work hard to keep up in the corners. Now *that* was impressive.
A similar situation near Goodwood with a bunch of superbikes and chaps in Power Ranger outfits resulted in (twisty roads) me putting two clear corners between myself and the bikes, until a straight appeared, the bikes screamed up, thumbs up and vanished!
I guess with the idiotic focus on speed by local authorities, there's always that concern that it's dangerous to end up *really* enjoying something that the government is trying to stamp out. So far, cornering really hard within the speed limits is not illegal, and luckily my main enjoyment of motoring (both on 2 wheels and 4) is round the corners, not what speed I get to in a straight line.
And being *good* at cornering on a motorcycle is an art - with any modern bike sufficient to please the average guy's ego (i.e. bigger than my Ninja!!! ), there's so much power that you don't *have* to learn how to corner well - just overtake everything with impunity due to the awesome power-to-weight ratio of modern bikes. So it seems that many bikers simply don't bother - I'm not counting the trackday loons who bloody well *have* to be able to take corners at speed - but I come across so many road riders with awesomely fast bikes that go really slowly round corners. And I don't want to be one of them
At the end of the day, you're all right, the baby Ninja isn't a perfect starting point for a RS250 replacement - if I'm honest, that's what I'm trying to achieve - a full-sized sportsbike but usefully narrower, usefully lighter, not enough power to piss all over speed limits, but handling as good as the current crop of 600s. And with sticky tyres developed for 100+ bhp bikes, it'll have awesome grip and should be able to out-corner the big bikes.
The Ninja is the only new bike on the market in that bracket though, even though (as you rightly point out) it's not ideal. The change to the BT003 tyres transformed the bike though… I'm just wondering whether a decent rear shock would make a similar substantial difference to the handling of the bike… been offered a Nitron Sport shock (much lighter than standard), built to my specifications (weight, etc.) for £346.63 - seems better value than Öhlins etc. but I've only heard of Nitron in the Lotus space, not for bikes… anyone know if this sounds good?
Honestly, I'd have so many toys. I seriously looked into getting a DRZ400SM but again, wrote the idea off on the basis that I'd just ride like a cock and not really learn how to ride a sportsbike properly.
You see, most of this comes from running into too many *very* fast bikes on the road when I'm in the Lotus, and finding them holding me up in the corners but then blasting away on the straights - it's frustrating… but as a motorcyclist myself, I'd be a complete hypocrite buying a fast bike and not knowing how to ride the thing properly. Bimbling round corners only to blast off to massively-illegal speeds doesn't strike me as either responsible or skilled. I was more impressed last weekend when following a chap on a big GS1200 BMW with all the aluminium panniers etc. - funnily enough this was on the A25 too - I was pushing as hard as my utterly inappropriate rubber allowed (I've still got winter tyres on the Exige, they are all at sea in the summer, I'm waiting for some back-ordered wheels to put my trackday tyres onto) and the chap on the big adventure bike made me work hard to keep up in the corners. Now *that* was impressive.
A similar situation near Goodwood with a bunch of superbikes and chaps in Power Ranger outfits resulted in (twisty roads) me putting two clear corners between myself and the bikes, until a straight appeared, the bikes screamed up, thumbs up and vanished!
I guess with the idiotic focus on speed by local authorities, there's always that concern that it's dangerous to end up *really* enjoying something that the government is trying to stamp out. So far, cornering really hard within the speed limits is not illegal, and luckily my main enjoyment of motoring (both on 2 wheels and 4) is round the corners, not what speed I get to in a straight line.
And being *good* at cornering on a motorcycle is an art - with any modern bike sufficient to please the average guy's ego (i.e. bigger than my Ninja!!!
), there's so much power that you don't *have* to learn how to corner well - just overtake everything with impunity due to the awesome power-to-weight ratio of modern bikes. So it seems that many bikers simply don't bother - I'm not counting the trackday loons who bloody well *have* to be able to take corners at speed - but I come across so many road riders with awesomely fast bikes that go really slowly round corners. And I don't want to be one of them At the end of the day, you're all right, the baby Ninja isn't a perfect starting point for a RS250 replacement - if I'm honest, that's what I'm trying to achieve - a full-sized sportsbike but usefully narrower, usefully lighter, not enough power to piss all over speed limits, but handling as good as the current crop of 600s. And with sticky tyres developed for 100+ bhp bikes, it'll have awesome grip and should be able to out-corner the big bikes.
The Ninja is the only new bike on the market in that bracket though, even though (as you rightly point out) it's not ideal. The change to the BT003 tyres transformed the bike though… I'm just wondering whether a decent rear shock would make a similar substantial difference to the handling of the bike… been offered a Nitron Sport shock (much lighter than standard), built to my specifications (weight, etc.) for £346.63 - seems better value than Öhlins etc. but I've only heard of Nitron in the Lotus space, not for bikes… anyone know if this sounds good?
Interesting thread, one thing that was mentioned on your linked article was increasing the compression ratio. Whilst you have the head coming off for the headwork, it might be a good chance to get the head either skimmed or the block decked. Weight saving isn't cheap, but there are a few little things that can make a difference, have you looked for a smaller battery? Ceramic wheel bearings sounds a great modification, but again pricey but projects do get pricey. Bigger throttle bodies can sometimes lose you power, it's all about getting the compromise right, and different people will all give you different views.
I have just made a titanium component for my little bike in the lathe at work, saved a few grammes but the pure satisfaction of riding around with even a little something you have made yourself is immense, and having a bike individual to yourself is part of what motorcycling is about, otherwise I cannot explain how they sell Harleys
It was interesting the other night, went to a bike night met up with a group of mates known years on R6's and ZX6R's they all took off at insane speeds, fairly open road, not tight and twisty, so my little 125 didn't stand a chance, anyway met up with them again at the meet, then rode home on my own, down one of my favourite twisty tight road, had a great time. Then I had a few thoughts, yes my little 125 isn't the fastest thing ever built, but I like it, it has taken me from complete beginner to full licence holder (admittedly A2 restricted to 33bhp), covered over 7k of miles in the past 7 months, got some great holiday plans lined up for the summer out on the little bike. I enjoy making little items for it, as there is hardly anything made for it, so it's a nice little engineering hobby as well. It's easy on my pocket for fuel and tyres, compared to the pocket rockets. I have contemplated a bigger engined bike, but it's too expensive, and do I need it, simple answer is no. If you like your little baby ninja, go on explore what can be done, it makes a far more interesting project compared to another GSXR/blade/R1/R6 etc I bought these toys and bolted them on project, that's cheque book modifying rather than thinking and doing, and picking your way through the interesting part of what works and why does it work.
I have just made a titanium component for my little bike in the lathe at work, saved a few grammes but the pure satisfaction of riding around with even a little something you have made yourself is immense, and having a bike individual to yourself is part of what motorcycling is about, otherwise I cannot explain how they sell Harleys
It was interesting the other night, went to a bike night met up with a group of mates known years on R6's and ZX6R's they all took off at insane speeds, fairly open road, not tight and twisty, so my little 125 didn't stand a chance, anyway met up with them again at the meet, then rode home on my own, down one of my favourite twisty tight road, had a great time. Then I had a few thoughts, yes my little 125 isn't the fastest thing ever built, but I like it, it has taken me from complete beginner to full licence holder (admittedly A2 restricted to 33bhp), covered over 7k of miles in the past 7 months, got some great holiday plans lined up for the summer out on the little bike. I enjoy making little items for it, as there is hardly anything made for it, so it's a nice little engineering hobby as well. It's easy on my pocket for fuel and tyres, compared to the pocket rockets. I have contemplated a bigger engined bike, but it's too expensive, and do I need it, simple answer is no. If you like your little baby ninja, go on explore what can be done, it makes a far more interesting project compared to another GSXR/blade/R1/R6 etc I bought these toys and bolted them on project, that's cheque book modifying rather than thinking and doing, and picking your way through the interesting part of what works and why does it work.
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