40% power gain on Ninja 250? Yeah?

[3doorPete]

Fleegle said:

3doorPete said:

and the 250 racing class is dead.

How very dare you.

Of course not at club level! I know you are still pushing the envelope of 1980's technology

[cyberface]

rhinochopig said:

MC Bodge said:

rhinochopig said:

I still don't understand why Aprilia hasn't built a 400ish cc 4 stroke sports bike - they seem to have talked about it for years. They would sell like hotcakes IMO.

I do miss the days of the RD350 and RGV250 etc. Halcyon days for the younger biker.

Maybe people would appear keen initially, then look at the spec sheet and decide to buy a 600 (or 1000) sports after all, because it has more POWER?

But what's changed. In the days of the RGV 250 / NC30s, 600s had a chunk more power and torque then, but the smaller bikes still sold.

Wow - that supermono looks bloody fantastic! The pre-built one in the thread for £4500 would be a goer - I'd have bought that. Marchesini wheels etc. though… thieving pikey kids… it's a fine balance really and the bike I want (i.e. the dream bike) is basically impossible. Not even as a project bike with unlimited cash - it's fundamentally impossible due to the realities of widespread pikey criminals and the real issue of insurance.

What'd a supermono ride like though? Big thumper singles never really appealed to me - the supermotos I hear dicking about in London are loud and unpleasantly so, almost 'military' like some sort of firearm. Also, IMO, I see supermotos as the 'grown-up more-experienced motorcyclist' version of my old Gilera 180 scooter. Basically, a lairy urban toy for hooliganism and behaving like an utter cock. I had awesome amounts of fun, but your average Daily Mail type would have (perhaps with *some* justification) described me as 'riding like a cock'. I'm older and more experienced, but I *bet* if I had a supermoto, I'd ride like a complete cock. And that's not really what it's about for me if I can only have one bike (give me a garage, and I'll have multiple bikes, and there'll be no more problem - I've been trying to find a rental nearby for years to no avail). Of course, supermotos are *just* what the pikeys want to ride like cocks around industrial estates, so leaving it at the railway station would be as risky as a Goldman Sachs CDO squared.


Anyway - given that this is my 'all ideas welcomed' project bike / potential 'do-it-all' bike thread - let's run with the idea that the Ninja 250R was not the best starting point for what I'm after. It's fun to ride, and I'm still having fun riding it, but they retain good residuals so I'm not too bothered about moving on and admitting I made a mistake. It's looking like the only way to get 'razor' performance from the Ninja is to seriously lighten it and fit trick suspension. The rear is not a problem, I can get a fancy custom shock for that. The forks though… short of swapping them out completely, there's not much you can do. As many have pointed out, the engine isn't a good base (mea culpa, I thought I was getting 32 bhp which would have been just adequate… not 26.5 bhp, schoolboy error since I thought the A2 limits were power at the wheel, hence the Ninja 250, being made for the A2 market, would have 32 at the wheel. It doesn't) and getting near 40 bhp will require lots of bespoke tuning. Bespoke is bad - I'll say why later. If we're talking fork swaps, engine swaps, bespoke frame designs - that's getting silly. That sort of project is done from a cheap MOT failure donor bike, not a brand new machine.

So far, I haven't spent a fortune on the Ninja so there's little wasted cash. There's a can in the post, I've got a K&N to fit or re-sell, the sticky tyres would be good for the new owner if I end up selling the Ninjette, and I've still got the almost unused IRC Road Winners (though I'm not sure I'd sleep well at night if I sold them to someone on eBay, I really don't think they're that safe). The more significant money I *have* spent on bike kit has been on decent paddock stands, tools, disc locks, chains and padlocks. This stuff is equally applicable to any bike (the rear paddock stand is a cup-type for box-section swingarm bikes, but if the perfect 'new' project bike needs a different rear stand, it's only £25).

So…. admitting the mistake , and moving on…..


Next most suitable project bike is looking more and more like the Suzuki SV650S. I'm looking into the *exact* dimensions and masses of the SV650S (I will be wanting a fairing and need the pillion seat as my GF *loves* the SV650 - which adds weight, apart from the obvious exhaust I wonder where else I can lose weight?), plus insurance possibilities. I may have been given a bum steer on the 196 kg weight (which would be a dealbreaker - I want a light bike) so if the 170 kg quoted above is real, then game on. I'd probably trade the Ninja back in for a 5 year old £2k SV650, leaving me a chunk of cash to spend on making it handle and stop. The standard engine has around 70 bhp and whilst a bit too much for my *original* idea, it's obvious I'm going to have to compromise. Anyway, the bike only does 125 mph, and usually the last 15 mph take a long time and a long straight road. So I'm confident that even without much self-control, I'd be able to keep a SV650 below speed limits 80% of the time.

I gain three obvious pluses from switching to an SV650 base bike. Firstly is the engine. My favourite bike engine sound is a V-twin (so long as it isn't a Harley). Ducatis on Termignonis? My first bike, the little Monster 600, even on standard pipes sounded wonderful. The SV650 sounds great, and since I'll be modifying the exhaust for lightness and narrowness / leanability, hopefully I'll be able to get a *beautiful* noise from it. Secondly is the pillion support, my girlfriend LOVES the SV650 seat. It's actually nice to go out for a ride with her - it makes me ride ultra-smooth and as safely as possible, helps me work on technique and smooth operation of the controls. Thirdly is the commonness of the bike itself - there are loads available to buy, which makes them cheap, and there are loads of tuning parts, so I should be able to make something reasonably uniquely *mine*. The commonness should hopefully reduce my fear of theft too, they don't stand out like an F4 Agusta amongst a load of £400 scooters in a railway bike park would...

Right then - tuning parts available out there, proper Öhlins rear shock, fork upgrades, all sorts of engine bits (not interested other than exhaust), lots of exhausts (good - I utterly LOVE the sound of the V-twin). I can get one with around 20k miles on the clock for a couple of grand, there are lots of bikes available. This is encouraging. Assuming insurance is sensible and available, I can swap bikes rapido and start looking at lightening the SV650.

Anyone have one of these? Most people with them tend to tell me how great they are, haven't had anyone tell me they hated their SV650 yet. So, assuming that everyone is going to say 'good bike' - what are the bad points? I don't consider the weak-compared-to-a-gixxer power output a negative, I consider it a big plus!

Wheels and tyres - sizes - sticky tyres will be first port of call but since it's getting into the mainstream of UK bikes now… perhaps those carbon fibre wheels will be available in sizes that fit…. now THAT would lose me some weight, no? I'll try to get a black SV650S so carbon wheels don't stand out and shout 'steal me' too.


Also got some new chains and padlocks - but starting another thread for those.

So - new thread direction - what about a SV650 with full 'sportsbike' fairing, project bike tuned for lightness and handling, standard engine with no more power?


BTW - you guys and ladies are great - this is what the forum is all about - loads of different experience and information, the vast majority of it being intelligent stuff from sensible adults rather than chat-room ste from kids (that's why my posts are long - don't see the point in one-line answers, may as well be on IRC). It's looking more and more like I made an intelligent guess that turned out to be a mistake, but whilst it's a mistake, all I've lost is a bit of money. I've still had a lot of fun on the Ninjette and would heartily recommend it to new riders who aren't straying far from town - it's a weapon in town TBH, if you want the sportsbike 'look' then it's a brilliant urban weapon. The supermotos will be quicker urban tools but they're a different type of bike.
A couple of replies:

• bass GT3 - yeah, I've always loved the Buell. But there's no getting round the weight, and the litre engines are too much. Even if I put up with a naked (which I don't want) to limit top speed, the torque those things produce would, being honest with myself and my ability, be too much. Big torque means too much throttle will spin up the rear - in a corner you've got to be good not to highside, and I don't want to learn that on the road. Sadly I never did motocross as a kid;

• 3doorPete - cheers for the help, good to know you're nearby! I didn't want relentless engine tuning, and it does very much look like the Ninja will need it. So whilst I still have the same general idea, it looks like I'll have to take the advice here and start from a different bike. Lightness is still the goal though, so once it looks like a sensible plan is agreed, I'd love to meet up and see what you think of it

• BadgerBenji - sadly I'll have to disappoint you when it comes to building specials. I've never had a garage, or workshop. I'm enthusiastic but have no off-street parking or much in the way of flat land. Building a 'special', to me, means making something different out of existing parts. Bespoke parts are a problem for me, not only because since I'd have to outsource the fabrication I'd be held by the balls of my 'helpers' if I needed new parts, but also due to cost and because I couldn't get involved. My modified cars have always been 'cheque-book' affairs because I don't have anywhere to build a special myself. However, with a bike, I have a decent set of tools, enthusiasm, just about enough mechanical competence to disassemble and reassemble stuff, and I can do this on the small flat bit of road outside my house. You may sneer at it as 'cheque-book bolt-ons' - but to me that's more than I've ever done before. Even just replacing an exhaust can myself will be a new experience and great fun (actually I've done this with my old scooter, but this is different). It won't be *truly* unique, just my personal choice of off-the-shelf parts… so a 'parts-bin special' if you like. But what I gain from *that* is the ready ability to repair or replace parts if they fail. A one-off titanium fabrication that failed would be much more of a job to replace… unless you're a SolidWorks guru with a CNC mill in your workshop. It's baby steps, which is why I'm starting with a cheap, basic bike. But I'm going to have a lot of fun!

Sorry for the essay, BTW. Lots of replies in one post.

[bass gt3]

cyberface said:

• bass GT3 - yeah, I've always loved the Buell. But there's no getting round the weight, and the litre engines are too much. Even if I put up with a naked (which I don't want) to limit top speed, the torque those things produce would, being honest with myself and my ability, be too much. Big torque means too much throttle will spin up the rear - in a corner you've got to be good not to highside, and I don't want to learn that on the road. Sadly I never did motocross as a kid;

haha! Seriously, if you manage to spin the rear on a Buell 1203 aircooled, i'll sponsor you for a season in WSB!!
The Buell is a motor you could give to your granny in safe knowledge that she won't get hurt.
Re the weight, try one. The mass centralisation really does work, and they are incredible on A & B roads, especially the FireBolt with it's bikini fairing.
But the only way you'll ever know is to go out and seriously test ride all the biikes you fancy and be honest about their good and bad points. Then buy the one that makes no sense at all!!

[srob]

SV650, google Minitwins race series!

[Castrol Craig]

srob said:

SV650, google Minitwins race series!

hell yeah. some quick lads on them.

[snowy slopes]

Castrol Craig said:

i WAS building one until swmbo decided she would like another sprog. following that it was sold to a guy who used to work for honda f1, it had tigcraft chassis, rs250 swinger, ex 250gp wheels, rs125 forks with custom internals.

as far as i know, the guy is near build completion, iirc he had a more progressive linkage made (HE CAD DESIGNED IT HIMSELF) and has some designed and made some new yokes for adjustable offset.

i may even end up building one and running it myself, however im currently building a stockpile of zx7r based parts to build myself an 800cc, ilmor bodywork covered, zx6r suspended, mille swingarm shod zx7r.

I like the idea of the bike you were building a lot, might even be tempted down that route myself, but your idea for a zx7r sounds

[rhinochopig]

One of these was parked up in town over the weekend. Out of all the sports bikes etc that were next to it, it made them all look dull and boring.

80bhp so not silly fast, and decent handler if you believe the reviews. A bike that I could happily spend hours and lots of cash tweaking.



Sorry Cyberface, when you mentioned the 650 I immediately thought of this for some reason.

[Biker's Nemesis]

I've ridden a mini twins race bike on track and they're a good laugh, they handle well and stop pretty quick.

One of my mates who used to spend all summer riding the Nurburgring had a standard SV 650 road bike that I couldn't catch on my YZF 750sp.

He broke his back eventually.

[Castrol Craig]

snowy slopes said:

Castrol Craig said:

i WAS building one until swmbo decided she would like another sprog. following that it was sold to a guy who used to work for honda f1, it had tigcraft chassis, rs250 swinger, ex 250gp wheels, rs125 forks with custom internals.

as far as i know, the guy is near build completion, iirc he had a more progressive linkage made (HE CAD DESIGNED IT HIMSELF) and has some designed and made some new yokes for adjustable offset.

i may even end up building one and running it myself, however im currently building a stockpile of zx7r based parts to build myself an 800cc, ilmor bodywork covered, zx6r suspended, mille swingarm shod zx7r.

I like the idea of the bike you were building a lot, might even be tempted down that route myself, but your idea for a zx7r sounds

i think the 7r will be a couple of years away yet, i need a kit loom, airbox, an ohlins rear shock, 20mm internals for the forks, kit head, and a kit slipper clutch.

im HOPING for 140bhp and 185kg wet weight, with the weight saving of the wheels, suspension, swingarm, bodywork, loom, full system etc i think its acheivable.

[obscene]

Cyberface, send me a PM if you're selling. I may be interested as my sister has recently passed and is on a 33bhp licence like myself and it'd also double as a 2nd bike for me. Like you, I'm still weighing up all the options as I know my sister and I would like something faster after a year/two years but the idea is to become a beast in the corners.

[snowy slopes]

Sounds good craig, bet it will go like st of a chrome shovel

Cyberface, have you thought about tracking down a yamaha szr660(i think), sports style 660 single powered bike

Edited by snowy slopes on Tuesday 22 June 14:34

[snowy slopes]

Sounds good craig, bet it will go like st of a chrome shovel


Cyberface, what about a yamaha szr660, was a single cylinder powered sports bike, iirc it had about 48bhp and weighed about 159kg

Edited by snowy slopes on Tuesday 22 June 14:36

[Castrol Craig]

snowy slopes said:

Sounds good craig, bet it will go like st of a chrome shovel

maybe not in my hands (i can just about hold my own in the middle of the fast group) but the idea is i can learn on it and both me and the bike can get faster with age.

[srob]

Castrol Craig said:

srob said:

SV650, google Minitwins race series!

hell yeah. some quick lads on them.

Yeah, one of my mates has just started racing them. They look a great laugh!

[3doorPete]

@Cyberface - look forward to seeing the SV project. Roadgoing minitwins special on the cards there. I think you'll have a lot more luck in knowledge, parts fitting etc with one of those. 250R is a great little bike, and wonderful at what it's meant for.

@Castrol Craig - very much look forward to seeing your build up thread on the ZX8R!!! Still not sure what to do with mine as I'm not going to track it and am struggling with the riding position hammering my neck. Can see it becoming a concours project and garage queen at this rate, whilst I await for them to achieve true classic status in a few years.

[dtmpower]

Cyberface

I know you like your projects - maybe the Ninja was a non starter.

Not sure if it would go down well, and given that you don't like supermotards then maybe you might not like this suggestion.

Has anyone on pistonheads seen a race bike be converted for the road. I know the 125cc class might be practical but the 250cc class bikes could be converted for the road, possibly better with a road focused engine to make it a bit more practical.

I always fancied a Honda RS250 with a CR500 engine (or a 250cc from a road bike).

My first bike project was an ex race bike Aprilia RS125 - as it was a race bike it had no electrics. So I had a vacuum power valve , brake light and horn for daytime MOT along with a batter powered GU10 daytime running light. The body work was full race fairing with single seat.

[RumpleFugly]

Think you're ahead of the game...

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults...


Sorry on phone and can't format the url.

[Kawasicki]

cyberface said:

I can't imagine anything more frustrating than owning a *sports* machine that is designed and built to be ridden hard - and only being able to ride at 10% unless I had absolutely no regard for the laws of the land, speed limits, or safety.

I would advise against modifying the sv650, if you make it more competent at speed, you will spend more time at speed. You really should think about this. DO YOU WANT TO GO FAST OR NOT? A sorted sv650 will be friggin' rapid on a country road. 65bhp, 170kg and good tyres and suspension will mean big corner speed leading to BIG speed on the following straight. Which is great, if that's what you want. Buy an old aprilia RS125, or an old RGV125, ride it and enjoy it. You might actually spend some time under the speed limit!

[MC Bodge]

Kawasicki said:

I would advise against modifying the sv650....DO YOU WANT TO GO FAST OR NOT? A sorted sv650 will be friggin' rapid on a country road. 65bhp, 170kg and good tyres and suspension will mean big corner speed leading to BIG speed on the following straight. Which is great, if that's what you want.

It's true that even an SV650 is quite fast.

Which raises the question,
"are modern motorbikes too fast"?

<Dons protective clothing, revs up TDM and leaves at an adequate pace>

[obscene]

RumpleFugly said:

Think you're ahead of the game...

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults...


Sorry on phone and can't format the url.

I posted another thread on this, we'll have to which gets spotted first !