Starter/Battery Cable (How Long?)
Discussion
The idea of wiring in a starter relay is to eliminate all the possible weak points of the circuit
Fitting a stater relay into the original fusebox is defeating the object
This
with this
will do the job
found here https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/179...
Fitting a stater relay into the original fusebox is defeating the object
This
with this
will do the job
found here https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/179...
Hey folks,
So after my Tvr has been sitting for well over 24 months, this week I got it MOT’d and taxed.
Of course as I took it to the mot bay, switched off and went my time was called , click and she’s dead.
Waited 20 mins still no joy.
(I’d installed a new battery the week before !)
So after a short push start, the very nice mot dude passed her, despite a few ekks.
Driving home and temp hit 120, steam pouring through the bonnet. etc.
Pulled over and waited for 30” minutes, checked coolant all empty , so I topped the whole system , with 5 litres !
Quick push start and I limped home.
Today I did the partial meta bypass. @ the immobiliser end.
Started ( cold ) fine, than took her for a spin.
10 miles later, just off the m4 junction and as I slow down , she drops dead. Pushed off the road, by some kind gentleman, who then gave me a push start after 10 mins, away I go.
On route back home, again the same problem as I slow down to 20 mph she dies, try to jump it whilst it’s rolling, she almost starts but comes to a halt on the m4 flyover.
Rescuer toes me off, whilst he’s toeing , I slam it in 2nd
and way it goes.
I limp home.
So bypass made it worse it seems, but I’m puzzled why it conked out whilst rolling.
Question 1.
If it is the starter cable , which is last thing I haven’t changed yet, why would this be affected whilst driving.
Question 2.
On the battery, along with the main +ve cable there’s is a number of other wires, any idea where these go?
( one is the hot start kit I fitted long ago)
2 thick brown cables on a copper tube lug, where is this going ?
Cheers
Seb
Ps can anyone can recommend a good auto electrician west london way ?
So after my Tvr has been sitting for well over 24 months, this week I got it MOT’d and taxed.
Of course as I took it to the mot bay, switched off and went my time was called , click and she’s dead.
Waited 20 mins still no joy.
(I’d installed a new battery the week before !)
So after a short push start, the very nice mot dude passed her, despite a few ekks.
Driving home and temp hit 120, steam pouring through the bonnet. etc.
Pulled over and waited for 30” minutes, checked coolant all empty , so I topped the whole system , with 5 litres !
Quick push start and I limped home.
Today I did the partial meta bypass. @ the immobiliser end.
Started ( cold ) fine, than took her for a spin.
10 miles later, just off the m4 junction and as I slow down , she drops dead. Pushed off the road, by some kind gentleman, who then gave me a push start after 10 mins, away I go.
On route back home, again the same problem as I slow down to 20 mph she dies, try to jump it whilst it’s rolling, she almost starts but comes to a halt on the m4 flyover.
Rescuer toes me off, whilst he’s toeing , I slam it in 2nd
and way it goes.
I limp home.
So bypass made it worse it seems, but I’m puzzled why it conked out whilst rolling.
Question 1.
If it is the starter cable , which is last thing I haven’t changed yet, why would this be affected whilst driving.
Question 2.
On the battery, along with the main +ve cable there’s is a number of other wires, any idea where these go?
( one is the hot start kit I fitted long ago)
2 thick brown cables on a copper tube lug, where is this going ?
Cheers
Seb
Ps can anyone can recommend a good auto electrician west london way ?
I don't suffer from hot start issues - instead, I've just had a few occasions where the starter motor wouldn't turn.
I have the older Foxguard FG1alarm system.
I have a pretty new starter motor.
In trying to solve a different issue, I bypassed the ignition circuit on the immobiliser, and it has completely solved the non-starting issue, fires up reliably hot or cold. So I've made that bypass a reversible but properly installed feature. Nice. This would seem to be the same basic approach to the Meta alarm, and whilst I understand that the Foxguard system was not wired incorrectly, I still have surmised that it has been playing up after 28 years of service.
I did however find a very suspect degradation of the wiring to the hot start kit my car came with. I have sorted this by cleaning up the wire and replacing the connector.
The reason I'm posting is because in the discovery of the knackered wire on the hot start kit, I also noticed that the relay in that mini circuit is constantly warm, even when the car is stone cold, not driven for a few days. Anyone got any ideas?
Following this thread, I am seriously thinking about changing the thick wires out for a thicker grade (40-50mm2), and adding the additional earth wiring mentioned a few pages back, as I'd like to get rid of this relay, but I then wonder why it's warm, and whether there's another issue lurking behind it.
I have the older Foxguard FG1alarm system.
I have a pretty new starter motor.
In trying to solve a different issue, I bypassed the ignition circuit on the immobiliser, and it has completely solved the non-starting issue, fires up reliably hot or cold. So I've made that bypass a reversible but properly installed feature. Nice. This would seem to be the same basic approach to the Meta alarm, and whilst I understand that the Foxguard system was not wired incorrectly, I still have surmised that it has been playing up after 28 years of service.
I did however find a very suspect degradation of the wiring to the hot start kit my car came with. I have sorted this by cleaning up the wire and replacing the connector.
The reason I'm posting is because in the discovery of the knackered wire on the hot start kit, I also noticed that the relay in that mini circuit is constantly warm, even when the car is stone cold, not driven for a few days. Anyone got any ideas?
Following this thread, I am seriously thinking about changing the thick wires out for a thicker grade (40-50mm2), and adding the additional earth wiring mentioned a few pages back, as I'd like to get rid of this relay, but I then wonder why it's warm, and whether there's another issue lurking behind it.
looking at the installation of said relay I would suggest this is a possibility even just four wires can confuse the confused at times 
the coil is possibly powered constantly Id agree, trace the wires out and see where they go, its only a basic 4 pin relay.
Those blue crimps look poorly done and will need addressing, thats probably why there is evidence of burning.
Check it has a fuse too which you should find near the battery.
You should have a ground that is plugged into that unused relay base, a fused supply from the battery, a feed from ignition switch and one out to the starter solenoid.
The latter two are in the set of black cables you can just see in the picture without going into too much detail.
Those blue crimps look poorly done and will need addressing, thats probably why there is evidence of burning.
Check it has a fuse too which you should find near the battery.
You should have a ground that is plugged into that unused relay base, a fused supply from the battery, a feed from ignition switch and one out to the starter solenoid.
The latter two are in the set of black cables you can just see in the picture without going into too much detail.
Definitely no fuse on the red to the battery positive.
Ground goes to the unused base.
The other two are connected to the black wires in from the block with other black wires in.
I'm wondering if it's a home-made version of the hot start kit (though the previous owner cited an instruction/receipt in the record folder I've got).
I'm also wondering if the relay is stuck closed, so is constantly feeding the solenoid.
@sardonicus - when you say the coil is possibly powered constantly, do you mean in the solenoid of the starter motor?
Which would surely eventually kill the solenoid?
Quick fix is replace relay, right?
True fix is to follow the earlier posts from the long gone Chimpongas?
Ground goes to the unused base.
The other two are connected to the black wires in from the block with other black wires in.
I'm wondering if it's a home-made version of the hot start kit (though the previous owner cited an instruction/receipt in the record folder I've got).
I'm also wondering if the relay is stuck closed, so is constantly feeding the solenoid.
@sardonicus - when you say the coil is possibly powered constantly, do you mean in the solenoid of the starter motor?
Which would surely eventually kill the solenoid?
Quick fix is replace relay, right?
True fix is to follow the earlier posts from the long gone Chimpongas?
Buy yourself a proper relay and base and re wire it properly.
I can't see it being energised or the starter would be operating.
I'm assuming your referring to the large starter feed cable as well, you could replace it for peace of mind or inspect it first but access is difficult.
Something like a 35mm squared cable rated at 250 amps would be enough but you would need a decent crimping tool too.
I can't see it being energised or the starter would be operating.
I'm assuming your referring to the large starter feed cable as well, you could replace it for peace of mind or inspect it first but access is difficult.
Something like a 35mm squared cable rated at 250 amps would be enough but you would need a decent crimping tool too.
Great info y'all, thank you!
I just checked it, and there is a fuse on the +ve, it was just well tucked away in the bundle.
@Polly - your info has just figured it out, it was connected up as per the bottom circuit, incorrectly but works, yet holding the relay in.
I've just moved the connections to match the top circuit diagram, starter motor fires, and the relay is immediately cooler down. I will go back out later to check again!
You bloody superstar!
I've bypassed the ignition immobiliser, and I was having starting problems prior to doing that but not since. So I'm tempted to disconnect this hot start kit and give it a run out to get it hot and see how it goes: a test on the theory that the hot start problem is largely related to the Meta alarm wiring that I don't have, but might also expose whether my starter feed cable is ready to be changed/upgraded in size. I can obviously reconnect it all if I get stuck (just hope I don't get stuck in an awkward spot!)
And yes Belle I would consider replacing it for a thicker one, as well as the earth improvements.
@981Boxess - I am of the mind to try to eliminate the need for this kit, though to answer your point, this relay seems to click quite freely and the power is coming through.
I just checked it, and there is a fuse on the +ve, it was just well tucked away in the bundle.
@Polly - your info has just figured it out, it was connected up as per the bottom circuit, incorrectly but works, yet holding the relay in.
I've just moved the connections to match the top circuit diagram, starter motor fires, and the relay is immediately cooler down. I will go back out later to check again!
You bloody superstar!
I've bypassed the ignition immobiliser, and I was having starting problems prior to doing that but not since. So I'm tempted to disconnect this hot start kit and give it a run out to get it hot and see how it goes: a test on the theory that the hot start problem is largely related to the Meta alarm wiring that I don't have, but might also expose whether my starter feed cable is ready to be changed/upgraded in size. I can obviously reconnect it all if I get stuck (just hope I don't get stuck in an awkward spot!)
And yes Belle I would consider replacing it for a thicker one, as well as the earth improvements.
@981Boxess - I am of the mind to try to eliminate the need for this kit, though to answer your point, this relay seems to click quite freely and the power is coming through.
PabloGee said:
@981Boxess - I am of the mind to try to eliminate the need for this kit, though to answer your point, this relay seems to click quite freely and the power is coming through.
If I have understood you correctly if you are thinking of doing away with a relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid that isn’t a great idea.Just do a better job or wiring it up and if the relay is suspect in any way, bin it.
@Polly
I just went out, and the relay is now cold, so it was clearly connected up wrong.
And the car still fires up.
@Boxess
It's the famous Modwise hot start relay kit, the aftermarket add-on that is discussed, loved and derided in equal measure (an early version of it at least).
I won't be removing it until I understand how to put a relay in to the starter solenoid circuit overall - with my lack of knowledge (thus far), it appears that this relay set up is actually achieving that, no?
As the early pages of this thread include, TVR never put a relay in to this circuit (despite it being considered best practice) to protect the ignition switch if nothing else, so I would definitely like to know how to do it properly.
Any guidance is welcome.
I just went out, and the relay is now cold, so it was clearly connected up wrong.
And the car still fires up.
@Boxess
It's the famous Modwise hot start relay kit, the aftermarket add-on that is discussed, loved and derided in equal measure (an early version of it at least).
I won't be removing it until I understand how to put a relay in to the starter solenoid circuit overall - with my lack of knowledge (thus far), it appears that this relay set up is actually achieving that, no?
As the early pages of this thread include, TVR never put a relay in to this circuit (despite it being considered best practice) to protect the ignition switch if nothing else, so I would definitely like to know how to do it properly.
Any guidance is welcome.
PabloGee said:
@Boxess
It's the famous Modwise hot start relay kit, the aftermarket add-on that is discussed, loved and derided in equal measure (an early version of it at least).
I won't be removing it until I understand how to put a relay in to the starter solenoid circuit overall - with my lack of knowledge (thus far), it appears that this relay set up is actually achieving that, no?
As the early pages of this thread include, TVR never put a relay in to this circuit (despite it being considered best practice) to protect the ignition switch if nothing else, so I would definitely like to know how to do it properly.
Any guidance is welcome.
Wired up correctly the Modwise kit does the same job as any other 4 pin relay in between the ignition switch and starter.It's the famous Modwise hot start relay kit, the aftermarket add-on that is discussed, loved and derided in equal measure (an early version of it at least).
I won't be removing it until I understand how to put a relay in to the starter solenoid circuit overall - with my lack of knowledge (thus far), it appears that this relay set up is actually achieving that, no?
As the early pages of this thread include, TVR never put a relay in to this circuit (despite it being considered best practice) to protect the ignition switch if nothing else, so I would definitely like to know how to do it properly.
Any guidance is welcome.
If some muppet wired that relay so it was permanently energised I am surprised it lasted very long and also that it didn’t run the battery down - a bit strange.
Your reference earlier to the starter failing to turn IS the so-called 'hot start' issue. Either the failing immobiliser relay or just age and crispiness of the cables to the solenoid mean it does not engage when the engine is hot or even slightly warm if really bad! Many starters have been changed when they were fine, including mine. 
The ignition switch that the key engages can start to have a high resistance with age too. It's a Vauxhall item and I have replaced that too. 
I wired a starter solenoid into the start cct for my Griff, following the suggestion on this thread:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16...
Basically, you take the supply going to the solenoid that passes through the ignition switch and the immobiliser to energise a 12V relay, and use battery power to engage the solenoid. £10 worth of parts including a relay and some spade crimp connectors, but you need to get under the car and remove the started to do a neat job.
The ignition switch that the key engages can start to have a high resistance with age too. It's a Vauxhall item and I have replaced that too. I wired a starter solenoid into the start cct for my Griff, following the suggestion on this thread:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=16...
Basically, you take the supply going to the solenoid that passes through the ignition switch and the immobiliser to energise a 12V relay, and use battery power to engage the solenoid. £10 worth of parts including a relay and some spade crimp connectors, but you need to get under the car and remove the started to do a neat job.
sixor8 said:
Basically, you take the supply going to the solenoid that passes through the ignition switch and the immobiliser to energise a 12V relay, and use battery power to engage the solenoid. £10 worth of parts including a relay and some spade crimp connectors, but you need to get under the car and remove the started to do a neat job.
Someone (David Beer) worked out what needed doing to resolve the problem, knocked up an easy to follow DIY kit and called it the Modwise Hot Start kit.Perfect for people whose area of expertise isn’t car electrics.
sixor8 said:
Yes, but it just disguised the damaged relay in the immobiliser. It's easier to do at the starter end I reckoned, because adding it to the break-out wiring by the battery utilises a lot of the now 'crispy-ish' wiring.
It takes very little current to energise a relay so even when the relays were damaged (as opposed to dead) it would still work reliably.Obviously it is always better to replace old stuff with new but not always necessary.
981Boxess said:
Wired up correctly the Modwise kit does the same job as any other 4 pin relay in between the ignition switch and starter.
If some muppet wired that relay so it was permanently energised I am surprised it lasted very long and also that it didn’t run the battery down - a bit strange.
Something does run the battery down, I keep it on a charger/maintainer.If some muppet wired that relay so it was permanently energised I am surprised it lasted very long and also that it didn’t run the battery down - a bit strange.
But I'm tempted to test this now that I've wired this relay correctly, and disconnect the maintainer for a couple of days and see where it gets to.
I don't want to derail this topic as it's useful to keep it clean, but I already have the interior light relay replaced with a bridging wire (the favourite start point for battery drain). I get around 10-14 days before the alarm gets unhappy and starts wailing like a dying seal, and in this increasingly cold weather I would probably keep it connected up anyway (car lives outside, and gets driven).
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