Starter/Battery Cable (How Long?)
Discussion
David Beer said:
It is absolutely impossible to cure the non cranking hot start issue with this rewire. It may improve the crank speed however.
Neither will a cheap relay that just disguises the true fault.Actually, the truth is many TVR's that have a hot start problem do indeed exhibit the slow starter, or no starter, precisely because the resistance is so high in the feeble & very long starter cable when it gets hot.
Replacing the starter lead is not a complete solution per-say, because there are in fact two different issues at play here.
Upgrading the starter cable should be used in addition to correctly resolving the most common reason these cars suffer from the hot start problem.
THE IMMOBILISER.
Or more accurately the way TVR wired the immobiliser.
My two modifications are proven, & unlike the relay kit are a permanent solution, they also don't add yet more poor quality wiring to an already bad situation.
Fixing the issues my way will not leave you with a false sense of security like the other supposed solution.
When the immobiliser finally gives up one dark night at a distant petrol station, you'll regret the day you bought that cheap additional relay.
I strongly recommend doing the job properly by completing an immobiliser bypass on the higher amp starter solenoid circuit, or better still a correctly wired replacement alarm system.
Upgrade the feeble tired 7ft starter cable and add an addition earth from the neg battery terminal directly to the engine block.
This way you'll be sorting the problem properly & for good, rather than disguising the true fault only for it to return at the most inconvenient moment.
Unlike others, I'm not selling anything here, just trying to help other TVR owners sort the problem permanently & properly.
Replacing the big cable will only improve crank speed, putting a relay back into the circuit, TVR removed it, will supply the solenoid with 13amp rather than 6! The details have always been free from me or from the griff and chim pages. Glad to see you realised the non cranking was solenoid supply at fault.
David Beer said:
Replacing the big cable will only improve crank speed, putting a relay back into the circuit, TVR removed it, will supply the solenoid with 13amp rather than 6! The details have always been free from me or from the griff and chim pages. Glad to see you realised the non cranking was solenoid supply at fault.
As I keep saying there are two distinct issues, both of which need addressing.The failure of TVR to fit a dedicated relay in the starter circuit is certainty not best practice but it's also not the whole story behind the hot start fault.
If you do the immobiliser bypass & improve the amps to the starter the problem will disappear, with or without a relay.
Adding a relay at this point is indeed recommended as a belt & braces permanent & completely reliable solution.
However the relay in isolation should not be relied upon a definitive fix, marketing it as such is at best misleading in my opinion.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Friday 1st March 10:53
UPDATE
Fittted my new heavy duty starter cable and additional earth last weekend.
I can't claim it was an easy job getting the cables through the grommet & routed nicely even with my helper rope in place.
After much struggling it all fitted in there very well, new Odyssey PC1500 battery in place and topped off with a BatteryBrain.
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
All that remained was to arrange a nice hot start test, which came sooner that I expected after a run into London left me idling in horrific Finchley Rd traffic on Wednesday evening.
Turned the engine off after idling for quite a while only to see the line of cars up ahead had started pull away, typical
A perfect hot start test, this is just the scenario where the car would typically refuse to crank until it had cooled for 5-10 minutes.
Typically this would also generate much honking from the cars behind as they could see their only chance to move slipping away as the Muppet in front frantically tried to start his TVR.
Grrrrrrrr
So how did this all play out with the new cables?
Turn the key & pray.........
And she starts first time! in fact it cranks like never before
Success, hot start problem completely eliminated, just as I had predicted that thin guage 7.5ft starter cable was clearly the issue.
You say the big fat cable was the cure for the hot start, might of been a cure for slow cranking but not the total lack of cranking. you cured that by a supply to the solenoid, bypass!
I have always maintained An additional earth from batt neg to engine block is the easiest way to increase cranking when hot.
you should say that your big fat cable will only cure the slow crank when hot, you still need to do something on the solenoid side a relay is best, you can shorten the cable run but going back to range rover quality by fitting the relay is easiest and the best solution. As for the total cure for the hot start, I would say only a few are not cured and the relay should be there to stop the immobiliser from going again.
Fittted my new heavy duty starter cable and additional earth last weekend.
I can't claim it was an easy job getting the cables through the grommet & routed nicely even with my helper rope in place.
After much struggling it all fitted in there very well, new Odyssey PC1500 battery in place and topped off with a BatteryBrain.
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
All that remained was to arrange a nice hot start test, which came sooner that I expected after a run into London left me idling in horrific Finchley Rd traffic on Wednesday evening.
Turned the engine off after idling for quite a while only to see the line of cars up ahead had started pull away, typical
A perfect hot start test, this is just the scenario where the car would typically refuse to crank until it had cooled for 5-10 minutes.
Typically this would also generate much honking from the cars behind as they could see their only chance to move slipping away as the Muppet in front frantically tried to start his TVR.
Grrrrrrrr
So how did this all play out with the new cables?
Turn the key & pray.........
And she starts first time! in fact it cranks like never before
Success, hot start problem completely eliminated, just as I had predicted that thin guage 7.5ft starter cable was clearly the issue.
You say the big fat cable was the cure for the hot start, might of been a cure for slow cranking but not the total lack of cranking. you cured that by a supply to the solenoid, bypass!
I have always maintained An additional earth from batt neg to engine block is the easiest way to increase cranking when hot.
you should say that your big fat cable will only cure the slow crank when hot, you still need to do something on the solenoid side a relay is best, you can shorten the cable run but going back to range rover quality by fitting the relay is easiest and the best solution. As for the total cure for the hot start, I would say only a few are not cured and the relay should be there to stop the immobiliser from going again.
David Beer said:
UPDATE
Fittted my new heavy duty starter cable and additional earth last weekend.
I can't claim it was an easy job getting the cables through the grommet & routed nicely even with my helper rope in place.
After much struggling it all fitted in there very well, new Odyssey PC1500 battery in place and topped off with a BatteryBrain.
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
All that remained was to arrange a nice hot start test, which came sooner that I expected after a run into London left me idling in horrific Finchley Rd traffic on Wednesday evening.
Turned the engine off after idling for quite a while only to see the line of cars up ahead had started pull away, typical
A perfect hot start test, this is just the scenario where the car would typically refuse to crank until it had cooled for 5-10 minutes.
Typically this would also generate much honking from the cars behind as they could see their only chance to move slipping away as the Muppet in front frantically tried to start his TVR.
Grrrrrrrr
So how did this all play out with the new cables?
Turn the key & pray.........
And she starts first time! in fact it cranks like never before
Success, hot start problem completely eliminated, just as I had predicted that thin guage 7.5ft starter cable was clearly the issue.
You say the big fat cable was the cure for the hot start, might of been a cure for slow cranking but not the total lack of cranking. you cured that by a supply to the solenoid, bypass!
I have always maintained An additional earth from batt neg to engine block is the easiest way to increase cranking when hot.
you should say that your big fat cable will only cure the slow crank when hot, you still need to do something on the solenoid side a relay is best, you can shorten the cable run but going back to range rover quality by fitting the relay is easiest and the best solution. As for the total cure for the hot start, I would say only a few are not cured and the relay should be there to stop the immobiliser from going again.
Fittted my new heavy duty starter cable and additional earth last weekend.
I can't claim it was an easy job getting the cables through the grommet & routed nicely even with my helper rope in place.
After much struggling it all fitted in there very well, new Odyssey PC1500 battery in place and topped off with a BatteryBrain.
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
All that remained was to arrange a nice hot start test, which came sooner that I expected after a run into London left me idling in horrific Finchley Rd traffic on Wednesday evening.
Turned the engine off after idling for quite a while only to see the line of cars up ahead had started pull away, typical
A perfect hot start test, this is just the scenario where the car would typically refuse to crank until it had cooled for 5-10 minutes.
Typically this would also generate much honking from the cars behind as they could see their only chance to move slipping away as the Muppet in front frantically tried to start his TVR.
Grrrrrrrr
So how did this all play out with the new cables?
Turn the key & pray.........
And she starts first time! in fact it cranks like never before
Success, hot start problem completely eliminated, just as I had predicted that thin guage 7.5ft starter cable was clearly the issue.
You say the big fat cable was the cure for the hot start, might of been a cure for slow cranking but not the total lack of cranking. you cured that by a supply to the solenoid, bypass!
I have always maintained An additional earth from batt neg to engine block is the easiest way to increase cranking when hot.
you should say that your big fat cable will only cure the slow crank when hot, you still need to do something on the solenoid side a relay is best, you can shorten the cable run but going back to range rover quality by fitting the relay is easiest and the best solution. As for the total cure for the hot start, I would say only a few are not cured and the relay should be there to stop the immobiliser from going again.
As I have said many times before fit the hot start mod and you will save the Meta Immobilizer internal relay (obviously not teaching you to suck eggs David as you know already) my brothers Chim with the Meta alarm suffered the hot-start problem for 2 summers (only time it comes out) before I did the relay mod its turned over hot ever since (3 years +) and without him resorting to get the Meta repaired/looked at 
limit the load on the Meta and it will live a longer happier life 
Got my bespoke Battery bracket and install kit with a new Odyssey PC925 battery ,just got to get my a
e in to gear .
I wanted fit it behind the seat but i have zero fibreglass sklls ,are you saying i can run two ground cables ,one to the chassis and the other to the engine ..Where do i connect the cable to the engine .Can one ground come from the battery then link from the chassis to the engine or do i need to run to seperate one`s.
Where do i start ripping this alarm out ?
e in to gear .I wanted fit it behind the seat but i have zero fibreglass sklls ,are you saying i can run two ground cables ,one to the chassis and the other to the engine ..Where do i connect the cable to the engine .Can one ground come from the battery then link from the chassis to the engine or do i need to run to seperate one`s.
Where do i start ripping this alarm out ?
Edited by SILICONEKID350HP on Friday 1st March 21:39
Can someone explain how the hot start kit (which at the end of the day is just a relay) repairs years of pitting on the contact faces of the relay inside the Meta immobiliser unit.
I am struggling to understand the mysterious magical forces at foot here.
Does the hot start kit reverse years on contact face pitting?
Does the hot start kit open up the Meta unit and replace the worn out relay with a new one?
Does it reverse the path of electrons through the worn out Meta immobiliser relay to give it a whole new lease of life?
Could it be a whole new scientific discovery has been found debunking everything known & understood about physics & electrical theory for over 100 years.
If so I'd love to hear about it!
Or could it be the hot start kit just masks the real problem for a while, only for it to return at a later date leaving you stranded in the dark & cold one night wondering why the hot start problem has returned even though you fitted the hot start kit?
I am really struggling to understand just how the application of an addition relay (the hot start kit) can possibly repair the worn out Meta relay that's buried & potted into the immobiliser unit.
I'm sorry, but if the Meta relay is burnt & pitted, which it will be, your only two choices to resolve the problem (which is the real reason for the hot start fault), is to either replace the whole immobiliser unit, or bypass it completely.
There is no relay in the world known to mankind that can repair years of damage on another relay.
It's a scientific and physical impossibility, the damage to the contact faces on the Meta relay has been done, period, its completely irreversible, FACT!
And its simply because that Meta relay was never nan enough for the job, this was also compounded by the fact TVR wired it back to front.
That damage remains no matter if you fit the hot start kit or not, so what also remains is the fault.
If you are not paying attention here the next time you'll discover this will be when you can't start your car at the most inconvenient moment, hot start kit fitted or not!
I am struggling to understand the mysterious magical forces at foot here.
Does the hot start kit reverse years on contact face pitting?
Does the hot start kit open up the Meta unit and replace the worn out relay with a new one?
Does it reverse the path of electrons through the worn out Meta immobiliser relay to give it a whole new lease of life?
Could it be a whole new scientific discovery has been found debunking everything known & understood about physics & electrical theory for over 100 years.
If so I'd love to hear about it!
Or could it be the hot start kit just masks the real problem for a while, only for it to return at a later date leaving you stranded in the dark & cold one night wondering why the hot start problem has returned even though you fitted the hot start kit?
I am really struggling to understand just how the application of an addition relay (the hot start kit) can possibly repair the worn out Meta relay that's buried & potted into the immobiliser unit.
I'm sorry, but if the Meta relay is burnt & pitted, which it will be, your only two choices to resolve the problem (which is the real reason for the hot start fault), is to either replace the whole immobiliser unit, or bypass it completely.
There is no relay in the world known to mankind that can repair years of damage on another relay.
It's a scientific and physical impossibility, the damage to the contact faces on the Meta relay has been done, period, its completely irreversible, FACT!
And its simply because that Meta relay was never nan enough for the job, this was also compounded by the fact TVR wired it back to front.
That damage remains no matter if you fit the hot start kit or not, so what also remains is the fault.
If you are not paying attention here the next time you'll discover this will be when you can't start your car at the most inconvenient moment, hot start kit fitted or not!
TV8 said:
The beech volume knobs made me chuckle - I work for a HiFi manufacturer and you should see some of the things people do to our kit! Insides of power amplifiers doused with magic "damping fluids" (actually - probably real "snake oil") and safety interlocks on mechanisms removed... *sigh*ChimpOnGas said:
Can someone explain how the hot start kit (which at the end of the day is just a relay) repairs years of pitting on the contact faces of the relay inside the Meta immobiliser unit.
I am struggling to understand the mysterious magical forces at foot here.
Does the hot start kit reverse years on contact face pitting?
Does the hot start kit open up the Meta unit and replace the worn out relay with a new one?
Does it reverse the path of electrons through the worn out Meta immobiliser relay to give it a whole new lease of life?
Could it be a whole new scientific discovery has been found debunking everything known & understood about physics & electrical theory for over 100 years.
If so I'd love to hear about it!
Or could it be the hot start kit just masks the real problem for a while, only for it to return at a later date leaving you stranded in the dark & cold one night wondering why the hot start problem has returned even though you fitted the hot start kit?
I am really struggling to understand just how the application of an addition relay (the hot start kit) can possibly repair the worn out Meta relay that's buried & potted into the immobiliser unit.
iI'm sorry, but if the Meta relay is burnt & pitted, which it will be, your only two choices to resolve the problem (which is the real reason for the hot start fault), is to either replace the whole immobiliser unit, or bypass it completely.
There is no relay in the world known to mankind that can repair years of damage on another relay.
It's a scientific and physical impossibility, the damage to the contact faces on the Meta relay has been done, period, its completely irreversible, FACT!
And its simply because that Meta relay was never nan enough for the job, this was also compounded by the fact TVR wired it back to front.
That damage remains no matter if you fit the hot start kit or not, so what also remains is the fault.
If you are not paying attention here the next time you'll discover this will be when you can't start your car at the most inconvenient moment, hot start kit fitted or not!
Because not all Hot Start faults are down to the Meta but by fitting the Hot Start relay you are removing the load through said Meta contacts thus saving/prolonging their lifespan.I am struggling to understand the mysterious magical forces at foot here.
Does the hot start kit reverse years on contact face pitting?
Does the hot start kit open up the Meta unit and replace the worn out relay with a new one?
Does it reverse the path of electrons through the worn out Meta immobiliser relay to give it a whole new lease of life?
Could it be a whole new scientific discovery has been found debunking everything known & understood about physics & electrical theory for over 100 years.
If so I'd love to hear about it!
Or could it be the hot start kit just masks the real problem for a while, only for it to return at a later date leaving you stranded in the dark & cold one night wondering why the hot start problem has returned even though you fitted the hot start kit?
I am really struggling to understand just how the application of an addition relay (the hot start kit) can possibly repair the worn out Meta relay that's buried & potted into the immobiliser unit.
iI'm sorry, but if the Meta relay is burnt & pitted, which it will be, your only two choices to resolve the problem (which is the real reason for the hot start fault), is to either replace the whole immobiliser unit, or bypass it completely.
There is no relay in the world known to mankind that can repair years of damage on another relay.
It's a scientific and physical impossibility, the damage to the contact faces on the Meta relay has been done, period, its completely irreversible, FACT!
And its simply because that Meta relay was never nan enough for the job, this was also compounded by the fact TVR wired it back to front.
That damage remains no matter if you fit the hot start kit or not, so what also remains is the fault.
If you are not paying attention here the next time you'll discover this will be when you can't start your car at the most inconvenient moment, hot start kit fitted or not!
You all seem to be making a lot of the immobilizer, but the immobilizer contacts are latched independently of the starter operation ie all on/off with the immob operation at completely different times to when they are switching loads. The main mech / arcing is in the ignition switch, a relay will remove that load, albeit putting it all on the relay contacts (& relays aren't exactly cheap these days..).
Heat deflection & temp resistant grease in the solenoid are the key fixes to starter problems IMO & IME. Finding ways to crank more current into a stiff solenoid is just asking for trouble in the long run IMHO. It's a bit like driving with a broken diff & then wondering why the casing only contains shrapnel when you open it up ~ pretty obvious how a worn bearing will result in a catastrophic failure if you force it...? By all means make all the mods you want, but please ensure the solenoid circuit is governed by a sensible fuse (like only 10A should be plenty).
Heat deflection & temp resistant grease in the solenoid are the key fixes to starter problems IMO & IME. Finding ways to crank more current into a stiff solenoid is just asking for trouble in the long run IMHO. It's a bit like driving with a broken diff & then wondering why the casing only contains shrapnel when you open it up ~ pretty obvious how a worn bearing will result in a catastrophic failure if you force it...? By all means make all the mods you want, but please ensure the solenoid circuit is governed by a sensible fuse (like only 10A should be plenty).
Thats my point Dave/Spend 
the starter solenoid piston and any lubricant that once was gets fried by the exhaust heat and its usually this reason that gets the ball rolling and causes the hot start problem, this also does the known fragile Vauxhall ign switch no favours either 
bearing in mind that the Chimaera as not always been fitted with the so called trouble Meta system (unfair IMO) Dave/Chimp-on-gas the hot starting problem was documented before the Meta system got fitted to these cars i.e pre early 96ish
the starter solenoid piston and any lubricant that once was gets fried by the exhaust heat and its usually this reason that gets the ball rolling and causes the hot start problem, this also does the known fragile Vauxhall ign switch no favours either bearing in mind that the Chimaera as not always been fitted with the so called trouble Meta system (unfair IMO) Dave/Chimp-on-gas the hot starting problem was documented before the Meta system got fitted to these cars i.e pre early 96ish Edited by Sardonicus on Saturday 2nd March 18:10
Sardonicus said:
Thats my point Dave/Spend the starter solenoid piston and any lubricant that once was gets fried by the exhaust heat and its usually this reason that gets the ball rolling and causes the hot start problem, this also does the known fragile Vauxhall ign switch no favours either bearing in mind that the Chimaera as not always been fitted with the so called trouble Meta system (unfair IMO) Dave/Chimp-on-gas the hot starting problem was documented before the Meta system got fitted to these cars i.e pre early 96ish
That's true but not so common. Ten amp is not enough to bring in the solenoid, that's why most manufacturerrs use a relay. Of course the speed sixes have a relay the starter solenoid piston and any lubricant that once was gets fried by the exhaust heat and its usually this reason that gets the ball rolling and causes the hot start problem, this also does the known fragile Vauxhall ign switch no favours either bearing in mind that the Chimaera as not always been fitted with the so called trouble Meta system (unfair IMO) Dave/Chimp-on-gas the hot starting problem was documented before the Meta system got fitted to these cars i.e pre early 96ish Edited by Sardonicus on Saturday 2nd March 18:10
So - in summary - we have a number of contributing factors of which, when taken individually and in isolation, none are a definitive cause of a specific problem (in this case generically refferred to as "the hot start issue") they can all contribute to causing this phenomenon.
Therefore, best practice would appear to be to eliminate as many of the contributing factors as possible, no?
Therefore, best practice would appear to be to eliminate as many of the contributing factors as possible, no?
Bassfiend229hp said:
So - in summary - we have a number of contributing factors of which, when taken individually and in isolation, none are a definitive cause of a specific problem (in this case generically refferred to as "the hot start issue") they can all contribute to causing this phenomenon.
Therefore, best practice would appear to be to eliminate as many of the contributing factors as possible, no?
That's it, well done, spot on Phil Therefore, best practice would appear to be to eliminate as many of the contributing factors as possible, no?
Your comments are the best & most concise conclusion to all this I've ever seen
All I would add is that the immobiliser is far and away the most likely cause of what is commonly referred to as "The Hot Start Fault".
Carl Baker made a living out of the fact TVR wired the immobiliser incorrectly, he told me as much when I discussed with him at length what I'd found on my car.
If you look way back at discussions on TVR reliability it was also a big problem when the cars were current, now look at the last year of PH & amazingly you'll see a huge number of people are still suffering from the problem.
All the evidence suggests the immobiliser, or more accurately the way TVR wired it, & the fault that creates, represents the largest cause of Chim or Griff no starts by a country mile.
If you really want to make these cars start reliably hot or cold just follow the following 4 steps.
Step 1: Bypass the immobiliser on the starter solenoid circuit or replace the entire alarm system properly
Step 2: Improve the tired old feeble hugely long battery to starter cable with something better
Step 3: Add in an additional earth from the battery neg terminal to the engine block
Step 4: Add a suitable relay to the starter solenoid circuit where TVR neglected to fit one
As long as your battery & starter motor are in good shape you can say goodbye your TVR failure to start issues for good
You will end up with a Chim or Griff that cranks like you never thought possible, You'll also be improving it's reliability by a 1000%.
Finally it seems these cars do seem to suffer parasitic battery drains more than most.
This can be due to many reasons, so each car needs to be assessed in isolation by a competent auto electrician.
I traced my parasitic drain to the alarm, or more specifically the microwave sensor.
This added more weight to the argument for getting the complete alarm system professionally replaced.
However as an interim solution I just added a Battery Brain, which worked so well it a solution I would recommend to anyone with the battery drain problem but who doesn't necessarily have a spare £600 for a new alarm/immobiliser system.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 3rd March 16:55
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