Starter/Battery Cable (How Long?)
Discussion
Every car should have a starter relay fitted regardless as to whether the car has an immobiliser or not, the closer the relay is fitted to the starter the better but it does need to be fitted in a dry place, the relay also needs to be a heavy duty one, a 70/80 amp contact current rating will last much longer than a 30/40 amp rated relay
A starter relay removes the high starter solenoid current form the ignition switch and several wiring loom termination points, the whole circuit is much more reliable with a relay wired into it and the ignition switch will last for a much longer period due to it no longer carrying high starter solenoid current
A starter relay removes the high starter solenoid current form the ignition switch and several wiring loom termination points, the whole circuit is much more reliable with a relay wired into it and the ignition switch will last for a much longer period due to it no longer carrying high starter solenoid current
Englishman said:
As in the third paragraph of my previous post, my Griff has a Laserline immobiliser fitted, so most of the above is not directly applicable in my case.
But I would suggest that the hot start kit is a valid low cost work-around in some cases, and judging from earlier posts in this and many other threads, quite a few owners have successfully used it as such. Yes, all it does is to provide another source of power to engage the solenoid, but if that fixes the issue what is wrong with that? A few pounds as opposed to several hundreds to replace and/or rewire the immobiliser.
In fact, talking to TVR staff, TVR dealers and TVR owners over many years, the root cause of many hot start issues of V8 engined cars seems to be heat soak of the starter motor and solenoid, reducing tolerances, causing resistance to movement in the solenoid. This in turn means the solenoid tries to draw more current. Some dealers fitted a heat resistant covering around the starter to reduce the issue, including to my 390SE and 450SE, some just changed starter motors when the issue occurred, such as on my first Griff 500. Providing more current, when needed, such as via the hot start kit or rewiring (replacing if needed) the Meta immobiliser so the beefier relay is used, will both help too.
The solenoid has a pull-in winding and a hold-in winding, the pull-in winding current is much higher than the hold-in winding currentBut I would suggest that the hot start kit is a valid low cost work-around in some cases, and judging from earlier posts in this and many other threads, quite a few owners have successfully used it as such. Yes, all it does is to provide another source of power to engage the solenoid, but if that fixes the issue what is wrong with that? A few pounds as opposed to several hundreds to replace and/or rewire the immobiliser.
In fact, talking to TVR staff, TVR dealers and TVR owners over many years, the root cause of many hot start issues of V8 engined cars seems to be heat soak of the starter motor and solenoid, reducing tolerances, causing resistance to movement in the solenoid. This in turn means the solenoid tries to draw more current. Some dealers fitted a heat resistant covering around the starter to reduce the issue, including to my 390SE and 450SE, some just changed starter motors when the issue occurred, such as on my first Griff 500. Providing more current, when needed, such as via the hot start kit or rewiring (replacing if needed) the Meta immobiliser so the beefier relay is used, will both help too.
The solenoid pull-in phase is switched to the hold-in phase once the main heavy duty motor contact becomes live
If the solenoid or pinion are tight due to bush wear, hardened or lack of grease, the solenoid takes longer to engage the pinion fully into the flywheel and make the battery to motor contacts. The longer it takes the solenoid to engage the pinion fully, the longer the ignition switch starter circuit and all this circuits cables will be drawing full pull-in current...Not Good
Crikey, that escalated!!
Thank you, chaps.
One thing: electrons are negative charge carriers therefore they travel around the start cable circuit from the negative to the positive terminals. :P Meeeee? A pedant?!?! Sorry, where's my coat?
Well, once I'm fixed up I will investigate. TBF it starts fine, but I prefer prevention than reaction, so I'll get in there. I'm not above rerouting the cables. 7'...... That's gotta be unnecessary... Surely!
Ed.
Thank you, chaps.
One thing: electrons are negative charge carriers therefore they travel around the start cable circuit from the negative to the positive terminals. :P Meeeee? A pedant?!?! Sorry, where's my coat?
Well, once I'm fixed up I will investigate. TBF it starts fine, but I prefer prevention than reaction, so I'll get in there. I'm not above rerouting the cables. 7'...... That's gotta be unnecessary... Surely!
Ed.
ed_crouch said:
Crikey, that escalated!!
Thank you, chaps.
One thing: electrons are negative charge carriers therefore they travel around the start cable circuit from the negative to the positive terminals. :P Meeeee? A pedant?!?! Sorry, where's my coat?Ed.
Spot on, as is the advice its best practice to fit a relay in the starter solenoid circuit.Thank you, chaps.
One thing: electrons are negative charge carriers therefore they travel around the start cable circuit from the negative to the positive terminals. :P Meeeee? A pedant?!?! Sorry, where's my coat?Ed.
I cover this in my immobiliser bypass instructions, saying that I when I did this some seven years ago I never bothered to fit one myself and my ignition switch has held up perfectly without a relay.
What I did do however was rip out the pointless hot start kit a previous owner had fitted, it clearly didnt work as I had cranking issues. Using correct diagnostic proceedure and a multimeter I traced the fault to the immobiliser, as soon as I'd bypassed it the car sprang into life.
The starter cable and earth upgrade was the cherry on the cake.
Am I right I assuming the circuit the modwise kit was added to is as below, cutting the immobiliser to starter solenoid cable and then adding the relay?
I removed it and added a 40 amp relay and a new 30 amp cable to solenoid but didn't really check out the wiring path.
Ignition switch ------- immobiliser -------- starter solenoid
I removed it and added a 40 amp relay and a new 30 amp cable to solenoid but didn't really check out the wiring path.
Ignition switch ------- immobiliser -------- starter solenoid
Belle427 said:
Am I right I assuming the circuit the modwise kit was added to is as below, cutting the immobiliser to starter solenoid cable and then adding the relay?
I removed it and added a 40 amp relay and a new 30 amp cable to solenoid but didn't really check out the wiring path.
Ignition switch ------- immobiliser -------- starter solenoid
This is the point, the hot start kit does not bypass the immobiliser so if the relay contacts in the immobiliser are damaged/pitted which they almost certainly will be its not going to help.I removed it and added a 40 amp relay and a new 30 amp cable to solenoid but didn't really check out the wiring path.
Ignition switch ------- immobiliser -------- starter solenoid
There are two relays potted deep inside the Meta unit, one lower amp one intended for the ECU and one higher amp relay intended for the starter solenoid. TVR wired the ECU through the higher amp relay which isnt an issue but wiring the starter solenoid through the lower amp Meta relay most certainly was.
Theres no way on Gods earth the Modwise hot start kit is going to miraculously repair the damage done over the years to that little low amp relay inside the Meta immobiliser caused by TVR running more amps through it than it was designed for.
I suspect the designer of the hot start kit was well meaning when he created it, but because he failed to understand the real reason for the issue he actually inadvertently sold hundreds of false promises to the TVR community who felt reassured by fitting the hot start kit.
Sadly the hot start kit is the worst kind of false promise because it gives owners the belief they've fixed all their starting issues for good, while claiming to solve a problem it actually leaves the true underlying fault very much in place ready to catch the owner out at the most inconvenient moment.
When the Meta relay finally gives out (and eventually it will) the owner with the hot start kit fitted is left completely perplexed as to why his car is failing to start
The hot start kit is fundimentally just a relay, while it is automotive wiring best practice to fit a relay in the starter circuit its purpose is to protect and extend the life of the contacts inside the ignition switch not to privide more amps to the starter solenoid as the designer of the hot start kit will have you believe.
The hot start kit is a badly assembled collection of wires and a micro relay thats actually not really man engough for the job, as such it not only tries to solve a problem it couldn't possibly fix but also introduces another point of failure.
This is why the trusted TVR alarm specialists who understand the real reason for the fault will always remove the hot start kit when they come across it, and I recommend all TVR owners do the same.
ChimpOnGas said:
This is the point, the hot start kit does not bypass the immobiliser so if the relay contacts in the immobiliser are damaged/pitted which they almost certainly will be its not going to help.
Dead on ChimpMany people are easily mislead, if an immobiliser relays contacts have been toasted they aren't going to fix themselves, wiring in a relays coil to those contacts is only a temporary fix
The Modwise Hot-Start Kit should be packed in a tin that has temporary fix painted on it
"Does exactly what it says on the tin"
Penelope Stopit said:
ChimpOnGas said:
This is the point, the hot start kit does not bypass the immobiliser so if the relay contacts in the immobiliser are damaged/pitted which they almost certainly will be its not going to help.
Dead on ChimpMany people are easily mislead, if an immobiliser relays contacts have been toasted they aren't going to fix themselves, wiring in a relays coil to those contacts is only a temporary fix
The Modwise Hot-Start Kit should be packed in a tin that has temporary fix painted on it
"Does exactly what it says on the tin"
The creator of the kit was well meaning I'm sure, but he clearly failed to identify the true reasons our cars often fail to start and especially when hot. The truth is he inadvertently gave a whole generation of unwitting Chimaera & Griffith owners a false sense of confidence that their starting problems had been resolved while merely introducing another point of failure.
In many ways fitting the hot start kit is actually far worse than leaving things just as they are, because when the immobiliser fault TVR hard wired into every Chim/Griff comes to bite the unsuspecting owner he's left bewildered at the side of the road still convinced he'd previously solved the issue with the Modwise hot start kit
I've sent my imobiliser bypass instructions to literally hundreds of TVR owners who contact me by PM, often they tell me they just cant understand why they have the starting problem as they fitted the hot start kit a few years previously. Sometimes the owner is not confident themselves to complete the bypass so for many owners I've done it for them and nine times out of ten they have the hot start kit installed, I have loads of them in my hall of shame as I always remove the kit.
In all cases the car leaves me starting perfectly where before the owner couldn't trust the engine to start, often I will find other faults that need addressing so I should stress bypassing the immobiliser is not always the solution. But in every single case the hot start kit will be removed and in every single case the car leaves me properly fixed and starting on the button, and no one has ever reinstated their hot start kit because it is most certainly not the magic bullet solution it claims to be!
ChimpOnGas said:
By replacing your immobiliser you inadvertantly fixed the hot start issue, even if at the time you had no hot start issue your new immobiliser made sure it would never appear.
The new immobiliser was the fix not fitting the hot start kit, so you may as well rip it out as its just a worthless additional point of potential failure.
Heat increases resistance in anything electrical, the weak point in this respect on a Chimaera or Griffith is not the starter motor or its solenoid but the string thin starter cable and the pish poor earth return.
This brings us full circle to the origins of this post.
I didn't think I'd been unclear about my experience so here goes again. The whole alarm and immobliser in my Griff had been replaced by an expert prior to my purchase. It exhibited the hot start issue when I bought the car. On installing a hot start kit it was fixed and still is 10 years later!The new immobiliser was the fix not fitting the hot start kit, so you may as well rip it out as its just a worthless additional point of potential failure.
Heat increases resistance in anything electrical, the weak point in this respect on a Chimaera or Griffith is not the starter motor or its solenoid but the string thin starter cable and the pish poor earth return.
This brings us full circle to the origins of this post.
TVR are reputed to have incorrectly wired the immobiliser using the low current relay for the starter etc.
That is certainly not the case for all cars. My 1996 Griffith was wired correctly but I installed a relay in the starter immobiliser circuit as good practice. To say the "Hot start Kit" is superfluous is a nonsense as it is just effectively a relay to protect the immobiliser contacts. With correctly rated immobiliser contacts it is probably overkill but does give peace of mind.
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
My 22 year old car owned for 15 years has never ever had a starter problem on the original wiring.
An Engineer is someone who can make something work efficiently for 50p where any bloody fool can make it work for a £1!
That is certainly not the case for all cars. My 1996 Griffith was wired correctly but I installed a relay in the starter immobiliser circuit as good practice. To say the "Hot start Kit" is superfluous is a nonsense as it is just effectively a relay to protect the immobiliser contacts. With correctly rated immobiliser contacts it is probably overkill but does give peace of mind.
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
My 22 year old car owned for 15 years has never ever had a starter problem on the original wiring.
An Engineer is someone who can make something work efficiently for 50p where any bloody fool can make it work for a £1!
Loubaruch said:
TVR are reputed to have incorrectly wired the immobiliser using the low current relay for the starter etc.
That is certainly not the case for all cars. My 1996 Griffith was wired correctly but I installed a relay in the starter immobiliser circuit as good practice. To say the "Hot start Kit" is superfluous is a nonsense as it is just effectively a relay to protect the immobiliser contacts. With correctly rated immobiliser contacts it is probably overkill but does give peace of mind.
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
My 22 year old car owned for 15 years has never ever had a starter problem on the original wiring.
An Engineer is someone who can make something work efficiently for 50p where any bloody fool can make it work for a £1!
That is certainly not the case for all cars. My 1996 Griffith was wired correctly but I installed a relay in the starter immobiliser circuit as good practice. To say the "Hot start Kit" is superfluous is a nonsense as it is just effectively a relay to protect the immobiliser contacts. With correctly rated immobiliser contacts it is probably overkill but does give peace of mind.
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
My 22 year old car owned for 15 years has never ever had a starter problem on the original wiring.
An Engineer is someone who can make something work efficiently for 50p where any bloody fool can make it work for a £1!
Stock starter cabling is fine providing terminations are secure inc good grounds etc , lots of modded cars (high CR's etc) running the factory gauge cables no problems inc myself , yes upgrading gauge is beneficial but necessary? NO unless your changing knackered corroded/chaffed cable anyway, relay on the starter solenoid circuit is def a good call however The cable gauge used by TVR was marginal at best, especially for its considerable 7ft length, TVR then draped it over the bell housing trapping it behind the hot cylinder heads & exhaust manifolds where there's also little or no air flow to cool it.
During its life the cable gets heated up and cools down literally hundreds if not thousands of times, add all this to the fact it's now probably 20 plus years old & heavy internal corrosion will be the consequence which will significantly increase resistance.
Definitely worth replacing, not only to improve cranking but as the above clearly demonstrates.... to reduce risk of fire too!
On the subject of the immobiliser, TVR definitely wired it incorrectly for a number of years throughout the 1990's, this is well accepted fact, I have spoken to a number of respected TVR alarm specialist who have all confirmed this. Carl Baker who was (and probably still is) the go TVR alarm specialist having fitted literally hundreds of correctly wired Meta systems to TVRs explained to me Meta themselves knew about TVR's mistake in period.
Carl explained throughout the 1990's Meta knew about the mistake TVR was making, they sent many memos to TVR to try to correct the error of their ways but apparently these memos were all ignored. Carl Baker was Meta factory trained and has kept a close relationship with the company for many years, the mistake made by TVR is not a story it is fact and indeed born out by what I found myself. If people still remain unconvinced I recommend calling Carl himself or David from HF Solutions, alternatively have a read of the Abacus Alarms website that explains TVR's mistake in detail half way down this page:
https://www.abacuscaralarms.co.uk/tvr-alarms.html
Finally here's a snapshot from the Meta M36 installation manual that TVR clearly failed to read properly:
Relay number 2 is rated at 25a, as per their above instructions Meta intended this for the far higher amp starter motor solenoid circuit, relay number 1 on the other hand was far lower rated at 10a. TVR's decision to ignore Meta's clear instructions and subsequent memos meant they consistently wired the starter solenoid through this 10a relay throughout the 1990's and with inevitable consequences.
An engineer is someone who studies the system, understands how it was designed to work, identifies the fault and corrects it.....a fool is someone who refuses to accept the facts.
During its life the cable gets heated up and cools down literally hundreds if not thousands of times, add all this to the fact it's now probably 20 plus years old & heavy internal corrosion will be the consequence which will significantly increase resistance.
Definitely worth replacing, not only to improve cranking but as the above clearly demonstrates.... to reduce risk of fire too!
On the subject of the immobiliser, TVR definitely wired it incorrectly for a number of years throughout the 1990's, this is well accepted fact, I have spoken to a number of respected TVR alarm specialist who have all confirmed this. Carl Baker who was (and probably still is) the go TVR alarm specialist having fitted literally hundreds of correctly wired Meta systems to TVRs explained to me Meta themselves knew about TVR's mistake in period.
Carl explained throughout the 1990's Meta knew about the mistake TVR was making, they sent many memos to TVR to try to correct the error of their ways but apparently these memos were all ignored. Carl Baker was Meta factory trained and has kept a close relationship with the company for many years, the mistake made by TVR is not a story it is fact and indeed born out by what I found myself. If people still remain unconvinced I recommend calling Carl himself or David from HF Solutions, alternatively have a read of the Abacus Alarms website that explains TVR's mistake in detail half way down this page:
https://www.abacuscaralarms.co.uk/tvr-alarms.html
Finally here's a snapshot from the Meta M36 installation manual that TVR clearly failed to read properly:
Relay number 2 is rated at 25a, as per their above instructions Meta intended this for the far higher amp starter motor solenoid circuit, relay number 1 on the other hand was far lower rated at 10a. TVR's decision to ignore Meta's clear instructions and subsequent memos meant they consistently wired the starter solenoid through this 10a relay throughout the 1990's and with inevitable consequences.
An engineer is someone who studies the system, understands how it was designed to work, identifies the fault and corrects it.....a fool is someone who refuses to accept the facts.
Loubaruch said:
TVR are reputed to have incorrectly wired the immobiliser using the low current relay for the starter etc.
That is certainly not the case for all cars. My 1996 Griffith was wired correctly but I installed a relay in the starter immobiliser circuit as good practice. To say the "Hot start Kit" is superfluous is a nonsense as it is just effectively a relay to protect the immobiliser contacts. With correctly rated immobiliser contacts it is probably overkill but does give peace of mind.
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
My 22 year old car owned for 15 years has never ever had a starter problem on the original wiring.
An Engineer is someone who can make something work efficiently for 50p where any bloody fool can make it work for a £1!
TVR already gave us this mess...That is certainly not the case for all cars. My 1996 Griffith was wired correctly but I installed a relay in the starter immobiliser circuit as good practice. To say the "Hot start Kit" is superfluous is a nonsense as it is just effectively a relay to protect the immobiliser contacts. With correctly rated immobiliser contacts it is probably overkill but does give peace of mind.
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
My 22 year old car owned for 15 years has never ever had a starter problem on the original wiring.
An Engineer is someone who can make something work efficiently for 50p where any bloody fool can make it work for a £1!
Then people added this mess on top, which is sold for a lot more than £1.00 BTW
The hot start kit really is a completely unnecessary amateurish made collection of wires, crimp, and choc block connector with a tiny little difficult to source little relay thrown in for good measure.
AVOID!
Loubaruch said:
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
I have to agree. There a a couple of posters that see to think they know better than many TVR staff, TVR dealers and long-term TVR owners, especially concerning electrical issues. Best take their 'advice' with caution if you want to avoid unnecessary expense.Englishman said:
Loubaruch said:
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
I have to agree. There a a couple of posters that see to think they know better than many TVR staff, TVR dealers and long-term TVR owners, especially concerning electrical issues. Best take their 'advice' with caution if you want to avoid unnecessary expense.A motor circuit is as basic as it gets
There is nothing wrong with a starter motor working ok with the vehicles original cable
There is nothing to lose by uprating any long length of starter cable, but.....
During cranking from cold, as long as there is no more than a 0.25 volts drop on the earth side and no more than 0.75 volts drop on the live side all is good to go
Now think about the benefits of reducing the volt-drops, starter motors turn faster with more volts and last longer, sluggish starter motors soon overheat and burn out their armature and coils, often it is found that the armature commutator has thrown its solder due to overheating
Those above volt-drop figures can be bettered by uprating the cable....It's a fact
Englishman said:
Loubaruch said:
IMHO there is quite a lot of questionable advice given on here regarding TVR's electrical wiring. For example using grossly over rated cables for the battery and earth leads. With connections clean and efficient there is no need to install what are effectively Bus Bars for the starter circuit etc. Of course they will work but are they necessary? In my opinion NO.
I have to agree. There a a couple of posters that see to think they know better than many TVR staff, TVR dealers and long-term TVR owners, especially concerning electrical issues. Best take their 'advice' with caution if you want to avoid unnecessary expense.Also wiring the immobiliser circuits the wrong way round, wtf?
I see no harm in going slightly larger in cable sizes as it doesn't cost the earth. (See what I did there)
Just a few examples.
Edited by Belle427 on Thursday 11th April 07:38
Precisely chaps, as soon as people accept the fact that TVRs wiring was not the best they can move on to improving it.
The error TVR made when wiring the Meta immobiliser in the 90'S is well documented accepted fact, speak with any of the three TVR alarm gurus mentioned in my above post and they will confirm this, or just read what Abacus Alarms have to say on the subject on their website (see link above).
TVRs are fantastic unique cars, I have remained passionate about mine throughout the ten years I've owned it but I'm under no illusions it could have been built better and the poor wiring is a key case in point.
We all love our TVRs but denial and rose tinted specs get you nowhere.
The error TVR made when wiring the Meta immobiliser in the 90'S is well documented accepted fact, speak with any of the three TVR alarm gurus mentioned in my above post and they will confirm this, or just read what Abacus Alarms have to say on the subject on their website (see link above).
TVRs are fantastic unique cars, I have remained passionate about mine throughout the ten years I've owned it but I'm under no illusions it could have been built better and the poor wiring is a key case in point.
We all love our TVRs but denial and rose tinted specs get you nowhere.
Seems to me that the addition of the starter relay is a good move, but only if done early on .. if it's done as a crutch to fix an ailing system it's probably ill advised unless as said above it's a temporary fix to get you out of trouble short term.
If you are going to do the "mod" then do it early, before signs of hot start issues, and do it coupled with ensuring that your other high load wiring is in good condition (replace if in doubt) .. then adding the starter relay is a good thing.
But do it properly .. I buy in the correct 10 way connectors and terminals and make a proper new plug-in mini-loom with a fused high current relay .. some of the home-made affairs I've seen over the years make TVR's own wiring look amazing!
If you are going to do the "mod" then do it early, before signs of hot start issues, and do it coupled with ensuring that your other high load wiring is in good condition (replace if in doubt) .. then adding the starter relay is a good thing.
But do it properly .. I buy in the correct 10 way connectors and terminals and make a proper new plug-in mini-loom with a fused high current relay .. some of the home-made affairs I've seen over the years make TVR's own wiring look amazing!
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