Discussion
ChimpofDarkness said:
I was ditching the Lucas system anyway, if I was going for after market petrol ECU yet already thinking about an LPG conversion in the future, I figured it made sense to go with the Canems dual fuel ECU & loom in the first place.
I realise it's an expensive solution and the economics may not immediately stack up, but I wanted to cover all future bases in one hit.
Long term the finances of it should come right, although I cannot believe the gubberment have not spotted there is more to be had out of LPG and no doubt will at some point.I realise it's an expensive solution and the economics may not immediately stack up, but I wanted to cover all future bases in one hit.
On a more practical note, have you considered if it fits in with your car usage without being too restrictive? Not sure how far into this you are but any thoughts on tank options and size/splits?
SILICONEKID340HP said:
Its even cheaper if you willing to use Calor,meaning you have to remove large cansiters ,but it will reduce the price to 30p a litre but i don`t know if it`s legal ..
You never disappoint, not much point in discussing the technical merits of anything with you.You are probably reading this from the comfort of your home/caravan looking at your white Transit outside
ChimpofDarkness said:
spitfire4v8 said:
How many miles do you have to drive to recoup your ecu and lpg install investment? I guess they're fun miles though 
For the average ecu upgrader looking for dyno remapping the emerald wins hands down for local choice of mapper.. I don't know anyone who maps canems so that's a bit of a downer unless you live near Lloyd's. Every mapper and his dog has seen an emerald at some point. I map 2 or 3 emeralds a month , probably one MS system every 2 months or so though funnily enough all ms systems i've seen have been on kit cars like sylvas and westfields etc. I've never even seen a canems in all the time i've been mapping.
Are you saying you wouldn't map a Canems?For the average ecu upgrader looking for dyno remapping the emerald wins hands down for local choice of mapper.. I don't know anyone who maps canems so that's a bit of a downer unless you live near Lloyd's. Every mapper and his dog has seen an emerald at some point. I map 2 or 3 emeralds a month , probably one MS system every 2 months or so though funnily enough all ms systems i've seen have been on kit cars like sylvas and westfields etc. I've never even seen a canems in all the time i've been mapping.
I've seen the Canems software and it looks pretty straightforward to me, then again I'm just a layman so what do I know.
However, knowing your skills and reputation I'm confident you could adjust to it but that's not for me to say is it.
Am I missing something?
It's a shame if you wouldn't look at a Canems, you are a long way from me but your reputation goes before you so I had assumed if I needed your services you might be open to mapping it.
The gas bag project is a work in progress and has no grounding in economics, I just like the way LPG burns and the saving is an added bonus.
A fast grand touring sports car that delivers family hatchback economy just tickles my fancy some how.
Not all decisions are based on pure economics.
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Wednesday 18th July 23:19
As has been said it is very much down to how you will use the car if LPG will suit your usage.
As for Single point systems being crude I have to disagree the two units I have had experiences with lost around 2-3MPG next to petrol so pretty good, Obviously not as efficient as sequential systems.
We also had a Factory fit LPG car a vectra and it was hopelessly greedy for a LPG car, soon sold on.
It is easy to map the LPG ecu, I had to run a second Lambda for my dads Volvo due to the Volvo's lambdasond System using a 8V lambda, So way out the range for the ecu (Max 5v IIRC ) But not a big deal. The car has a gas lambda and a the standard Petrol Lambda. I had to drill and weld a nut on to the manifold But it seems to be running great now. He is getting 200 miles for 38L of gas out of a 2.5L 5 cylinder.
As for Single point systems being crude I have to disagree the two units I have had experiences with lost around 2-3MPG next to petrol so pretty good, Obviously not as efficient as sequential systems.
We also had a Factory fit LPG car a vectra and it was hopelessly greedy for a LPG car, soon sold on.
It is easy to map the LPG ecu, I had to run a second Lambda for my dads Volvo due to the Volvo's lambdasond System using a 8V lambda, So way out the range for the ecu (Max 5v IIRC ) But not a big deal. The car has a gas lambda and a the standard Petrol Lambda. I had to drill and weld a nut on to the manifold But it seems to be running great now. He is getting 200 miles for 38L of gas out of a 2.5L 5 cylinder.
This has gone a wee bit off topic..! Looking at the OPs profile, he is building a blown Chim for the track, and as such LPG is I'm sure last on his priorities list. The Emerald loom may be expensive if you get Paul Dove to build it, but it is easy to build yourself in a day. Emerald sell for I think £60 an ECU connector with correct gauge wiring pre attached to each pin, along with a sheet telling you the function of each wire against its colour. The loom assembly is 6 foot long, so you simpley run this through the bulkhead, make your cable runs and then cut to length. Pull it back out and wrap in your favourite loom tape and then put it back in. Finally you crimp on some pins, and insert into a new set of connectors (or solder to the old ones if you're on a budget). There arent that many connections so it's well within the capability of most PHers.
If running a blower, you can also add your own sensors and run the wiring in perhaps a different route tot standard to suit your installation. Maybe for drive in drive out I'd use CANEMS, but for a track car if use Emerald. Your proximity to Emerald also makes it a no-brainer I suspect. If its a track car of also make sure you go for Nitron suspension as a minimum with stiff springs and some nice big brakes. :-)
If running a blower, you can also add your own sensors and run the wiring in perhaps a different route tot standard to suit your installation. Maybe for drive in drive out I'd use CANEMS, but for a track car if use Emerald. Your proximity to Emerald also makes it a no-brainer I suspect. If its a track car of also make sure you go for Nitron suspension as a minimum with stiff springs and some nice big brakes. :-)
Edited by 450Nick on Thursday 19th July 09:46
spitfire4v8 said:
No I'm not saying I wouldn't .. I'm saying they're so rare on cars that neither I nor anyone I know has seen one, let alone mapped one. Sounds like it's just the ticket for your LPG conversion, but for everyone else there's established market ECUs available with a mapper within a few miles.
That's good to know, and thanks for the clarification 
The truth is I was very close to going Emerald for all the reasons you mentioned.
It's just the Canems opened one more door.
On the question of LPG economics I started by separating out my move to an after market petrol ECU (which was happening anyway) with the additional cost of the dual fuel ECU upgrade and the other LPG components required.
The additional total costs for moving to LPG actually stacked up nicely in the favour of Canems when compared with bolting a Heath Robinson LPG piggy back onto something like an Emerald at a later date.
So I paid a bit more upfront to get what I consider is a better more integrated system to run both fuels.
As it stands with the mileage I do, the additional outlay for the LPG package will pay for itself over three years so considering the car is a keeper it's not as bad as you may think.
On the subject of tanks I feel I may have a neat solution that suits me.
At the early stages of looking at tanks I quickly decided the approach was to forget the roof storage issues, there are solutions to this that I'll come to later.
With the roof issue at the back of my mind I was able to think freely about the very best tank options.
Like all these things it helps to start with a brief, mine loosely looked like this:
1) RANGE: 300 Miles
2) LUGGAGE SPACE: Sufficient for two people to undertake a two week European touring holiday using hotels (no camping equipment)
3) PETROL TANK: Just like Ribol suggested I wantto retain the petrol tank capacity
4) GOING TOPLESS: With the gas, petrol tank & two weeks of luggage on board I still wanted to be able to take the roof of & store it in the car
5) AESTHETICS: I want the installation to look as factory as possible, I also wanted to hide the LPG filler
Even with the capacious Chimaera boot I think you will agree it's a challenging brief.
A Chimaera boot is deep & wide but quite narrow, ideally you need to use as much of the boot floor footprint as you can, loosing a bit of the cavernous depth is less of an issue.
The solution (I believe) involves a twin 35 litre tank arrangement like the ones used in Range Rover sill mounted kits.
Each tank has a diameter of 244mm and is 820mm long making full use of the wide Chimaera boot, the two tanks mounted together should create a rectangular volume that can be accommodated within the boot floor footprint.
It's early days so I need to double check these measurements when I get the car back next week but at the very worst I may need to lift the petrol tank and shorten it's filler neck, as we know a Chimaera petrol tank sits about 250mm lower that the boot aperture lip.
Lifting the tank will allow the radius of tank 1 to be pushed closer to the rear bulkhead.
With the two tanks in place an LPG filler will be constructed behind the number plate that will be hinged at the top and held in place by a simple magnetic catch at the bottom, thus making the filler totally invisible.
A false boot floor will be constructed in marine ply and finished in the standard grey boot carpet completely concealing the tanks and giving a factory look to the raised boot floor.
The net result should be to retain the 12.5 gallon petrol tank, hold 60 litres of usable LPG for an LPG touring range that matches or even exceeds the 300 mile brief.
The compromise of this arrangement being the loss of a shade over 250mm of boot depth, so I feel confident the remaining space will accommodate two medium sized holdalls with additional space available on the rear parcel shelf for a third bag.
But what to do with the roof panel?
Well I have been thinking about splitting the roof as many Griff owners have done in the past.
Last night I was at the Ace Cafe and there was a chap there with a split roof on his Griff.
Next to him was his mate in a Chimaera, so I explained my LPG project and we were able to test out a little theory I've had for ages.
The theory being one or both halves of a split roof can be fixed and carried under the boot lid itself, this would make access the roof immediate even if the boot is full of luggage.
We offered up one half first and it fitted like a glove, we then made a sandwich of the two panels and tried them too.
I was delighted to see both panels sat extremely well under a Chimaera boot lid, which is conveniently concave in shape.
So there we are, that's my plan for the LPG installation.
1) Canems dual fuel ECU
2) A tailor made dual fuel loom to suit
3) Twin Range Rover LPG sill type cylinders laid side by side to cover the boot floor area (perhaps a tank lift)
4) Decent modern front end components from Prins & Kiehin
5) A hidden filler behind the number plate
6) 300 mile touring range
7) Sufficient luggage space for two people to undertake a two week European touring holiday
8) The flexibility of retaining the original petrol tank
The Prins VSI vaporiser I have earmarked will easily accommodate 300hp as will the correct rated Kiehin injectors with the right sized pipework to keep the LPG flowing sufficiently to accommodate the demands of my engine.
My only worry is will the twin tanks deliver sufficient pressure?
The twin 35 litre Range Rover sill tanks I have seen look like the single hole type, & I expect I would be much better off with four hole tanks?
Thoughts?
Sounds good to me Dave but not sure about your comment on pressure.
As the gas runs towards empty, no doubt pressure drops, I haven't really noticed a differance in performance.
The system automatically switches to petrol as it reaches empty or you can switch over by a press of a button.
As the gas runs towards empty, no doubt pressure drops, I haven't really noticed a differance in performance.
The system automatically switches to petrol as it reaches empty or you can switch over by a press of a button.
To be honest I just need to get the car back from LSD & start enjoying the Canems on petrol for a few months.
There will be big benefits over the 14CUX & distributor when just running petrol anyway, so the LPG can follow at a later date.
But at least I'll be prepared & ready for it when it comes, hopefully people can see there's been quite a bit of thought on my gas bag project already.
I'm open to hear the thoughts & criticisms from others on my design ideas, as I don't have access to my car right now perhaps someone can run a tape measure over their Chim boot to test out my twin tank idea?
Surprisingly no body has challenged me on the weight increase yet
Even carrying just 4 gallons of start up petrol it's something not to be ignored with two full 35litre LPG tanks in place
There will be big benefits over the 14CUX & distributor when just running petrol anyway, so the LPG can follow at a later date.
But at least I'll be prepared & ready for it when it comes, hopefully people can see there's been quite a bit of thought on my gas bag project already.
I'm open to hear the thoughts & criticisms from others on my design ideas, as I don't have access to my car right now perhaps someone can run a tape measure over their Chim boot to test out my twin tank idea?
Surprisingly no body has challenged me on the weight increase yet
Even carrying just 4 gallons of start up petrol it's something not to be ignored with two full 35litre LPG tanks in place
ChimpofDarkness said:
AESTHETICS: I want the installation to look as factory as possible, I also wanted to hide the LPG filler
That one I would have resolved by creating a platform to mirror the one for the petrol fuel filler on the opposite corner, easily done and still vented on the outside of the weather seal as required.The rest of the plan sounds good if you are happy with having two LPG tanks next to the petrol tank with very little room between them if you had a rear shunt. I know having an eye on safety is frowned upon in TVR land but still worth considering IMO.
Just want to clarify this a little, what makes you think the ECU you chose is the only one that can run LPG?
I have absolutely no doubt that Emerald can run LPG and I have been building MegaSquirt ECUs to run both LPG and Petrol for 8 or 9 years now, we can even run other fuels such as E80, etc.
Its nothing special to Canems, in the MS3 ECU you have total flexability as the injector characteristics, required fuel, etc, etc, can all be switched,
thanks
Phil
I have absolutely no doubt that Emerald can run LPG and I have been building MegaSquirt ECUs to run both LPG and Petrol for 8 or 9 years now, we can even run other fuels such as E80, etc.
Its nothing special to Canems, in the MS3 ECU you have total flexability as the injector characteristics, required fuel, etc, etc, can all be switched,
thanks
Phil
daxtojeiro said:
Just want to clarify this a little, what makes you think the ECU you chose is the only one that can run LPG?
I have absolutely no doubt that Emerald can run LPG and I have been building MegaSquirt ECUs to run both LPG and Petrol for 8 or 9 years now, we can even run other fuels such as E80, etc.
Its nothing special to Canems, in the MS3 ECU you have total flexability as the injector characteristics, required fuel, etc, etc, can all be switched,
thanks
Phil
I have absolutely no doubt that Emerald can run LPG and I have been building MegaSquirt ECUs to run both LPG and Petrol for 8 or 9 years now, we can even run other fuels such as E80, etc.
Its nothing special to Canems, in the MS3 ECU you have total flexability as the injector characteristics, required fuel, etc, etc, can all be switched,
thanks
Phil
Actually I did clearly state above that the MegaSquirt could do it.What I got with the Canems was a package that is specifically designed for LPG by the same guys who are fitting it.
It's a one stop shop with just one company to go back to if I'm not happy with anything, & that's very important to me.
No one is disrespecting the MegaSquirt here, especially not me.
As I've said all along it's horses for causes, every one will have their own priorities and they will almost certainly be different in every case.
Personal choice is a wonderful thing, it doesn't mean the rejected options are being criticised.
stumpage said:
Pleasure to be of assistance. Remember Earl's words of wisdom. Couple of pints of Stella...then chop the roof. It's the only way to overcome the fear of the first cut!!
Nice one Stumpage you are a legend mate, seeing Earl's roof under your boot lid just confirmed I need to get busy with a saw.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBccr-aLu4I
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Thursday 19th July 15:11
Ribol said:
That one I would have resolved by creating a platform to mirror the one for the petrol fuel filler on the opposite corner, easily done and still vented on the outside of the weather seal as required.
Interesting 
Apologies to the OP for my gas bag hijack.
I appreciate LPG is not everyone's thing, but it certainly seems to have stirred up some interest.
Edited by ChimpofDarkness on Thursday 19th July 14:13
Ribol said:
SILICONEKID340HP said:
Its even cheaper if you willing to use Calor,meaning you have to remove large cansiters ,but it will reduce the price to 30p a litre but i don`t know if it`s legal ..
You never disappoint, not much point in discussing the technical merits of anything with you.You are probably reading this from the comfort of your home/caravan looking at your white Transit outside
Same gas !Strap it in to a cradle and just replace with the spare when empty..
ChimpofDarkness said:
Actually I did clearly state above that the MegaSquirt could do it.What I got with the Canems was a package that is specifically designed for LPG by the same guys who are fitting it.
It's a one stop shop with just one company to go back to if I'm not happy with anything, & that's very important to me.
No one is disrespecting the MegaSquirt here, especially not me.
As I've said all along it's horses for causes, every one will have their own priorities and they will almost certainly be different in every case.
Personal choice is a wonderful thing, it doesn't mean the rejected options are being criticised.
thanks
Phil
p.s. Out of interest, I was told by an RV8 specialist that LPG isnt good on the RV8, I can't recall why now, something about split liners maybe, I think its worth looking into it a bit before you comit, maybe ring V8D or John Eales. Thats just what Ive heard, not saying its true, but worth calling one of the long standing RV8 specialists first.
Ribol said:
SILICONEKID340HP said:
Its even cheaper if you willing to use Calor,meaning you have to remove large cansiters ,but it will reduce the price to 30p a litre but i don`t know if it`s legal ..
You never disappoint, not much point in discussing the technical merits of anything with you.You are probably reading this from the comfort of your home/caravan looking at your white Transit outside
could even use the car as my daily driver..Edited by SILICONEKID340HP on Thursday 19th July 21:37
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