T5 gearbox oil
Discussion
I know there have been several posts in the past on this subject, but all non conclusive.
Now my box has been refurbished by 'the man himself' but installed by another who put in Syntrax oil not the recommended ATF. The reason given was 'to offer better protection to the 5th gear bearing'.
In the recent cold weather and when the car is cold, it has been difficult to do a clean change between 1st and second without a graunch and a couple of times it hasn't gone into 3rd gear. All is okay when box has warmed up, but local journeys are a pain.
Would the thinner ATF help with this ?
Also I came across a Tremec T5 manual on line which states :_
2-4. APPROVED LUBRICANT. Most T5
transmission models use DexronÒ II automatic
transmission fluid. Refer the vehicle owner’s manual
or service manual for lubricant specifications.
CAUTION
Do not mix different bands or types of transmission
lubricant. DO NOT USE GEAR OIL IN THE T5
TRANSMISSION SINCE THIS MAY DAMAGE THE
BLOCKING RING MATERIAL.
Reading elsewhere, I believe TVRs were fitted with the 'World class' box which has composite syncro rings , which may explain the above caution.
Any comments anyone please, as I have conflicting info from 2 respected professionals and don't have enough information to decide which to go with.
Now my box has been refurbished by 'the man himself' but installed by another who put in Syntrax oil not the recommended ATF. The reason given was 'to offer better protection to the 5th gear bearing'.
In the recent cold weather and when the car is cold, it has been difficult to do a clean change between 1st and second without a graunch and a couple of times it hasn't gone into 3rd gear. All is okay when box has warmed up, but local journeys are a pain.
Would the thinner ATF help with this ?
Also I came across a Tremec T5 manual on line which states :_
2-4. APPROVED LUBRICANT. Most T5
transmission models use DexronÒ II automatic
transmission fluid. Refer the vehicle owner’s manual
or service manual for lubricant specifications.
CAUTION
Do not mix different bands or types of transmission
lubricant. DO NOT USE GEAR OIL IN THE T5
TRANSMISSION SINCE THIS MAY DAMAGE THE
BLOCKING RING MATERIAL.
Reading elsewhere, I believe TVRs were fitted with the 'World class' box which has composite syncro rings , which may explain the above caution.
Any comments anyone please, as I have conflicting info from 2 respected professionals and don't have enough information to decide which to go with.
Edited by WokingWedger on Tuesday 13th January 15:19
If it helps any,
http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-guides/tuning-gu...
Maybe worth phoning them for a chat and advice.
Just my opinion but i would stick with using ATF.
Explain to Burton what oil is in there now, they may say just change it or maybe flush it with something beforehand.
http://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-guides/tuning-gu...
Maybe worth phoning them for a chat and advice.
Just my opinion but i would stick with using ATF.
Explain to Burton what oil is in there now, they may say just change it or maybe flush it with something beforehand.
WokingWedger said:
I know there have been several posts in the past on this subject, but all non conclusive.
Now my box has been refurbished by 'the man himself' but installed by another who put in Syntrax oil not the recommended ATF. The reason given was 'to offer better protection to the 5th gear bearing'.
In the recent cold weather and when the car is cold, it has been difficult to do a clean change between 1st and second without a graunch and a couple of times it hasn't gone into 3rd gear. All is okay when box has warmed up, but local journeys are a pain.
Would the thinner ATF help with this ?
Also I came across a Tremec T5 manual on line which states :_
2-4. APPROVED LUBRICANT. Most T5
transmission models use DexronÒ II automatic
transmission fluid. Refer the vehicle owner’s manual
or service manual for lubricant specifications.
CAUTION
Do not mix different bands or types of transmission
lubricant. DO NOT USE GEAR OIL IN THE T5
TRANSMISSION SINCE THIS MAY DAMAGE THE
BLOCKING RING MATERIAL.
Reading elsewhere, I believe TVRs were fitted with the 'World class' box which has composite syncro rings , which may explain the above caution.
Any comments anyone please, as I have conflicting info from 2 respected professionals and don't have enough information to decide which to go with.
The above extract from the manual is correct. The WC T5 uses ATF because of the synthetic blocking ring material, whereas many gearboxes have brass blocking (baulk, or synchro) rings and they use gearbox oil. Now my box has been refurbished by 'the man himself' but installed by another who put in Syntrax oil not the recommended ATF. The reason given was 'to offer better protection to the 5th gear bearing'.
In the recent cold weather and when the car is cold, it has been difficult to do a clean change between 1st and second without a graunch and a couple of times it hasn't gone into 3rd gear. All is okay when box has warmed up, but local journeys are a pain.
Would the thinner ATF help with this ?
Also I came across a Tremec T5 manual on line which states :_
2-4. APPROVED LUBRICANT. Most T5
transmission models use DexronÒ II automatic
transmission fluid. Refer the vehicle owner’s manual
or service manual for lubricant specifications.
CAUTION
Do not mix different bands or types of transmission
lubricant. DO NOT USE GEAR OIL IN THE T5
TRANSMISSION SINCE THIS MAY DAMAGE THE
BLOCKING RING MATERIAL.
Reading elsewhere, I believe TVRs were fitted with the 'World class' box which has composite syncro rings , which may explain the above caution.
Any comments anyone please, as I have conflicting info from 2 respected professionals and don't have enough information to decide which to go with.
Edited by WokingWedger on Tuesday 13th January 15:19
Note that Dextron is not a make of oil but a standard (GM if I'm correct), so any ATF that has Dextron II or III on the label is suitable, eg Castrol Transmax ATF.
Personally I would go by the Tremec manual (and also the TVR manual) and get ATF in there ASAP.
I've been in the ATF camp for years, there are three very good reasons why ATF works well in our T5 boxes.
1. Its free from corrosive sulphur
2. Its light enough to lubricate the needle roller bearings in the World Class T5
3. Its proven safe with the paper lined synchros we have in our World Class T5 boxes
The T5 is proven to last well on regular ATF and let's not forget the box was designed for that oil in the first place so why deviate?
Well its easy to forget the new breed of synthetic manual transmission fluids simply didn't exist back in the 1980's when BW designed the T5, at the time ATF was the best there was and to be fair its still a remarkably good oil.
But it is thin and this isn't always ideal for synchro function because synchro rings are essentially a wet clutch system, so definitely stick to regular ATF and avoid fully synthetic ATF as its just too slippery.
Unlike traditional hypoid gear oils the new synthetic manual transmission fluids do not contain sulphur which is known to attack brass synchro rings (5th in our boxes). Its also thin enough to lubricate needle rollers but being slightly heavier than ATF in theory should give improved synchro function.
On my T5 it was always possible to beat the 5th gear synchro if I rushed the shift under full power. I'm aware 5th is a weak point on this box and I know I shouldn't be abusing the box in this way but hey its a TVR so to nurse it is completely missing the point.
So against my own historic promotion of ATF only in this box I decided to try one of the new breed of quality 75w/85 synthetic oils specifically designed for manual transmissions, but I do accept there is a risk the paper syncho linings on the 2nd, 3rd & 4th could de-laminate.
Essentially the long term effects synthetic manual trans fluids have on the adhesive used to bond the paper to the sycro ring is inconclusive, some say its fine but some say over time you will suffer de-lamintion.
Here's what I went with:
I've been running this oil for over a year now and just as I'd hoped it completely removed the ability to beat the 5th gear synchro when shifting under hard acceleration, no more graunch
What I wasn't expecting was the overall improvement in shift quality in all gears which was really very noticeable indeed.
Over a year later and the box is smoother and quieter than ever so the experiment has worked a treat (so far) and even gave additional benefits I'd not expected.
I've only covered roughly 7,000 miles on the Penrite SIN manual trans but so far there are no signs of any issues, only benefits.
Obviosly ATF is proven beyond question so if you're happy with the way your T5 shifts then there's really no reason to switch to a synthetic manual trans fluid.
But after making the change & witnessing the improvements myself I'll not be going back to ATF in a hurry
Unless that is the paper linings bonded to the synchros start to de-laminate, at which point I'll be living in a world of regret
So far so good though
The paper lined syncho rings aren't available anymore so anyone rebuilding a World Class T5 these days will be using the newer carbon fiber synchros that can not de-laminate like the paper lined ones we have, so a fully synthetic manual transmission fluid becomes a no-brainer.
The real question is "will the Penrite SIN manual trans fluid attack the adhesive BW used to bond the friction paper to the synchros over an extended period?".
I appreciate I'm taking a risk but I would have thought if it was going to happen it would have done so by now?
If there's anyone out there who's done big miles over many years with synthetic manual transmission fluid in their World Class T5 (with the paper lined synchros) I'd be interested to hear from them.
Until then let me take the risk & do the experiment on my box, for everyone else I'd still recommend a standard (non-synthetic) ATF.
I'll update this post if I ever do experience the de-lamination problem.
1. Its free from corrosive sulphur
2. Its light enough to lubricate the needle roller bearings in the World Class T5
3. Its proven safe with the paper lined synchros we have in our World Class T5 boxes
The T5 is proven to last well on regular ATF and let's not forget the box was designed for that oil in the first place so why deviate?
Well its easy to forget the new breed of synthetic manual transmission fluids simply didn't exist back in the 1980's when BW designed the T5, at the time ATF was the best there was and to be fair its still a remarkably good oil.
But it is thin and this isn't always ideal for synchro function because synchro rings are essentially a wet clutch system, so definitely stick to regular ATF and avoid fully synthetic ATF as its just too slippery.
Unlike traditional hypoid gear oils the new synthetic manual transmission fluids do not contain sulphur which is known to attack brass synchro rings (5th in our boxes). Its also thin enough to lubricate needle rollers but being slightly heavier than ATF in theory should give improved synchro function.
On my T5 it was always possible to beat the 5th gear synchro if I rushed the shift under full power. I'm aware 5th is a weak point on this box and I know I shouldn't be abusing the box in this way but hey its a TVR so to nurse it is completely missing the point.
So against my own historic promotion of ATF only in this box I decided to try one of the new breed of quality 75w/85 synthetic oils specifically designed for manual transmissions, but I do accept there is a risk the paper syncho linings on the 2nd, 3rd & 4th could de-laminate.
Essentially the long term effects synthetic manual trans fluids have on the adhesive used to bond the paper to the sycro ring is inconclusive, some say its fine but some say over time you will suffer de-lamintion.
Here's what I went with:
I've been running this oil for over a year now and just as I'd hoped it completely removed the ability to beat the 5th gear synchro when shifting under hard acceleration, no more graunch
What I wasn't expecting was the overall improvement in shift quality in all gears which was really very noticeable indeed.
Over a year later and the box is smoother and quieter than ever so the experiment has worked a treat (so far) and even gave additional benefits I'd not expected.
I've only covered roughly 7,000 miles on the Penrite SIN manual trans but so far there are no signs of any issues, only benefits.
Obviosly ATF is proven beyond question so if you're happy with the way your T5 shifts then there's really no reason to switch to a synthetic manual trans fluid.
But after making the change & witnessing the improvements myself I'll not be going back to ATF in a hurry
Unless that is the paper linings bonded to the synchros start to de-laminate, at which point I'll be living in a world of regret
So far so good though
The paper lined syncho rings aren't available anymore so anyone rebuilding a World Class T5 these days will be using the newer carbon fiber synchros that can not de-laminate like the paper lined ones we have, so a fully synthetic manual transmission fluid becomes a no-brainer.
The real question is "will the Penrite SIN manual trans fluid attack the adhesive BW used to bond the friction paper to the synchros over an extended period?".
I appreciate I'm taking a risk but I would have thought if it was going to happen it would have done so by now?
If there's anyone out there who's done big miles over many years with synthetic manual transmission fluid in their World Class T5 (with the paper lined synchros) I'd be interested to hear from them.
Until then let me take the risk & do the experiment on my box, for everyone else I'd still recommend a standard (non-synthetic) ATF.
I'll update this post if I ever do experience the de-lamination problem.
Ok thanks all.
I have spoken with the gearbox builder and he says I should get the Syntrax out as it may stop things bedding in. (having just been refurbished).
I need a mineral ATF (got to be careful as some ATFs are semi synthetic)
Castrol Transmax ATF I believe is fully synthetic !
(He did mention possibly using Royal Purple if I want, when fully run in.)
I have spoken with the gearbox builder and he says I should get the Syntrax out as it may stop things bedding in. (having just been refurbished).
I need a mineral ATF (got to be careful as some ATFs are semi synthetic)
Castrol Transmax ATF I believe is fully synthetic !
(He did mention possibly using Royal Purple if I want, when fully run in.)
Edited by WokingWedger on Wednesday 14th January 11:40
Ah
From Castrol Website
CASTROL TRANSMAX Z
Fully synthetic automatic transmission fluid.
CASTROL TRANSMAX DEX III MULTIVEHICLE (previously known as ATF TQ DIII)
General purpose mineral based automatic transmission and power steering fluid.
Can be used in place of ATF Dex II Multivehicle.
Guess I will go for this then.
From Castrol Website
CASTROL TRANSMAX Z
Fully synthetic automatic transmission fluid.
CASTROL TRANSMAX DEX III MULTIVEHICLE (previously known as ATF TQ DIII)
General purpose mineral based automatic transmission and power steering fluid.
Can be used in place of ATF Dex II Multivehicle.
Guess I will go for this then.
WokingWedger said:
Ordered.
Don't now anyone tell me I am wrong !
Fingers in ears....lalalala
You pays yer money..........I use Evolution 1 here: http://www.difflock.com/evolution1.Don't now anyone tell me I am wrong !
Fingers in ears....lalalala
Used it in the LT77 (Chim) & then when the Tam & T5 came along, the oil was used in place of Dextron II
Each their own and I have no negatives other than cost 8-((
T
sarbec said:
Royal Purple synchromax
While Royal Purple recommended Synchromax for manual transmissions that ordinarily specify an automatic transmission fluid, they dont specifically say it will not attack the adhesive used to bond the friction paper to the T5 World Class synchro rings. And I must warn you there are some unsubstantiated reports out there that say id does just that.All Royal Purple are really saying is their Synchromax is the right grade for manual boxes that normally run on ATF.
To be fair Royal Purple or anyone else selling a synthetic manual transmission fluid are unlikely to mention the potential compatibility issue with friction paper lined synchro rings because this technology is rather out of date now, indeed friction paper lined synchro rings only really existed in a few manual boxes during the 1990's.
After the 90's pretty much everyone had moved from this friction paper lined technology to synchro rings with carbon fiber pads, essentially the friction paper idea was a relatively short lived thing when sintered bronze was being phased out, and just before the much better carbon fiber materials were developed.
You can't even get hold of the friction paper synchro rings for the T5 anymore, and why would anyone make them anyway when the new breed of carbon fiber rings are so much better and more or less used universally these days in every traditional manual transmission made?
If you went out to buy a T5 rebuild kit tomorrow you'd get carbon rings, if you have your box professionally build they'll use carbon rings, at which point you can happily jump straight to the new synthetic manual trans fluids with no fear of issue whatsoever, indeed it becomes the perfect oil.
The only people with a T5 that should be a bit cautious of synthetic manual trans fluids are those of us that still have their original World Class friction paper synchro rings, while there's actually no conclusive evidence these synthetic manual trans fluids attack the adhesive bonding the friction paper to the ring, apparently there are some cases of it happening, but also many cases of people running synthetic manual trans fluids for tens of thousands of miles with no de-lamination issues whatsoever.
I strongly suspect the stories of friction paper de-lamination come from when people put traditional hypoid gear oil (or dodgy miracle snake oil additives) in their World Class T5, traditional hypoid gear oils are super corrosive so stay well clear of these in your T5 as they'll de-laminate your paper lined synchros in 1500 miles or less and eat away your bronze 5th synchro after that.
Fully synthetic manual trans fluids are very different to traditional stinky sulfur rich hypoid oils, essentially the whole de-lamination thing with fully synthetic manual trans fluids is a bit of an unknown. However its also fair to point out the only conclusive thing you can say is "if you want absolute zero risk the only oil that guarantees zero de-lamination is good old ATF". And that's because the same bonded friction paper is used in auto boxes.
Back to fully synthetic manual trans fluids, the truth is there's no meaningful difference between Royal Purple Synchromax, Penrite SIN, Castrol Syntrans, Ford XT-M5-QS, Redline MTL ect ect.
They are all a fully synthetic oil in one of the following grades 75w/80, 75w/85 or 75w/90, realistically none of these three grades are different enough to make any difference in operation and may indeed end up being exactly the same if their viscosity were all measured on the same day using the same equipment.
Manual transmission fluids are to all intents and purposes just a high quality fully synthetic base that start life just like a high quality fully synthetic engine oil, it just gets the addition of certain friction modifiers and other additives that suit syncro engagement where the brew that goes in your engine gets detergents and carbon suspension additives more suited to combustion.
What you pay for when you buy Royal Purple is all their fancy marketing, oh and some purple dye
Redline MT-85, Penrite SIN, Castrol Syntrans, Ford XT-M5-QS, Redline MTL ect ect are all the equal of Royal Purple, they are all quality fully synthetic API Service Class GL-4 gear oils in more or less the same grade that all have friction modifiers.
In fact what you should know is a manual trans fluid of 75w/85 is exactly the same grade as a 5w30 grade engine oil, that's because confusingly there are two SAE viscosity charts, one for transmission oil and another for engine oil.
The only difference between a quality fully synthetic 5w30 or 10w30 engine oil and a 75w/85 manual trans fluid is some minor tweaks to the additive package.
Indeed many manufactures specify a quality fully synthetic 5w30 engine oil for their manual transmissions, when buying a manual trans fluid I certainly wouldn't pay the extra for the purple stuff. Redline MT-85, Penrite SIN, Castrol Syntrans, Ford XT-M5-QS & Redline MTL are all good products as indeed is the very overpriced Royal Purple Synchromax.
It's just you can buy 2.5 litres of Penrite SIN manual trans for £25.00
http://www.classic-oils.net/Product-408/Products-b...
Read about it here:
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/0SIN%20Manua...
Penrite SIN manual trans works brilliantly in the T5, lets just hope it doesn't de-laminate my paper lined synchros over time
WokingWedger said:
Ah
From Castrol Website
CASTROL TRANSMAX Z
Fully synthetic automatic transmission fluid.
CASTROL TRANSMAX DEX III MULTIVEHICLE (previously known as ATF TQ DIII)
General purpose mineral based automatic transmission and power steering fluid.
Can be used in place of ATF Dex II Multivehicle.
Guess I will go for this then.
I have used that in mine for the last 3 years and it seems fine. From Castrol Website
CASTROL TRANSMAX Z
Fully synthetic automatic transmission fluid.
CASTROL TRANSMAX DEX III MULTIVEHICLE (previously known as ATF TQ DIII)
General purpose mineral based automatic transmission and power steering fluid.
Can be used in place of ATF Dex II Multivehicle.
Guess I will go for this then.
QBee said:
Dave, is there a date when they stopped wallpapering T5 synchro rings, or are they all like that, sir?
Ha ha, no is the answer.All original Borg Warner World Class T5 boxes got the friction paper lined synchros from day one to end of production, so if you've got a TVR with a T5 (from Chimaera to Sagaris) you've also got friction paper lined synchros unless the box has been rebuilt.
They were just one of the many uprated parts that went into the box to make it what BW called the World Class. The Non World Class was old school bronze synchros all the way.
Tremec bought the T5 design from BW after TVR went under and still make the box today, I bet you any money Tremec use carbon synchros not paper lined ones.
It's advertising from JHM really but it's the best I could find to show you the evolution of synchro rings....
Sorry I cant find any specific images of the old paper lined T5 synchros, probably because they aren't available anymore, but here's the carbon ones you get if you buy a T5 rebuild kit these days:
Don't stress too much about your synthetic manual trans fluid de-laminating your paper lined synchros, I wouldn't really be risking it myself if I thought there was a big risk.
I cant absolutely guarantee it wont happen, but the big improvement in shift quality and 5th gear engagement the Prenrite SIN gave me is worth the tiny risk to me.
You pays your money and all that and I'm happy with the odds, however it goes without saying the not so brave amongst us should stick to good old ATF which we know for a fact is the zero risk option.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Wednesday 14th January 18:37
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