Hot start problem

Hot start problem

Author
Discussion

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

160 months

Wednesday 8th June 2016
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David Beer said:
You have only recently agreed about fitting the relay!


Sorry but that's complete nonsense, my bypass instructions created over three years ago and now shared with more than 100 TVR owners has always included a full synopsis of the true issue and a clear recommendation that its best practice to fit the starter solenoid circuit relay TVR left out. This should be done after completing the bypass, or better still having a new security system fitted and wired correctly by a professional.

David Beer said:
thanks for the advert though.
As a trader you really shouldn't be advertising on here David so I would never support such behavior.

I wish you all the best with your business but I can not support the claim on your website that your Hot Start Kit is a "CURE" for the hot start problem. My reasons for this are factual and well documented, if you leave the immobiliser in the circuit (as you do) and it has issues introduced by TVR when they wired it incorrectly (and it will), your hot start kit is certainly not a "CURE" and should not be sold as such.

Ultimately I'm just trying to help fellow Chimaera & Griffith owners by informing them of the true and complete back story behind the hot start problem, what I am not doing is making a business out of selling relays on the false promise it will "CURE" the problem.

I'm confident people are smart enough to read the information offered and make their own minds up.



swallet

453 posts

124 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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First off a huge thanks to Chimp, Dave Beer etc whose posts over the years on this issue have been really useful.
I'm posting due to what I think is a fairly unique hot start issue.

I have bypassed the immmobiliser starter relay and fitted a decent relay to the starter circuit. All with good guage wire. I've even upgraded the battery starter cable and earth and fitted a new odyssey Battery. Still I have issues.

Fairly routinely if the car gets hot it won't restart for 10-20mins.
Very interestingly, and I think this may be key, if I stop the hot car and then immediately (within a second or two) try to restart her she will fire up ok. If I leave it longer, then I'm stuck for 20mins.
To clarify it's the classic - turn the key and nothing except the fuel pump priming hot start issue.

Having replaced basically the whole starting system my thoughts have turned to the starter motor, but before stripping it down or spunking £ on a new one I thought I would throw the issue out there and also post to highlight the fact that you can do everything mentioned above and still have problems.

Simon.

bobfather

11,119 posts

236 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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Didn't spot this in your post but is the starter motor old? If so then this could be the issue of expanding grease (paste) in the starter solenoid preventing shaft movement

ianwayne

4,396 posts

249 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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I had this even after changing the immobiliser for a new Meta unit (I was getting intermittent fuel pumps not running as well).

If you stopped the car and turned off, and attempted restart it would work. Stop for fuel or 10 mins ish anywhere when hot and it would be dead. This is the classic heat soak issue. The circuit to to the solenoid is the fault. I had a new starter motor fitted in Dec 2015 and I still had the problem. If there are starters out there with a solenoid that works with a lower than standard current, it would help but I'm not sure such a product exists.

I added a 12V relay at the immobiliser link in the wiring loom using this for hints:

http://www.chimaerapages.com/install-hot-start-kit...

All OK so far. Not been all that hot since though but it used to happen sometimes when the car was barely warm.

An upgraded thicker red battery to starter cable is carried out by a lot of users to help starting but it has no relevance if your starter will not turn at all. It is the cct to the starter solenoid getting a bit crispy and high resistance when hot.

andy43

8,007 posts

235 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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David Beer said:
The solenoid draws around 13 amps, the wiring is loosing 6. So even if you Replace the immobiliser you still loose 6 amps. Don't buy the kit but fit the relay. Details on the griff and chim pages.

Edited by David Beer on Tuesday 7th June 19:19
Has anyone ever fitted a relay next to the starter motor? Use all existing signal wiring right to the starter to fire the relay, then take the +ve supply to feed the relay /solenoid right off the main starter supply. Zero loss to the solenoid, giving it a good 13 amps to close provided the chunky/crispy main cable is half decent?

ianwayne

4,396 posts

249 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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That is essentially what I've done. OK the relay isn't physically next to the starter motor, if you did that, access would be very hard in the event of a problem. Electrically wise, I have taken the supply with a ring-tongued wire straight from the +ve battery terminal.

I have interrupted the supply to the starter solenoid that has been through the immobiliser from the ignition key and used it to activate a 12V relay. A supply straight from the battery then goes to the solenoid cct. By doing it all in the footwell, access to a fused wire, relay and the changed wiring is relatively simple. With the use of a small screwdriver and the re-connection of 2 wires, it can be simply rewired back to standard too if necessary.

There are many threads on the 'hot start' issue and I believe some people have done all this under the bonnet using the 12V supply terminal at the alternator. Very practical on the early Chimaera cars with a different or even no immobiliser fitted.

swallet

453 posts

124 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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Thanks Ian.
I have fitted a relay to the solenoid circuit just like you but the wire run in the engine bay is still the original wire. Think I will upgrade this and wrap it in heat shield.
If that doesn't work I'm going to strip down the starter.

SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

212 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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If the starter motor is being removed from the imobiliser would this effect the insurance ?

bobfather

11,119 posts

236 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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swallet said:
Thanks Ian.
I have fitted a relay to the solenoid circuit just like you but the wire run in the engine bay is still the original wire. Think I will upgrade this and wrap it in heat shield.
If that doesn't work I'm going to strip down the starter.
I did this, I ran the wire from the relay, under the dashboard and out through the tunnel sidewall next to the clutch pedal. This minimises proximity to heat sources and keeps the exposed wire length short

bobfather

11,119 posts

236 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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SILICONEKID345HP said:
If the starter motor is being removed from the imobiliser would this effect the insurance ?
yes

ianwayne

4,396 posts

249 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
SILICONEKID345HP said:
If the starter motor is being removed from the imobiliser would this effect the insurance ?
Yes. I did bypass the immobiliser at first temporarily to work out the fault, but wiring in a relay to the start cct doesn't do that. Car is still completely immobilised.

After disabling the immobiliser, when I turn the key, the 12V that was destined for the starter solenoid instead activates a relay. 12V is then available at the solenoid direct from the battery. I put a 20A fuse into the cct too. Turning the key does nothing at all until the immobiliser is disabled.

Edited by ianwayne on Monday 24th April 15:33

Smokey Boyer

503 posts

112 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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I do not have the Meta alarm.

Not sure if this helps or not, but when I experienced hot start issues in the past and the car would not turn over after stopping for petrol etc, simply unplugging the radiator fans (usually just one of them) would be enough get the car started immediately. It can be plugged back in once the car is running.


This also has the effect of making you look like a mechanical genius when everyone is watching you try to start the car, fail, then pop the bonnet and get it started first time.

I now have the fans controlled via the Megasquirt ECU, with it set to only run the fans above a set temperature and most importantly, in light of the above, to only run the fans once the engine speed is above 700 rpm (and therefore not when initially cranking). Touch wood, not had an issue since making that change.

Before running the fans from the ECU, I did consider changing the fan override switch in the car to work differently and stop the fans running so I could start the car without having to pop the bonnet.


SILICONEKID345HP

14,997 posts

212 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
ianwayne said:
Yes. I did bypass the immobiliser at first temporarily to work out the fault, but wiring in a relay to the start cct doesn't do that. Car is still completely immobilised.

After disabling the immobiliser, when I turn the key, the 12V that was destined for the starter solenoid instead activates a relay. 12V is then available at the solenoid direct from the battery. I put a 20A fuse into the cct too. Turning the key does nothing at all until the immobiliser is disabled.

Edited by ianwayne on Monday 24th April 15:33
I have my relay in the engine bay ,Jools made me up an harness.

Never let me down .

Penelope Stopit

10,455 posts

90 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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I can't help but chuckle to myself when I read topics like this
There is nothing complicated about solving a starting problem until posters complicate things
It is of great importance to keep problems to the problems that they are and not intermingle other problems with the problem being discussed
Whoever came up with naming a starter cranking problem when hot as a Hot Start Problem needs to have a re-think
A Hot Start Problem relates to several possible problems hence this terminology needs scrapping
It may help if the main two problems were classed as

1) None Crank When Hot
2) None Fire When Hot
There must be others that can be added

Regarding this particular problem, it is common knowledge that the wiring needs upgrading and the immobiliser circuits rewiring
Once all the wiring is known to be good it is a simple task to prove where the fault is
Using a multimeter to check what voltages are at the battery, starter motor and crank wire when the key is in the crank position, plus checking the engine earth/return will reveal all

Alan461

853 posts

112 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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There were a number of problems causing the starter to not to crank when hot on my 500.
Each time I sorted something the placebo effect made me think everything was fine but later the problem reoccurred.
16mm starter cables didn't help, changed for nice flexi 35mm welding lead. Nobrainer.
The spade connection to the starter solenoid was loose and filthy, replaced with new.
Found a receipt for the immobiliser which was new when I got the car so not too worried about that. Same for starter motor.
The thing that made a massive difference was fitting a relay to the starter solenoid feed using a live from the alternator (30A fused) to step it up.
The starter switch in the ignition barrel is slightly iffy but works 90% of the time so I'll move this to a dash mounted starter switch but as of now I'm not too worried about it.
I can now turn it off baking hot and restart with no issue, or leave it 2, 5 or 10 mins no problem
Many thanks to CoG for explaining all of this forever and again on heresmile

ianwayne

4,396 posts

249 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
Penelope Stopit said:
Whoever came up with naming a starter cranking problem when hot as a Hot Start Problem needs to have a re-think
A Hot Start Problem relates to several possible problems hence this terminology needs scrapping
As a member of Pistonheads since 2015, you may not be aware that although it is not really just a hot start problem (as you helpfully put in bold), it is "no starter turn at all" , but it has commonly be referred to on the Griffs / Chimaeras as this for over 15 years. Since Pistonheads started.

Like vacuum cleaners being called hoovers, people should know it's not accurate but it's what has been the common terminology.

A search of the threads will reveal many, many of them that explain the problem. I read many of them to reach my conclusion.

Other users have given helpful tips and advice regarding bypassing the immobiliser (big help from Chimpongas in the past) and keeping these cars running, not just to chuckle at each other.

Edited by ianwayne on Monday 24th April 23:15

Ribol

9,927 posts

239 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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bobfather said:
My understanding is that the operation of the starter motor solenoid gets stiff or sticky after years of sitting in a hot environment. This, combined with low current due to the Meta alarm link means that when heat further reduces the current we end up with too little energy to fire the solenoid. I had this problem and 6 years ago I fitted the 'hot start kit'. I have never suffered hot start problems since fitting the kit. Therefore, in my experience the hot start kit gets around the issue, sure the right answer should include freeing up the starter solenoid but with the extra current delivered through the kit the stickier solenoid is no longer an issue.

I do intend to replace the motor feed cable and earth next winter but that's an entirely separate issue
Clean and lube up the solenoid, which as you have already worked out yourself is the real problem. Add the relay into the cranking circuit to reduce the load on the immobiliser, David Beer's kit makes that a very easy thing to do, job done.

Changing the starter motor feed cable is a complete waste of time and effort, it isn't by accident that hardly anybody does it and thousands of these cars are out there working reliably. You can never have too many earths on a g/f car but again if everything is in good condition the same applies. I have only owned my Chim for 15 years so maybe I have all this to come but as we speak it is exactly as it left the factory and has never failed to start once. I have added the hot start kit which should help the immobiliser last longer but nothing lasts forever.

Sardonicus

18,514 posts

202 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
quotequote all
Ribol said:
bobfather said:
My understanding is that the operation of the starter motor solenoid gets stiff or sticky after years of sitting in a hot environment. This, combined with low current due to the Meta alarm link means that when heat further reduces the current we end up with too little energy to fire the solenoid. I had this problem and 6 years ago I fitted the 'hot start kit'. I have never suffered hot start problems since fitting the kit. Therefore, in my experience the hot start kit gets around the issue, sure the right answer should include freeing up the starter solenoid but with the extra current delivered through the kit the stickier solenoid is no longer an issue.

I do intend to replace the motor feed cable and earth next winter but that's an entirely separate issue
Clean and lube up the solenoid, which as you have already worked out yourself is the real problem. Add the relay into the cranking circuit to reduce the load on the immobiliser, David Beer's kit makes that a very easy thing to do, job done.

Changing the starter motor feed cable is a complete waste of time and effort, it isn't by accident that hardly anybody does it and thousands of these cars are out there working reliably. You can never have too many earths on a g/f car but again if everything is in good condition the same applies. I have only owned my Chim for 15 years so maybe I have all this to come but as we speak it is exactly as it left the factory and has never failed to start once. I have added the hot start kit which should help the immobilizer last longer but nothing lasts forever.
yes This ^ I have the very same set-up apart from the alarm brand & never experienced an hot-start issue in over 11 years now wink I did clean and rebuild my starter motor on a fairly (2 years already) recent engine overhaul but that was just preventative maintenance on my part

Loubaruch

1,054 posts

179 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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[quote=Ribol.......
Changing the starter motor feed cable is a complete waste of time and effort, it isn't by accident that hardly anybody does it and thousands of these cars are out there working reliably. You can never have too many earths on a g/f car but again if everything is in good condition the same applies. I have only owned my Chim for 15 years so maybe I have all this to come but as we speak it is exactly as it left the factory and has never failed to start once. I have added the hot start kit which should help the immobiliser last longer but nothing lasts forever.
[/quote]

Well said. I have also owned my Griffith for 15 years and never suffered the hot start problem but did include the David Beer relay to relieve the immobiliser weakness.

Unless the battery has been moved to install over heavy starter cables completely misunderstands the problem . If all the starter connections are clean
and the earths intact and the starter motor OK then the factory installed starter cable is quite adequate. There may be a few shortcomings with TVR's but despite the lengthy diatribes on this subject this is not one of them.

Ribol

9,927 posts

239 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
Loubaruch said:
Ribol said:
Changing the starter motor feed cable is a complete waste of time and effort, it isn't by accident that hardly anybody does it and thousands of these cars are out there working reliably. You can never have too many earths on a g/f car but again if everything is in good condition the same applies. I have only owned my Chim for 15 years so maybe I have all this to come but as we speak it is exactly as it left the factory and has never failed to start once. I have added the hot start kit which should help the immobiliser last longer but nothing lasts forever.
Well said. I have also owned my Griffith for 15 years and never suffered the hot start problem but did include the David Beer relay to relieve the immobiliser weakness.

Unless the battery has been moved to install over heavy starter cables completely misunderstands the problem . If all the starter connections are clean
and the earths intact and the starter motor OK then the factory installed starter cable is quite adequate. There may be a few shortcomings with TVR's but despite the lengthy diatribes on this subject this is not one of them.
Pistonheads.com formatting matters
wink

Is diatribes a posh word for posts which contain very few facts but lots of worthless opinions penned by people not qualified to comment on a subject, if so I couldn't agree more.