Hot start problem

Hot start problem

Author
Discussion

Belle427

6,654 posts

215 months

Tuesday 6th September
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erichowden said:
Hi does anyone have a diagram of how to bypass the immobilizer on TVR Chimaera please
You won’t get that kind of info with just the one post for obvious reasons even though a decent auto electrician could do it in minutes if they identify the control unit.
The Facebook owners group is very active and someone there may be able to help if you able to prove your ownership.

Steve_D

13,655 posts

240 months

Tuesday 6th September
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As has been said simple enough to do and I have all the info you need but we have to be careful where that info ends up.
I've sent you a PM.

Steve

Polly Grigora

10,485 posts

91 months

Sunday 18th September
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bobfather said:
Ribol said:
ll very easily explained ..........

Starter drawing more current than it should, damages the contacts inside the immobiliser. The DB mod allows those same contacts to work a bit longer due to how little current they carry post mod. Eventually they give up, new immobiliser required. Was the original problem with the starter ever looked at, probably not, the cycle starts again. If during that cycle the starter dies a death through natural causes the problem is then resolved, if not it carries on.

It is very easy to draw the wrong conclusions, but the good news is it did stop you parking illegally, at least for a while cop
I'm not sure this is entirely correct, it is correct that increasing available contact switching current overcomes the problem of stiction generated within the starter solenoid. There is an assumption here that the stiction will continue to increase over time thus requiring ever greater current and therefore eventually burning out the bypass relay contacts. That may be true for you but I suggest it isn't true for everyone, in my case I assume the stiction has reached a plateau, greater current is required and provided by the DB mod but the amount of required current is no longer increasing. My DB mod has been working for many years without any sign of failure.

These engines operate in many other cars without this hot start problem, this is likely to be due to those solenoids being supplied via better relay contacts. Those solenoids stiffens over time but never gets stiff enough to burn out relay contacts. The issue here is that the TVR solenoid switching system was weak resulting in owners detecting an increasing current level. If the system had been more robust in the first place then one or two of us would have discovered a problem but it would not have become such a big TVR issue. Those problems would have been solved by replacing the starter motors
Rarely does one find a topic that posts the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about sticking solenoid plungers

A solenoid coil is the same as any other coil

The solenoid coils don't know that the plunger is sticking inside its core, its current consumption doesn't all of a sudden dramatically rise because the plunger is sticking

Switch, relay and immobiliser contacts are over time damaged due to the extended length of time it takes for a sticking plunger to travel the full distance of the coils core

Starter solenoids have 2 coils both of which draw current for the initial pull-in action

One solenoid coil no longer draws any current once its plunger has reached the end of its travel

The longer it takes the plunger to cover its full travel, the longer both coils draw current

Keeping on the key for extended periods of time attempting to get the solenoid to work when its plunger is stuck does help burn contacts out

In summary - A sticking solenoid plunger lengthens the time that both of its coils draw current

Good innitsmile

blacktvr

16 posts

126 months

Wednesday 21st September
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Does anyone have a recommended method of lubricating the starter solenoid? Mine gets a bit sticky from time to time.

981Boxess

9,927 posts

240 months

Wednesday 21st September
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blacktvr said:
Does anyone have a recommended method of lubricating the starter solenoid? Mine gets a bit sticky from time to time.
We used to send all our starters/alternators out to a workshop that rebuilt rotating electrics, they assembled all their starter solenoids with vaseline.

Apparently is holds dust less than the likes of grease/copaslip etc and that is why they used it.

Steve_D

13,655 posts

240 months

Wednesday 21st September
quotequote all
I've not taken a new solenoid apart but believe they are assembled dry.
Back in my earliest days working in a garage starter pinions were the inertia type which you dare not try and lubricate with anything other than graphite dust (Which lived in a glass jar on the window sill). I suspect similar would apply to modern starters.

Steve

Belle427

6,654 posts

215 months

Wednesday 21st September
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I'd agree about not lubricating it, just strip it and clean it up.

Polly Grigora

10,485 posts

91 months

Thursday 22nd September
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blacktvr said:
Does anyone have a recommended method of lubricating the starter solenoid? Mine gets a bit sticky from time to time.
On the car or Off?

Adrian@

4,009 posts

264 months

Thursday 22nd September
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Polly Grigora said:
On the car or Off?
You are muddying waters here with this comment...nothing that could be considered flammable should be sprayed onto the starter whilst it is on the car ...it is after all the biggest electrical switch in the car.
I have not read through the post but at 28.00 for a new solenoid and about 20 minutes to do the whole job (I have always considered it the first thing to do if you have ANY start issue). Yes, at that point I would strip and rebuild the motor (simply because I can, adding another 20 minutes ...not including paints drying).
I have found that the biggest pain can be the torx screws that have countersunk heads that are heat dried into the solenoid and many need replacing (drilling the heads off, prior to being replaced). A@

Zener

18,520 posts

203 months

Thursday 22nd September
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Clean and assemble dry the piston usually run in a self lubricating but dry sleeve, its usually congealed muck from the bellhousing leaks etc worming its way into the starter via the pinion housing that make things worse

Adrian@

4,009 posts

264 months

Thursday 22nd September
quotequote all
100% dry clean build, but so you understand why these old units unit can fail, here is a picture of the standard thin-wall brass lined solenoid. The issue for me is that the plunger (a couple of thou undersized of the bore) is zinc plated and over time the plating fails along with exhaust heat-sink from the exhaust, again, over time this seems to cause the brass liner to lift off the internal surface. Worse than this, is the cheaper end of the reconditioning market emery paper the plating leaving bare metal which then rusts gripping the plunger in the solenoid.



A@

Edited by Adrian@ on Thursday 22 September 13:21

Zener

18,520 posts

203 months

Thursday 22nd September
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Perfect example from Adrian biggrin picture too thumbup

Polly Grigora

10,485 posts

91 months

Friday 23rd September
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Polly Grigora said:
blacktvr said:
Does anyone have a recommended method of lubricating the starter solenoid? Mine gets a bit sticky from time to time.
On the car or Off?
Mmmm, haven't visited back yet

For lubricating the solenoid plunger on the car there is a modification needed but it's not worth doing

The reason why a modification isn't worth doing is because there are several other starter motor components lubricated during a new or reconditioned starter motor manufacture that will need lubricating at the same time or even before the solenoid plunger requires lubricating

The speed of plunger travel is not only restricted by friction within the solenoid, the drive lever operation also plays a big part

Use a high melting point grease on all parts shown below and enjoy a trouble free solenoid action until lubricating time calls again



Adrian@

4,009 posts

264 months

Saturday 24th September
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[quote=Polly Grigora]

Mmmm, haven't visited back yet

For lubricating the solenoid plunger on the car there is a modification needed but it's not worth doing

The reason why a modification isn't worth doing is because there are several other starter motor components lubricated during a new or reconditioned starter motor manufacture that will need lubricating at the same time or even before the solenoid plunger requires lubricating

The speed of plunger travel is not only restricted by friction within the solenoid, the drive lever operation also plays a big part

Use a high melting point grease on all parts shown below and enjoy a trouble free solenoid action until lubricating time calls again


More muddying of water ..that there is a modification NOT worth doing.

IMHO, this is a TVR forum, presenting to TVR owners that (not saying this to belittle anyone ever) you will not find stripping starter motors down to rebuild/lubricate/test armtures. But that if you are up for taking the starter off the car to clean a plunger, then you are replacing the solenoid for a new unit. A@

Loubaruch

1,054 posts

180 months

Saturday 24th September
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Adrian is spot on.

With the relatively low cost of a replacement starter motor why would anyone bother with Pollys latest cut and paste offering!