Billy Bilsteins
Discussion
So I've just pulled the trigger on a full set of Bilstens to replace my Gaz Gold Pros which to be honest have served me very well, but it's time for a change and I must be getting old because ride quality is becoming my new TVR obsession. My thinking is Bilstien is an extremely well respected company chosen by the big car makers like BMW & Porsche, while the the units I've ordered don't offer adjustable damping I figure if they're specified correctly in the first place I shouldn't need to keep adjusting them anyway.
Bilstein's use of rubber bushes instead of the Gaz Gold Pro rose joints should alone give ride quality benefits, if the damping is well chosen to match the spring rates and 'Ol Gaasbag's' unique weight bias I'm hoping I'll get what I want. I've spent quite a bit of time discussing my requirements with the former chief chassis engineer for TVR Ben Lang, he was responsible for the Tuscan 2 and Sagaris projects and now works for Ariel having developed the well respected Atom.
Ben's knowledge, experience and reputation are all without question, so armed with detail on how 'Ol Gasbag' differs from a standard Chimaera he did some calculations and recommended what he calls his 'Tuscan S' set up. My LPG conversion adds 45kg rear axle weight, Ben's 'Tuscan S' option apparently works really well on the Cerbera as a sport kit, Ben explained the Cerbera has significantly more rear axle weight than Tuscan or Chimaera so suggested with the right valving the results will be perfect on 'Ol Gasbag'.
The final order ended up looking like this:
2 x Tuscan S Front Damper
2 x Griff/Chim Special Rear Damper (D0351 Special- Retune setting F4-BE5-B967-T1)
2 x Griff/Chim Front Spring
2 x Tuscan Sport Rear Spring
4 x Damper Bush - Small
4 x Damper Bush - Large
Fingers crossed this little lot will retain my great handling but add refinement to the ride quality over poor road surfaces? Watch this space and hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be in a position to report back on how Ben's special bespoke Bilstien set up performs.
Bilstein's use of rubber bushes instead of the Gaz Gold Pro rose joints should alone give ride quality benefits, if the damping is well chosen to match the spring rates and 'Ol Gaasbag's' unique weight bias I'm hoping I'll get what I want. I've spent quite a bit of time discussing my requirements with the former chief chassis engineer for TVR Ben Lang, he was responsible for the Tuscan 2 and Sagaris projects and now works for Ariel having developed the well respected Atom.
Ben's knowledge, experience and reputation are all without question, so armed with detail on how 'Ol Gasbag' differs from a standard Chimaera he did some calculations and recommended what he calls his 'Tuscan S' set up. My LPG conversion adds 45kg rear axle weight, Ben's 'Tuscan S' option apparently works really well on the Cerbera as a sport kit, Ben explained the Cerbera has significantly more rear axle weight than Tuscan or Chimaera so suggested with the right valving the results will be perfect on 'Ol Gasbag'.
The final order ended up looking like this:
2 x Tuscan S Front Damper
2 x Griff/Chim Special Rear Damper (D0351 Special- Retune setting F4-BE5-B967-T1)
2 x Griff/Chim Front Spring
2 x Tuscan Sport Rear Spring
4 x Damper Bush - Small
4 x Damper Bush - Large
Fingers crossed this little lot will retain my great handling but add refinement to the ride quality over poor road surfaces? Watch this space and hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be in a position to report back on how Ben's special bespoke Bilstien set up performs.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Saturday 12th November 19:07
I think you'll get what you're after regarding ride quality Dave. Kate wore a pair of standard Billys at the back for a month while the Nitrons went away for a service and I was very impressed. Despite having different dampers front to rear the car felt very comfortable and, being compliant, had superb poise. This on rubber bushes too.
so these won't be ride height adjustable, not that that matters much.?
Whatever shocks we use they don't have much range up and down and as I run 17 rims I'll try a combination of Rainsport 3 tyres in congunction with possibly going to Bilsteins in line with what your trying to achieve Dave, they are so soft that might be just the job to get more compliance/absorbance.
Just looking at the restricted travel movement our suspension configuration employs I've come to the conclusion you need firm ish shocks but better softer tyres to take out more of the localised vibrations and shocks caused by sudden changes in road condition.
I'm also thinking of increasing the tyre wall height on all four corners so I can run softer tyre pressures over winter etc.
This is all in persuit of what I hope your going to achieve with the Bilsteins Dave, a better ride for the day to day stuff.
I removed my Bilsteins pretty quickly when I first got my Tiv, the rear seals had gone and they didn't have any dampening,
But I felt the front was really ok though.
I'll watch this space with great interest.
Whatever shocks we use they don't have much range up and down and as I run 17 rims I'll try a combination of Rainsport 3 tyres in congunction with possibly going to Bilsteins in line with what your trying to achieve Dave, they are so soft that might be just the job to get more compliance/absorbance.
Just looking at the restricted travel movement our suspension configuration employs I've come to the conclusion you need firm ish shocks but better softer tyres to take out more of the localised vibrations and shocks caused by sudden changes in road condition.
I'm also thinking of increasing the tyre wall height on all four corners so I can run softer tyre pressures over winter etc.
This is all in persuit of what I hope your going to achieve with the Bilsteins Dave, a better ride for the day to day stuff.
I removed my Bilsteins pretty quickly when I first got my Tiv, the rear seals had gone and they didn't have any dampening,
But I felt the front was really ok though.
I'll watch this space with great interest.
ClassiChimi said:
so these won't be ride height adjustable, not that that matters much.?
The ride height on my new Bilsteins can be adjusted, there are grooves cut in the bodies for a circlip, the damper settings are fixed but designed to work with the springs Ben chose and the car's axle weight.The Bilsteins offered by Ben are mono-tube/upside-down gas pressure technology dampers and the result of all the development he did on the Tuscan 2 and Segaris models, apparently they are big step on the Bilsteins TVR fitted to Chimaeras from the early nineties right up to the end of production. Ben started with TVR as Chimaera production ended and when referring to his Bilstein package he uses the term "Mk4" which suggests they are the end result of four development evolutions.
From this Mk4 base point Ben uses quality Eibach springs which along with the valving is all specified based on customer requirements and vehicle specification, essentially you end up with a bespoke set up of the TVR/Bilstein developed final evolution suspension. Personally I don't have an issue with the lack of adjustability as my experience with the Gaz Gold Pros was once I'd dialled them in they were best left alone as, further fiddling simply became a pointless and frustrating exercise of chasing the impossible dream hoping one more or less click would give me the ride quality I sought.
My new Billtein package uses steel bodied dampers so will be heavier than the GGPs, as already stated while the ride height is adjustable (essential)the damping rates are not, they also use old school rubber for the bushes instead of race car inspired rose joints. In summary I've just spent a tidy sum on heavier suspension with squishy rubber bushes and no damping adjustment, this all sounds like a big step backwards but I have strong evidence there's a lot more to it than this.
Bilstein are a massive German OEM suspension company and Ben knows what works on TVRs because he and the German Bilstien engineers did a huge amount of development work during the early 2000's, the handling of the Sagaris in particular was met with universal praise by the motoring press at the time with the Tuscan 2 also massively improved from the Tuscan 1 which was renowned for twitchy challenging handling.
It seems at the time TVR were determined to shake off any question marks over the handling of their cars, the recruitment of a properly qualified suspension & chassis engineer and the direct involvement of the visiting German Bilstein engineers seems like it did the trick, and while I'm under no illusions the Chimaera handling presents challenges that can't just be fixed with a set of better specified coil overs I hopefully can take advantage of some of this development work and will feel the benefit?
Well that's my current thinking anyway and pretty much covers my rational for choosing Ben and the Bilstein product, admittedly it's not a sexy choice like a set of super adjustable track focused Nitrons or Intrax units but as I don't do track days and my objective is to deliver great handing Chimaera with a compliant (UK road friendly) ride at a realistic budget using quality components.... I'd like to think I've made the right choice?
The truth is... only time will tell
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 13th November 07:33
All my cars have Billies...the Sag, the Tuscan S convertible and my 2001 Chim came from the factory with Billies (the rears have been renewed since one leaked a little).
Two weeks ago I replaced the Billies on my BMW328 Sports coupe (after 145k miles and 18 years service !!). I put B6 Sports on but decided to keep the old Eibach springs since they showed no signs of wear.
I've always been pleased with Bilsteins.
Two weeks ago I replaced the Billies on my BMW328 Sports coupe (after 145k miles and 18 years service !!). I put B6 Sports on but decided to keep the old Eibach springs since they showed no signs of wear.
I've always been pleased with Bilsteins.
Here's what got me thinking and had me researching the return to Bilsteins....
On returning from this year's tour of France I noticed one of my rear Gaz Gold Pros had blown its seals, this isn't a criticism of the Gaz product as I'd given them some serious abuse over an extended period that included a number of violent bottoming out episodes before I conceded 12 months ago they needed heavier springs to cope with the extra 45kg 'Ol Gabag' carries just behind her rear axle.
Fitting 400lb springs solved that problem but I suspect the writing was on the wall for the GGPs as they'd already suffered from the violent bottoming out episodes, while my Gaz Gold Pros were being rebuilt and just to keep the car mobile I refitted my scabby ancient original Bilsteins. To be honest I was expecting the car to be virtually undrivable like this, after all if the car bottomed out on the original GGP fitted with 10% heavier springs than my original Billies then surely I wouldn't even get to the next village without smashing into their bump stops?
Sounds logical right
Wrong!
Indeed how wrong was I... first of all I was absolutely amazed by how compliant the ride was with the ancient Billies, with 'Ol Gasbag's' extra 45kg in the boot understandably the car sat low at the rear but this was just the result of these original Billies not being ride height adjustable. Miraculously in spite of the soft Billy spring rates and the low rear ride height they never once bottomed out
.
Take a look at the totally illogical but real world facts:
This got me thinking, what if I could have the lovely Billy ride but add the GGP adjustable ride height advantage to my old Bilstein units? The more I thought about it the more I liked the idea, so I got in touch with Ben who offered to refurbish by old Billies and machine the circlip grooves in their damper bodies to give me the ride height correction I need.
We also spoke at length about the the extra 45kg weight 'Ol Gasbag' carries behind her rear axle, my surprise positive but confusing experience with my original Billies and my passionate desire to have a TVR that would cope with the scared and pot holed UK surfaces without banging and crashing about like an old cart. First of all Ben didn't view my extra 45kg as much additional weight at all, he then went on to explain the development work that went into his Mk4 Billies and how much better they are when compared with the Billies TVR originally fitted to the Chimaera. Ben went on to talk about how the Cerbera carries substantially more rear axle weight than the Chimaera and Tuscan models and how well his Mk 2 Tuscan "S" set up works on the Cerbera, Ben therefore felt it would be ideal for 'Ol Gasbag' too.
I reminded him I was actually really impressed and surprised by my originals and he just said a new set of his Mk4s would be even better especially if he was free to select the spring rates and valving to suit my car. Ben presented me with a number of options including refurbishing my original Billies, in the end going all new only worked our a couple of hundred quid more than all the work my old units would need to bring them up to Mk4 spec. I figured £50 more per unit to go brand new was well worth it so that's the option I took, the suspension will not only be cosmetically perfect but I also get the Tuscan 2 "S" front dampers rather than a rebuild of my original Chimaera spec originals.
My surprise experiences with my ancient old original Bilsteins convinced me there's something more sophisticated going on with the damping when compared with the Gaz units. To be honest the GGPs have been fine but I've always felt the damper settings only function properly in a small window of load and needed springs heavier than ideal for UK roads to operate correctly within that small window. I found 13 clicks worked best with the 325lb rear springs and 12 clicks when I switched to the heavier 400lb springs, one click difference is nothing really and with all the other damper settings either way too soft or way to hard I ended up concluding all that adjustability offered by the GGPs was pretty pointless. Add to this the use of rose joints in favour of road friendly rubber bushes used on the Billies and you end up with suspension that I feel may really more suited to track days than everyday street use?
To be fair to Gaz they are marketing their product to customers who are looking for a more track focussed set up, my mistake was probably to be seduced by the sexy looking rose jointed super adjustable GGPs without really thinking if they were 100% right for me. I don't track my TVR, I want taut handling but also need the car to offer a nice compliant ride on the road, hopefully Ben's specially valved and sprung (to my car) rubber bushed OEM quality Mk4 Bilsteins will deliver just that?
Fingers crossed I'll get exactly what I want, all the evidence suggests I will but suspension is such a subjective thing, one man's compliant is another man's harsh so it won't be until I've fitted my new Billies and spent some time on our lovely UK roads that I'll know for sure if I've made the right choice.
On returning from this year's tour of France I noticed one of my rear Gaz Gold Pros had blown its seals, this isn't a criticism of the Gaz product as I'd given them some serious abuse over an extended period that included a number of violent bottoming out episodes before I conceded 12 months ago they needed heavier springs to cope with the extra 45kg 'Ol Gabag' carries just behind her rear axle.
Fitting 400lb springs solved that problem but I suspect the writing was on the wall for the GGPs as they'd already suffered from the violent bottoming out episodes, while my Gaz Gold Pros were being rebuilt and just to keep the car mobile I refitted my scabby ancient original Bilsteins. To be honest I was expecting the car to be virtually undrivable like this, after all if the car bottomed out on the original GGP fitted with 10% heavier springs than my original Billies then surely I wouldn't even get to the next village without smashing into their bump stops?
Sounds logical right
Wrong!
Indeed how wrong was I... first of all I was absolutely amazed by how compliant the ride was with the ancient Billies, with 'Ol Gasbag's' extra 45kg in the boot understandably the car sat low at the rear but this was just the result of these original Billies not being ride height adjustable. Miraculously in spite of the soft Billy spring rates and the low rear ride height they never once bottomed out
. Take a look at the totally illogical but real world facts:
- Gaz Gold Pros fitted with 325lb rear springs - Car bottoms out
- Gaz Gold Pros fitted with 400lb rear springs - Bottoming out finally solved
- Ancient scabby old Bilsteins with no ride height adjustment running soft 290lb springs - Car sits low but rides incredibly well and amazingly completely refuses to bottom out!!!
This got me thinking, what if I could have the lovely Billy ride but add the GGP adjustable ride height advantage to my old Bilstein units? The more I thought about it the more I liked the idea, so I got in touch with Ben who offered to refurbish by old Billies and machine the circlip grooves in their damper bodies to give me the ride height correction I need.
We also spoke at length about the the extra 45kg weight 'Ol Gasbag' carries behind her rear axle, my surprise positive but confusing experience with my original Billies and my passionate desire to have a TVR that would cope with the scared and pot holed UK surfaces without banging and crashing about like an old cart. First of all Ben didn't view my extra 45kg as much additional weight at all, he then went on to explain the development work that went into his Mk4 Billies and how much better they are when compared with the Billies TVR originally fitted to the Chimaera. Ben went on to talk about how the Cerbera carries substantially more rear axle weight than the Chimaera and Tuscan models and how well his Mk 2 Tuscan "S" set up works on the Cerbera, Ben therefore felt it would be ideal for 'Ol Gasbag' too.
I reminded him I was actually really impressed and surprised by my originals and he just said a new set of his Mk4s would be even better especially if he was free to select the spring rates and valving to suit my car. Ben presented me with a number of options including refurbishing my original Billies, in the end going all new only worked our a couple of hundred quid more than all the work my old units would need to bring them up to Mk4 spec. I figured £50 more per unit to go brand new was well worth it so that's the option I took, the suspension will not only be cosmetically perfect but I also get the Tuscan 2 "S" front dampers rather than a rebuild of my original Chimaera spec originals.
My surprise experiences with my ancient old original Bilsteins convinced me there's something more sophisticated going on with the damping when compared with the Gaz units. To be honest the GGPs have been fine but I've always felt the damper settings only function properly in a small window of load and needed springs heavier than ideal for UK roads to operate correctly within that small window. I found 13 clicks worked best with the 325lb rear springs and 12 clicks when I switched to the heavier 400lb springs, one click difference is nothing really and with all the other damper settings either way too soft or way to hard I ended up concluding all that adjustability offered by the GGPs was pretty pointless. Add to this the use of rose joints in favour of road friendly rubber bushes used on the Billies and you end up with suspension that I feel may really more suited to track days than everyday street use?
To be fair to Gaz they are marketing their product to customers who are looking for a more track focussed set up, my mistake was probably to be seduced by the sexy looking rose jointed super adjustable GGPs without really thinking if they were 100% right for me. I don't track my TVR, I want taut handling but also need the car to offer a nice compliant ride on the road, hopefully Ben's specially valved and sprung (to my car) rubber bushed OEM quality Mk4 Bilsteins will deliver just that?
Fingers crossed I'll get exactly what I want, all the evidence suggests I will but suspension is such a subjective thing, one man's compliant is another man's harsh so it won't be until I've fitted my new Billies and spent some time on our lovely UK roads that I'll know for sure if I've made the right choice.
Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 13th November 09:46
I'll be interested to see what you think - I have similar specc'd revalved shocks, tuscan rear springs and new bushes on my Griff, but refurbed units rather than new, bought through Ben - who is very helpful.
Rides well on 15/16" toyos, seems to handle ok and is more predictable now, certainly better than on the original 20k mile factory setup.
Rides well on 15/16" toyos, seems to handle ok and is more predictable now, certainly better than on the original 20k mile factory setup.
i spoke with a chap who rebuilds shocks from race cars to road cars, he says it's all in the valving, I'd imagine the Bilsteins have superior valving for the road compared to track only focused shocks.
All sounds good Dave, post up some pics fresh out the box Christmas is coming early. Haha
Solving the suspension conundrum would be icing on the cake for many an owner.
I came to Tvr and went more track focused, didn't like it other than a few times a year at tracks,
I was racing around Hethel with Mathew Poxon in his Griff, we had a real laugh, cars similarly matched and us two smiling and laughing at each other, you've got to be very careful and put a lot of trust in people when your close, understand where they brake etc, anyway I was on twin adjust new Protech shocks, Matt on Bilsteins, I was following him into a long fast right hand corner and we're accelerating in 4th gear, I was just so impressed with the arse of his Griff, planted,
I asked him afterwards what shocks he was on!!! My heart said Billies right there and then.
All sounds good Dave, post up some pics fresh out the box
Christmas is coming early. Haha Solving the suspension conundrum would be icing on the cake for many an owner.
I came to Tvr and went more track focused, didn't like it other than a few times a year at tracks,
I was racing around Hethel with Mathew Poxon in his Griff, we had a real laugh, cars similarly matched and us two smiling and laughing at each other, you've got to be very careful and put a lot of trust in people when your close, understand where they brake etc, anyway I was on twin adjust new Protech shocks, Matt on Bilsteins, I was following him into a long fast right hand corner and we're accelerating in 4th gear, I was just so impressed with the arse of his Griff, planted,
I asked him afterwards what shocks he was on!!! My heart said Billies right there and then.
Have you mentioned the Brembo brakes, possible extra unstrung weight.
I've decided it was a bit naughty of me to have fitted them without weighing them first, bigger disks heavy brackets, calipers are lighter but overall slightly heavier than the standard Tvr brakes is my guess.
The advantages far outway any issues over the unstrung weight and my cars felt planted on the fronts eversince they were fitted but some accurate math might be food for thought.
,
I've decided it was a bit naughty of me to have fitted them without weighing them first, bigger disks heavy brackets, calipers are lighter but overall slightly heavier than the standard Tvr brakes is my guess.
The advantages far outway any issues over the unstrung weight and my cars felt planted on the fronts eversince they were fitted but some accurate math might be food for thought.
,
Andav469 said:
I took exactly this route last year Dave, my old Billies weren't leaking but at 16 years old, surely past their best.
The new ones are night and day from the originals and with the ability to adjust the ride height
As I don't know who you get these Bilsteins from, what sort of price shiould I be paying for the 3 position ride height shocks.The new ones are night and day from the originals and with the ability to adjust the ride height
An interesting topic Dave and I would be inclined to agree with your train of thought regarding the Bilsteins.
I went for the Mk4 Bilstein option on mine after much procrastination and very much against the usual trend of Gaz, Nitron etc. I was impressed with the performance of my original Billies taking into account they were 13 years old when I replaced then and still performing well, no leaks any other issues. I didn't fancy adjustable suspension as I know I would be forever fiddling with it. Also I hear a lot of stories about people with leaking or broken dampers etc (not just Gaz some Nitrons as well) and they are all less than 5 years old. At the time it was very rare that people ever reported issues with the original billies and most of these were knocking on 15 years old which is testament to their quality.
As you have mentioned Dave, Bilsteins are the shock of choice for many performance OEM manufacturers such as Audi, BMW, Alfa etc. This is a big selling point as you know if OEMs are prepared to trust the product on their cars the quality must be decent, they would not risk their reputation unless they had assurance the product was up to the task. Maybe I put to much emphasis on the whole OEM thing as I applied the same logic to my brakes, to be fair though both the suspension an brakes have both turned out to be great improvements.
I have had my Mk4 Bilsteins fitted for 5 years now and they are still going strong. The road compliance is fantastic, very comfortable. On track the car does roll more than I would like, however it does remain planted. If I was doing more track work I may consider Nitron / Ohlins but for my current requirements of mainly road + 4-6 trackdays a year they are perfect.
I went for the Mk4 Bilstein option on mine after much procrastination and very much against the usual trend of Gaz, Nitron etc. I was impressed with the performance of my original Billies taking into account they were 13 years old when I replaced then and still performing well, no leaks any other issues. I didn't fancy adjustable suspension as I know I would be forever fiddling with it. Also I hear a lot of stories about people with leaking or broken dampers etc (not just Gaz some Nitrons as well) and they are all less than 5 years old. At the time it was very rare that people ever reported issues with the original billies and most of these were knocking on 15 years old which is testament to their quality.
As you have mentioned Dave, Bilsteins are the shock of choice for many performance OEM manufacturers such as Audi, BMW, Alfa etc. This is a big selling point as you know if OEMs are prepared to trust the product on their cars the quality must be decent, they would not risk their reputation unless they had assurance the product was up to the task. Maybe I put to much emphasis on the whole OEM thing as I applied the same logic to my brakes, to be fair though both the suspension an brakes have both turned out to be great improvements.
I have had my Mk4 Bilsteins fitted for 5 years now and they are still going strong. The road compliance is fantastic, very comfortable. On track the car does roll more than I would like, however it does remain planted. If I was doing more track work I may consider Nitron / Ohlins but for my current requirements of mainly road + 4-6 trackdays a year they are perfect.
Forgot to mention, as you pointed out Dave these shocks are ride height adjustable with the three grooves and the circlip..... however you can have them fully height adjustable if you wish using the below parts:
TVR C0952 - Shock absorber adjusting platform
http://tvrparts.co.uk/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c...
TVR C0950 - Shock absorber spring seat
http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c0...
TVR C0951 - Shock absorber lock ring
http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c0...
TVR C0952 - Shock absorber adjusting platform
http://tvrparts.co.uk/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c...
TVR C0950 - Shock absorber spring seat
http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c0...
TVR C0951 - Shock absorber lock ring
http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c0...
I contacted Ben directly and ended up (hopefully for all the right reasons) buying his all new Mk4 Tuscan 2 "S" package specially valved and sprung to my car.
This bespoke Bilstein package comes with heavy steel bodied dampers that offer no damping adjustment & unfashionable rubber bushes rather than sexy track focussed rose joints, they also cost me more money than a brand new set of the far lighter & fully adjustable Gaz Gold Pros.
Bonkers right
Maybe not
This bespoke Bilstein package comes with heavy steel bodied dampers that offer no damping adjustment & unfashionable rubber bushes rather than sexy track focussed rose joints, they also cost me more money than a brand new set of the far lighter & fully adjustable Gaz Gold Pros.
Bonkers right
Maybe not
This is all very exciting, I've tried going to the Protechs with soft springs, bad choice as I'm usually up at 10-11 clicks out of 12 to control ride height or I'm bottoming out!
I've had a waver in my thoughts of ownership, soon dispelled but it was probably the harsh ride that's provoked such thoughts,
Having driven a number of modern cars recently I've also realised the Tvr isn't that bad even with limited aftermarket shocks.
cant wait to read of Dave's experiments and driving experience with this set up.
This Tuscan Mk2 set up, even sounds outrageously cool
I've had a waver in my thoughts of ownership, soon dispelled but it was probably the harsh ride that's provoked such thoughts,
Having driven a number of modern cars recently I've also realised the Tvr isn't that bad even with limited aftermarket shocks.
cant wait to read of Dave's experiments and driving experience with this set up.
This Tuscan Mk2 set up, even sounds outrageously cool
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