Billy Bilsteins

[ChimpOnGas]

ChimpOnGas said:

I contacted Ben directly and ended up (hopefully for all the right reasons) buying his all new Mk4 Tuscan 2 "S" package specially valved and sprung to my car.

This bespoke Bilstein package comes with heavy steel bodied dampers that offer no damping adjustment & unfashionable rubber bushes rather than sexy track focussed rose joints, they also cost me more money than a brand new set of the far lighter & fully adjustable Gaz Gold Pros.

Bonkers right

Maybe not

ClassiChimi said:

Have you mentioned the Brembo brakes, possible extra unstrung weight

Yes mate, he just said his Mk4 Billies will cope fine, TBH the I never felt any issues with the Brembos on my GGPs either.

I have a feeling the old unsprung weight thing isn't something we need worry about too much, Ben didn't even feel the extra 45kg just behind my rear axle line was a big issue

[Andav469]

ClassiChimi said:

As I don't know who you get these Bilsteins from, what sort of price shiould I be paying for the 3 position ride height shocks.

I bought mine from Ben Lang with the bushes and springs fitted for £900

[ray von]

ChimpOnGas said:

they also cost me more money than a brand new set of the far lighter & fully adjustable Gaz Gold Pros.

Bonkers right

Sorry for the clipped quote but they are a far superior product. I'm certain you'll be well pleased with Bilsteins, you've finally made a good choice

[ChimpOnGas]

My new Billies were £996.24 fully assembled, Ben will make sure the ride height is set so I can just bolt them to the car, I've requested some nose down rake as I've found the car is more stable at speed like this.

Price wise my Mk4 Bilsteins (Tuscan 2 "S" spec) sit between Gaz Gold Pros and Nitrons, for the money their nearest competitor would be Gaz Monos. My research points towards the Gaz Monos beng well regarded but leaning more towards the guy who enjoys his track days, the Bilsteins being a good option for someone who mostly uses their car on the road and who prioritises a compliant road friendly ride.

Chimaera owners have the following suspension options:

• Protech: £560.00 + postage (Protech)

• Gaz Gold Pro: £658.80 + postage (ACT)

• Gaz Monotubes: £958.80 + postage (ACT)

• Mk4 Bilsteins Tuscan 2 "S" spec: £996.24 including postage (Ben Lang)

• Nitrons: £1320.00 + postage (Powers Performance)

• Intrax 1K2 or RSA: various options all being more money than Nitrons

• Ohlins: Even more money than Intrax

All the above use race car type rose joints except the Bilsteins, the Billies fly in the face of fashion by using traditional rubber bushes which I'm hoping will (in part) contribute to my chosen suspension being the more road friendly package compared with all the other more track focussed options?

But at this stage it's really all speculation, and that's the problem, ideally I would have loved to back to back compare all the above options but that's just not practical. So you are left reading reviews on these pages which given everyone's expectations are different and people are always inclined to say what they have is the best it all becomes a bit meaningless.

So I am left making an upfront £1,000 commitment to buy what I hope will suit my needs and expectations, the truth is at this stage my Bilstein choice is nothing more than an expensive gamble. Hopefully I'll have them fitted in a couple of weeks and will report back here on how they perform and I promise to be 100% honest when I present my findings.

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Monday 14th November 07:51

[andy43]

The way Ben told me was TVR used rebuildable yellow Bilsteins through the 90's, then went to a poorer quality green shock which wasn't rebuildable, and also wasn't made by Bilstein - but I may be wrong on manufacturer.
TVR then spent some serious money, I think around 2004/5 ish, and got Bilstein back in for a lot of testing and revising, going to yellow Billies again with retuning to the specs across the TVR range.
If you look back at the reviews of the then-new-to-market Tuscan II they universally praise the handling as being better than previous models, even suggesting the revised car didn't actually want to kill you to death.
http://www.evo.co.uk/tvr/tuscan/6296/tvr-tuscan-2
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-reviews/16055/tvr...
The Griff/Chim bendy chassis with cobbled together part-Sierra suspension won't match the above, but every little helps

[ChimpOnGas]

andy43 said:

The way Ben told me was TVR used rebuildable yellow Bilsteins through the 90's, then went to a poorer quality green shock which wasn't rebuildable, and also wasn't made by Bilstein - but I may be wrong on manufacturer.
TVR then spent some serious money, I think around 2004/5 ish, and got Bilstein back in for a lot of testing and revising, going to yellow Billies again with retuning to the specs across the TVR range.
If you look back at the reviews of the then-new-to-market Tuscan II they universally praise the handling as being better than previous models, even suggesting the revised car didn't actually want to kill you to death.
http://www.evo.co.uk/tvr/tuscan/6296/tvr-tuscan-2
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-reviews/16055/tvr...

Nice summary Andy

It's also nice to see there are plenty of Chimaera owners who are very happy with Ben's Mk4 Bilsteins

andy43 said:

The Griff/Chim bendy chassis with cobbled together part-Sierra suspension won't match the above, but every little helps

My feelings exactly



From Ben Lang - Former Chief Chassis Engineer - TVR Design & Development.

In late 2004, following a nine year gap the decision was taken to reinstate Bilstein as OE damper supplier for all TVR models. Bilstein had traditionally supplied units for Griffith and Chimaera, but since 1995 the bulk of production units had been supplied by HBE. This encompassed Cerbera, Tuscan, Tamora and T350 models.

The motivation for the change was that Bilstein could offer better quality and more durable units backed up by assistance and input in the development of ride and handling. The first car to benefit from this was the Sagaris, followed in the summer of 2005 by the Tuscan 2 and Tuscan convertible. The level of development carried out on these cars far exceeded what had been carried out on previous models. The positive results achieved are evident in some of the road tests published in the motoring press. One of the main improvements, especially noticeable on Tuscan models, is the improvement in ride quality.

In addition to the development of the OE units, TVR was also obliged to develop spares units for older models originally equiped with HBE dampers, without any change of springs or anti-roll bars. Again, a marked improvement in ride and handling quality was experienced when compared with the original parts.

[900T-R]

ChimpOnGas said:

I contacted Ben directly and ended up (hopefully for all the right reasons) buying his all new Mk4 Tuscan 2 "S" package specially valved and sprung to my car.

This bespoke Bilstein package comes with heavy steel bodied dampers that offer no damping adjustment & unfashionable rubber bushes rather than sexy track focussed rose joints, they also cost me more money than a brand new set of the far lighter & fully adjustable Gaz Gold Pros.

Bonkers right

Maybe not

The Gaz are plain old twin tubes though, and in a direct comparison the weight issue is being taken care of by the capability of monotubes to be installed with the valve bodies up (i.e. only the rod is added to the unsprung weight)

[glow worm]

ChimpOnGas said:

My feelings exactly



From Ben Lang - Former Chief Chassis Engineer - TVR Design & Development.

In late 2004, following a nine year gap the decision was taken to reinstate Bilstein as OE damper supplier for all TVR models. Bilstein had traditionally supplied units for Griffith and Chimaera, but since 1995 the bulk of production units had been supplied by HBE. This encompassed Cerbera, Tuscan, Tamora and T350 models.

The motivation for the change was that Bilstein could offer better quality and more durable units backed up by assistance and input in the development of ride and handling. The first car to benefit from this was the Sagaris, followed in the summer of 2005 by the Tuscan 2 and Tuscan convertible. The level of development carried out on these cars far exceeded what had been carried out on previous models. The positive results achieved are evident in some of the road tests published in the motoring press. One of the main improvements, especially noticeable on Tuscan models, is the improvement in ride quality.

In addition to the development of the OE units, TVR was also obliged to develop spares units for older models originally equiped with HBE dampers, without any change of springs or anti-roll bars. Again, a marked improvement in ride and handling quality was experienced when compared with the original parts.

I am confused now... I know Harvey Bailey were first used on Cerberas then on T-cars until 2004, but my 2001 Chim has/had yellow Bilsteins and I thought all later Chims and Griffs would have been Bilstein . Only early cars were fitted with Koni.

[ray von]

ChimpOnGas said:

So you are left reading reviews on these pages which given everyone's expectations are different and people are always inclined to say what they have is the best it all becomes a bit meaningless.

Not necessarily. I've Nitrons on the Griff but would rather have Bilsteins, in fact this time next year(or sooner if someone makes an offer I can't refuse) I may be inclined to sell them and get Bilsteins.
I look forward to your review

[ClassiChimi]

The Evo review, points out much work was done on bump stops. bump stops working in conjunction with the spring when under full compression, not so crude.

These must be the only shocks actually tested by Tvr since the turn of the century,

It also says ride quality was improved on all models

My 2000 year Chim had yellow Bilsteins when I first got the car, they look original as in age!

Edited by ClassiChimi on Monday 14th November 10:55

[glow worm]

These were the factory fitted spring rates that Ben produced.

[ClassiChimi]

glow worm said:

These were the factory fitted spring rates that Ben produced.

So have the 2016 Bilsteins had any valve development since those settings were created or are they the same damper?
I'm hoping they might be even better.

[glow worm]

Those are the original Eibach spring rates with the 2006 damper, not sure about any changes on the valving on the Billies. I remember John Simpson getting his valving modified on his Tuscan vert in 2009 ish. Ben is the Billies expert and would know.

[andy43]

Matthew Poxon said:

Forgot to mention, as you pointed out Dave these shocks are ride height adjustable with the three grooves and the circlip..... however you can have them fully height adjustable if you wish using the below parts:

TVR C0952 - Shock absorber adjusting platform
http://tvrparts.co.uk/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c...

TVR C0950 - Shock absorber spring seat
http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c0...

TVR C0951 - Shock absorber lock ring
http://tvr-parts.com/tvr-parts/part-details/tvr-c0...

Stupid question, but other than needing spring compressors to squish the spring enough to get the circlip/spring seat out, am I right in thinking these should be dead easy to fit?

[ClassiChimi]

If the bushes are already pressed into the shocks then yes.
Otherwise you'll need a big vice, couple of tubes or sockets to press them into the dampers or use a machine shop press.

[SILICONEKID345HP]

Dave have you considered air suspension 😄

[ClassiChimi]

glow worm said:

These were the factory fitted spring rates that Ben produced.

200lbs per inch on the fronts, can anyone clarify this please.
The shocks have around 2 inches of travel does this mean they can load upto 400 lbs ?

I'd ring Ben and get the clarification but I'm not buying yet so don't want to waste his time.

200x2=400 F
275x2=550 R
That's what I'm reading from the figures above?

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Dave have you considered air suspension ??

Yes I looked into air suspension at length, the best option seemed to be the ShockWave range from Ridetech in the states.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJwegsAeMWQ

The first thing you have to understand is the air bag used on air suspension is just a replacement for the steel spring, the damper has the same function and uses the same technology. As such you are into the same process of trying to select a quality damper that's well matched to my TVR's axle weight and the chosen spring rate, this is not a simple task. Also there's absolutely no evidence Ridetech from the States make a better quality damper than the mighty German Bilstein suspension company, quite the opposite in fact.

From what I can tell the only real advantage of air suspension is ease of ride height adjustment, and if you want to enjoy this advantage on the move you'll need a compressor. First off I don't need instant ride height adjustment on the fly, like the tuning of the damping once the ride height is set on my Chimaera that's where it'll stay.

Finally you may make the assumption air suspension would give a better ride than a steel coil spring, but the truth is this isn't necessarily the case, indeed my research indicates air bags can actually give a harsh and fidgety ride and so demand the damper must work harder.

In summary replacing a steel coil spring with air is not necessarily the path to a better more compliant ride, the ShockWave product from Ridetech uses rose joints that I want to get away from and I don't want to have to send my suspension to the States when the dampers need rebuilding. I very much doubt their dampers are better than those from Bilstein and I don't need ride height adjustment on the fly either, fitting a compressor would be tricky on a Chimaera and anyway it just adds weight and complexity for no real advantage.

Finally if I chose the Ridetech ShockWaves I would be starting a process of development to get them right with no real guarantee of success, I'm not a suspension engineer and could never compete with all the work Bilstein and Ben Lang did to develop the Mk4 spec Bilstens.

The program of TVR specific professional development work is another very good reason why I chose the Mk4 Bilsteins, it's unclear to me if any of the other usual suspects have gone through the same level of TVR specific development as the Ben Lang & Bilsten suspension engineer team did when the Mk4 Bilsteins were created.

The way I see it a good part of what I'm paying for with the Bilsteins is all those hours of professional TVR specific development work. For my £996.24 I don't just get the physical product I also get the benefit of Ben Lang's brain and the combined brains of the visiting German Bilstein suspension engineers, a team that apparently spent a huge number of hours suspension dyno and on road testing before they settled on the spring rate/damper valving combination.

If you factor all the development work that comes built into every set of Mk4 Bilstens I'm inclined to feel the £996.24 I'm paying is very good value indeed. Can any of the other manufactures I listed earlier in this post claim the same level of TVR specific suspension development work on their TVR focussed products?

[glow worm]

ClassiChimi said:

200lbs per inch on the fronts, can anyone clarify this please.
The shocks have around 2 inches of travel does this mean they can load upto 400 lbs ?

I'd ring Ben and get the clarification but I'm not buying yet so don't want to waste his time.

200x2=400 F
275x2=550 R
That's what I'm reading from the figures above?

Yes , in the case of an individual spring.But for the whole car then times 4 ,in a static loading case assuming it remains linear throughout the whole travel. But in motion then (Newton's Laws of motion):-

Mass*Acceleration= -velocity*damping coefficient-stiffness*displacement

and this would apply to all modes, tyres , chassis bending, pitch , roll, heave and yaw.

At least that's how I used to model Jaguar aircraft for grass strip landing and I only broke one nose undercarriage

Thinking more about it, the spring and damper don't operate in a straight telescopic way, isn't there a trailing link effect caused by the positioning on the wishbones ? Getting too complicated at my age. Just Integrate it twice using Taylor's Theorem .

Edited by glow worm on Tuesday 15th November 22:24

[ClassiChimi]

glow worm said:

Yes , in the case of an individual spring.But for the whole car then times 4 ,in a static loading case assuming it remains linear throughout the whole travel. But in motion then (Newton's Laws of motion):-

Force*Acceleration= -velocity*damping coefficient-stiffness*displacement

and this would apply to all modes, tyres , chassis bending, pitch , roll, heave and yaw.

At least that's how I used to model Jaguar aircraft for grass strip landing and I only broke one nose undercarriage

Thinking more about it, the spring and damper don't operate in a straight telescopic way, isn't there a trailing link effect caused by the positioning on the wishbones ? Getting too complicated at my age. Just Integrate it twice using Taylor's Theorem .

Edited by glow worm on Tuesday 15th November 09:57

These Bilsteins sound better by the minute. That's a proper spring rate that is