Mbe check over and latest emissions test

[ClassicChimaera]

Hi guys thought this might be of interest to those with after market Ecu and prospective Ecu modders

Spent a very enjoyable morning at Power Performance today having Jay plug the car into his laptop and checkover the car /Mbe and give me a lesson in the diagnostics tool he's put together for laptops

Much like Rover Gauge he's put together a nice screen shot with all the relevant info displayed

You can get much more technical with it and there is tonnes of info and stuff you can do with it if your talented.

And just like Rover gauge there's something very comforting in seeing water temps sticking at 88 degrees on something other than the Tvr gauge.

Cars been running rich, and it's very embarrassing yet confusing.
Idle was slightly to low so I adjusted the idle screw as directed.

Made little if any difference so I returned the screw to its original position,, 3/4 of a turn, well the screws turned in to far and it can only have been me.
I'm traumatised by such a basic error. FFS
IM ABOUT TO LOCTITE THE SCREW because I did not turn the screw 2 turns in!!!
Can these screws move, it binds well, it's not loose or anything,
Anyway it affected my map and Lambda's working to correct the over rich mixture.

I did have fouling on the spark plugs.
Only the last month or so I've noticed a slightly off idle.
Simple idle screw adjustment and it all falls back into place.

Closed loop
Mine works on throttle position so it's working closed loop upto about 1/2 throttle.
When I'm driving normally on public roads this means 90% of the time it's still running closed loop based on where my throttle position is regardless of engine revs, effectively it can read the Lambda's and self adjust upto over 5000 revs with normal throttle applications.
Thinking about my usual driving style, I'm not often pushing the throttle past 1/2 way so in nearly always driving closed loop.

Looking at my map it's conservative in its set slightly rich if anything once it's running open loop or using WOT.
That's how I read it anyway.

Ive been reading a few things about Lambda's and high band is only really important if you spend lots of time flat out
It's a racing thing and narrow band Lambda's can read and adjust in milli seconds.
I've only just touched the surface here so if I'm muddled please excuse me while I think aloud

Waffle
Important things to note.
So emissions test today was done after a mixture adjustment.
Previous test for comparison was in August last year after 12 months with Mbe and it was still fuelling correctly. Other than plugs changed it hadn't been touched by me or Powers and I'd done over 10,000 miles by the August.

The sheet on the left is today's test and running new Iridium plugs.

Thanks Al

Edited by ClassicChimaera on Monday 9th January 20:13

[Matthew Poxon]

Looking good Alun, thanks for the update.

The MBE tool on the laptop sounds good although if I had MBE I think I would just use a standard ODBII reader for basic checks and temps then laptop for more detailed analysis.

[SILICONEKID345HP]

Thats worried me , would a bit of glue stop it moving ?

I dont understand why you are not running a wude band lambda..

[Incognegro]

I have no idea what those difference mean/equate to in use of the car but just thought I'd chip in with... my cerbera is going into Dom on Saturday for a knock MBE and some other tricks. I'll be using a Bluetooth OBDII reader as you suggest Matt which will be running realtime info on my android screen and the torque pro app (which I've been testing on my Range Rover and the info you get is great and easily customisable)

The best bit is the data logging feature so I'll let you know true 0-60s

[ClassicChimaera]

Matthew Poxon said:

Looking good Alun, thanks for the update.

The MBE tool on the laptop sounds good although if I had MBE I think I would just use a standard ODBII reader for basic checks and temps then laptop for more detailed analysis.

Hi Matthew,
Yes Jason also recommends one there's loads out there that will work too I think.

It's so interesting Mate, it's really not that difficult to read the maps etc,

It will take me some time to learn to navigate around the software but I'm going to get a small laptop bespoke,
Jason also showed me one of those heads up things, you put it on the dash and shows you the engine temps etc on your windscreen just plug it in the ODB port. whatever next

I love this bloody Mbe thing, it's like magic has come to town.

There is facility to do a drag strip run (for instance) logging the info
You can then adjust the map to get better times sort of thing,,,, hilarious.
So we can go all F1 and create your own map for Silverstone this just makes me laugh in joy I tell ya. Bonkers.
Not quite correct but you get the gist

Adjusted timing advance today just to detect the difference of idle running.

Something I need to correct.
I've been barking on about no shunting at low revs,
My rev counter reads low, I thought it tailed off a few hundred revs as the engine speed rose bit it shows it's reading low compared to the computer.
We've raised the idle a few hundred revs and it's now around 850/900
Seemed high at first but by the time I'd got home it seemed normal.


Jason discconnected the air temp sensor just to show it up on screen, stuff like that, very informative and I'm now really getting a taste for what's possible.
Just confirming what the Ecu sees is always a good diagnostic test and good to know.
Something that struck me, it's been a bit rich but the Ecu works so fast to correct it to the point it's virtually unnoticeable.
There's no good relying on your ears, you need to look at the numbers to be sure.

I used a old lap top for years,, it was old when I got it, I can't write let alone work one of these
Persevered for years with slow processor etc,,,
You wouldn't do that now in this enlightened age.

That's what were talking about here aren't we.
Even after all this effort I still had these nagging doubts if the engines ok with all my on/off slow driving.

It can't be managed much better, the thing ran for 40 mins at least and tthe computers temp reading was 88 degrees without change at all, fans kicking in and out but the temp stays constant.
Watching the Lambda's working so evenly and such similar numbers from each bank, nice
It's like an X-ray eye into what's going on inside the engine.

One day with all the glorious bits you have on your Griff Matt, one day mate. Bullet proof bomb is what you'll have.
Something to remember is because mine lives outside and I've been driving it's pants off it's been washed about 50 times,,,,
I do it by hand so I well know
So it's wet cos it's outside then I go and wash it with hose and suds on a weekly basis, I use a lot of water.
If this thing was going to fail through water ingress it would have done it by now.

The only thing I'd imagine could happen is the crank trigger wheel wiring could get soaked and fail but whose driving through rivers!

The future is here and we in the Tvr world have it at our finger tips.

Don't change your wheels or shocks or elbows or any of that.
Do this mod properly and you'll have a dream car.

[ClassicChimaera]

Incognegro said:

I have no idea what those difference mean/equate to in use of the car but just thought I'd chip in with... my cerbera is going into Dom on Saturday for a knock MBE and some other tricks. I'll be using a Bluetooth OBDII reader as you suggest Matt which will be running realtime info on my android screen and the torque pro app (which I've been testing on my Range Rover and the info you get is great and easily customisable)

The best bit is the data logging feature so I'll let you know true 0-60s

Please come back and tell us how you get on.
I've seen all this today, sweets for blokes

[ClassicChimaera]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Thats worried me , would a bit of glue stop it moving ?

I dont understand why you are not running a wude band lambda..

I'm going to mark the screw and keep my eye on it
I don't believe it's moved on it's own accord so this way I'll be sure.
It's proper upset me I can tell you.

Wide band.
I read a little (not enough yet) so don't want to say something incorrect
Mbe ithe narrow band are still giving info at high revs unless your flooring it.

Why should I go wide band ?
What will I gain.
Is it necessary for a road based car that runs under 3000 revs most it's life, it's got its power it's loosened up and fast, I use mm of throttle not inches

[ClassicChimaera]

I've been expecting someone to tell me it's running lean, after looking at the print out that's what a mechanic said. Not a Tvr mechanic, I'm not even sure if he's a time served mechanic, he must be used to landrovers .
Does anyone else agree with him based on these figures.
Thanks Al

[Matthew Poxon]

One day! Fingers crossed. 🤞

Glad to hear you are using your car Alun, that is what they are built for and sounds like you have been getting lots of enjoyment out of yours. Good on you. Looking forward to catching up this year at some point sir.

Good luck with you install Alistair, the latest MBE on your awesome cerb should be the icing on the cake. Good shout on the Bluetooth ODBII reader combined with an app, good solution and loads of accessories and apps available being the standard diagnostics port on all cars 2001 onward (I think). You can just leave the OBD unit plugged in and fire up the app on your smart phone whenever you want to look at the readings 😎

[SILICONEKID345HP]

I thought narrow band just targets 14.7, i might be wrong .

[ClassicChimaera]

Matthew Poxon said:

One day! Fingers crossed. ??

Glad to hear you are using your car Alun, that is what they are built for and sounds like you have been getting lots of enjoyment out of yours. Good on you. Looking forward to catching up this year at some point sir.

Good luck with you install Alistair, the latest MBE on your awesome cerb should be the icing on the cake. Good shout on the Bluetooth ODBII reader combined with an app, good solution and loads of accessories and apps available being the standard diagnostics port on all cars 2001 onward (I think). You can just leave the OBD unit plugged in and fire up the app on your smart phone whenever you want to look at the readings ??

Yes you can.

I've had to enjoy it Matt, toughest time of my life, I appreciate what I have more because once things are gone there gone.

I have to pinch myself every damn time I start it the Mbe has smoothed out it's rough edges and it's becoming sublime to drive. It's as good slow as fast, the mapping and pops, I laugh sometimes and just thank Jason for knowing where and at what revs to adjust the mix to create it,


I'd hate to think people might think I'm gloating or showing off,
I just want everyone to have such a good set up.
At the same time another Tvr was fired up at Powers CUX,,, IT RAN LOVELY, REALLY LOVELY.
I just feel when the engines hot it's not as effective at cooling or managing it with CUX.

I think it's when you start tuning or using the engine hard is when you absolutely need a decent mappable Ecu
So you hardly need to chuck the CUX away but if and when or because you want the car starting trouble free and running at it's optimal your ready for the cost of a new ECU
If it works like mine you'll enjoy the car for years on a different level.
Mapping at 200 Rev intervals has a lot to do with all this if you ask me, Jason spends a lot of time perfecting these mapping points. He's the real star.

You'll love it more than most things on your car !Matthew and that's really saying something.
I spent 5K on the engine and don't want to do it again in a hurry
That's why I have a Mbe ultimately.

[ClassicChimaera]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

I thought narrow band just targets 14.7, i might be wrong .

Good point
And I've read that too.
I think the AFR is effected by the mapper at higher revs Daz by just changing the map so dialling out a lean mix.
As long as the engines characteristics don't change it should stay safe. That's my understanding.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

Good fun these Ecu

[N7GTX]

ClassicChimaera said:

I've been expecting someone to tell me it's running lean, after looking at the print out that's what a mechanic said. Not a Tvr mechanic, I'm not even sure if he's a time served mechanic, he must be used to landrovers .
Does anyone else agree with him based on these figures.
Thanks Al

Al, those figures on the MOT emissions print out are absolutely perfect. A 3 year old car would not better them with a modern cat and temp probes!
Fast idle:
CO - 0.05%
HC - 30ppm
Lambda - 1.005 (ignore the 5 on the end. 1 = 14.7 to 1 so perfect)

Natural idle:
CO - 0.01% - you can't go lower

Amazing for an old engine design

[ClassicChimaera]

N7GTX said:

Al, those figures on the MOT emissions print out are absolutely perfect. A 3 year old car would not better them with a modern cat and temp probes!
Fast idle:
CO - 0.05%
HC - 30ppm
Lambda - 1.005 (ignore the 5 on the end. 1 = 14.7 to 1 so perfect)

Natural idle:
CO - 0.01% - you can't go lower

Amazing for an old engine design

Yes Jason was amused and pleased to hear it Iain.

See all this wittering on I do there's a point to it somewhere.

The engines now done 20,000 miles since the engine rebuild in 2012 and seems in rude health.
Ok now I'm relaxed, fk me ive thrashed it on a few tracks too. Once your out there worrying about pistons disappears and only every ounce of power is all that counts.

I've been trying to convince myself and justify this mod for a year, these read outs prove I was right to do it in my mind.
I keep telling people I get 30 to a gallon if I feather it. Maybe they'll believe me now


Where's that fking drag strip

Edited by ClassicChimaera on Tuesday 10th January 00:13

[ClassicChimaera]

As this is Mbe based and I'm on a role
Something I clean forgot to mention to Jason!
If I had a criticism of my set up it's the throttles abrupt.
It's not a criticism as I can manage it but the throttle is so responsive to any pressure change with my foot that I sometimes find just trying to introduce a tiny amount of acceleration it can sometimes be more than I need, it's like the second the throttle flap opens even the smallest amount there's power and it's off.
I put a new throttle cable on it and it was great, really accurate and motorbike like,
I think the cable needs taking off and oiling, it's a bit stiff.
I'll try that and see how it goes.
It's linier smooth yet I find it hard to press in tiny increments

I've driven Rich's Red car (god bless him) with the canams. It's very different on the throttle, it's more limo like, smooth on and off, gradual almost, felt very nice and easy to use. I put that down to the idle valve, dunno if there all like that but mines much more direct and if you shut off it's off full stop.
This is wonderful for driving the car on the throttle as you can regulate your speed effortlessly with a quick lift of the throttle and I use engine braking probably more than I should so it's really enjoyable but requires a really subtle feel to get the best out of it.
Just thought I'd mention that
It's probably the cable anyway.

[ianwayne]

Do you still have 2 return springs on the throttle lever next to the plenum?

I removed one of mine to make the throttle operation a bit softer / easier. I keep the second spring with me of course should the one break.

[Brithunter]

ClassicChimaera said:

As this is Mbe based and I'm on a role
Something I clean forgot to mention to Jason!
If I had a criticism of my set up it's the throttles abrupt.
It's not a criticism as I can manage it but the throttle is so responsive to any pressure change with my foot that I sometimes find just trying to introduce a tiny amount of acceleration it can sometimes be more than I need, it's like the second the throttle flap opens even the smallest amount there's power and it's off.
I put a new throttle cable on it and it was great, really accurate and motorbike like,
I think the cable needs taking off and oiling, it's a bit stiff.
I'll try that and see how it goes.
It's linier smooth yet I find it hard to press in tiny increments

I've driven Rich's Red car (god bless him) with the canams. It's very different on the throttle, it's more limo like, smooth on and off, gradual almost, felt very nice and easy to use. I put that down to the idle valve, dunno if there all like that but mines much more direct and if you shut off it's off full stop.
This is wonderful for driving the car on the throttle as you can regulate your speed effortlessly with a quick lift of the throttle and I use engine braking probably more than I should so it's really enjoyable but requires a really subtle feel to get the best out of it.
Just thought I'd mention that
It's probably the cable anyway.

Suggest you find a motorcyle cable oiler. These push the oil down the cable by hydraulic pressure. Found my old one the other day in the clear out. Bought it back in 1980 to oil the clutch cable on the 750 Bonnie. Do they not do PTFE lined cables?

[TV8]

N7GTX said:

Al, those figures on the MOT emissions print out are absolutely perfect. A 3 year old car would not better them with a modern cat and temp probes!
Fast idle:
CO - 0.05%
HC - 30ppm
Lambda - 1.005 (ignore the 5 on the end. 1 = 14.7 to 1 so perfect)

Natural idle:
CO - 0.01% - you can't go lower

Amazing for an old engine design

Good work Alun, I might need you to put my cars plates on the for MOT emmissions test...

There is also a noticeable (but small) difference in the co2 @ idle. Could this be the 6 rated plugs given that everything else is the same?

[Yex 450]

Excellent update Alun, keep them coming

Will be calling Dom in the near future to get my MBE fitted and mapped by Jay now all the breathing improvements and new 885 cam have been installed. Not aiming for outright BHP but after seeing quite a few posts on here from you and other MBE users I'm expecting a smoother engine across the rev range in all temperatures and a useable slug of torque thrown in for good measure in the mid-range

[ClassicChimaera]

If anyone actually took time out of their lives to read that croc of ....
hopefully some of it is accurate and helpfull.

Graham, just the man

It's interesting and a very good question re the plugs.
I think I have to give it more time to put a few miles on them first, keep an eye on colour and performance before saying to much.

It's simply true to say since the moment I pulled out the drive with these Iridium plugs in the car felt sharper and I use even less throttle to chug about, it's almost off most the time, so my thoughts are yes they have helped but it's also been tweaked so not completely sure.
I'm using the standard plug gap size as comes set by NGK 0.79 mm which is easier on the coils as much as anything.
Seems really good So far


Cable oiler,, I miss my old one more than you know. I've just bought a chain link extractor

I've resorted to an even older method, get a glove, spike a hole through the tip of one finger, push the cable end through it, fill the clove with a suitable lubricant, hang it high and let gravity do the rest.

Edited by ClassicChimaera on Tuesday 10th January 11:31