Central Locking Issues - Fekin Pish Poor TVR Wiring Again!

[Jhcolling]

Can somebody please enlighten me, i have owned my Chimaera for 8 weeks now and have never seen a green light. Where is it, what is it and what does it symbolise? The car also has a tendency to completely lock me out at random.

It is a 98 450 with a meta alarm and clifford sounder.

[ChimpOnGas]

Steve_D said:

It is the alarm that does the flip between lock & unlock.
For testing take a test wire connected to earth and touch it to pin 3 of the relay (with relay plugged into loom). This should do unlock. Touch pin 2 to lock.
This should prove if the fault is relay or alarm related.

Steve

Hi Steve, I've checked it properly now and here's what I found:

• Pin 2 (lock) on the CDL relay is correctly only earthing when I when I press the fob - black wire with white trace

• The car unlocks but because the car is already locked I get a double 'clack, clack' sound from the solenoid

• Pin 3 (unlock) on the CDL relay was found to be permanently earthed - white wire with purple trace

• The car refuses to unlock

I then went on to investigated wiring at both doors:

• With my meter taking a permanent live from the +V on the relay socket and using the rogue earth at pin 3 as the ground source I set about moving the wires at the solenoid wiring connector and even disconnecting the connector at the passenger door solenoid, my meter stayed fixed at 12.8V

• Leaving my meter connected in the exact same way I repeated the test on the drivers door, this time I could stimulate momentary drops in the voltage reading, I separated the connector and repeated the test which proved the issue sits somewhere between the the relay socket and the dashboard

I think I'm getting somewhere

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Friday 14th April 09:06

[Steve_D]

There should be a plug at the immobiliser. Have you tried testing the CL relay with the immobiliser unplugged?

Steve

[ChimpOnGas]

Steve_D said:

There should be a plug at the immobiliser. Have you tried testing the CL relay with the immobiliser unplugged?

Steve

Hi Steve, there are two white connector plugs at the alarm unit under the dash next to the CL relay, as I understand it the immobiliser is buried behind the radio, I did try refitting the relay with both those white alarm plugs disconnected and it was dead.

With everything connected back up I get a click from the relay as soon as I refit it and dull clunk from the solenoid.

I also tested continuity on the white wire with purple trace (unlock wire) between the relay holder and the disconnected small plug then from the relay holder to the disconnected large plug and I got the beep from my meter in both cases, saying that if every point I'm testing is earthed which it seems to be all I'm really proving is I have continuity with earth.

Back on it tomorrow so any tips and pointers are greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Dave.

[Penelope Stopit]

There is a very good chance that the fault is in the drivers side door harness, if the fault isn't in the door harness you could check to see if there is a door loom harness plug inside the car close to the A Post and disconnect it there so as to prove a point, also if need be mirror the same test at the passenger door, don't bank on the fault being at one door, after checking one door always leave it disconnected and then check the other door, there is always the possibility of there being faults at both doors
Is there a possibility that micro switches are also fitted and wired in each door?

[ChimpOnGas]

Penelope Stopit said:

There is a very good chance that the fault is in the drivers side door harness, if the fault isn't in the door harness you could check to see if there is a door loom harness plug inside the car close to the A Post and disconnect it there so as to prove a point, also if need be mirror the same test at the passenger door, don't bank on the fault being at one door, after checking one door always leave it disconnected and then check the other door, there is always the possibility of there being faults at both doors
Is there a possibility that micro switches are also fitted and wired in each door?

Hi mate, here's what I did with respect to checking the door harnesses, and what I found....

ChimpOnGas said:

I then went on to investigated wiring at both doors:

• With my meter taking a permanent live from the +V on the relay socket and using the rogue earth at pin 3 as the ground source I set about moving the wires at the solenoid wiring connector and even disconnecting the connector at the passenger door solenoid, my meter stayed fixed at 12.8V

• Leaving my meter connected in the exact same way I repeated the test on the drivers door, this time I could stimulate momentary drops in the voltage reading, I separated the connector and repeated the test which proved the issue sits somewhere between the the relay socket and the dashboard

The short definitely exists in the harness between drivers door solenoid connector and the dashboard area where the alarm and immobiliser reside, I have checked the door pin switch and it seemed fine but I will check it again.

Personally I think the solution will involve me cutting the bad wire at each end and running a new one as unpicking the loom isn't exactly a practical option. Interestingly someone has been in here before me (must be over 8 years ago), it looks like at some time the drivers door solenoid was replaced because there are crimp connectors between the solenoid and its connector indicating a generic solenoid was used and the crude cut and crimp method was his way to cobble the original connector on the new solenoid.

Thanks for your input, Dave.

[Penelope Stopit]

It's your call but, chopping a wire out and running a new one is a step in the wrong direction, you do need to find the fault, my reasoning...
If there is ever an electrical fault that is not found but by-passed there is a very good chance that should the fault be a wiring fault the area where the fault is can only get worse, this is why so many vehicles burn out
As I have stated above - Your car your call

Is there any possibility of the boot lock actuator having built in switching for the CLS?

[ChimpOnGas]

Penelope Stopit said:

It's your call but, chopping a wire out and running a new one is a step in the wrong direction, you do need to find the fault, my reasoning...
If there is ever an electrical fault that is not found but by-passed there is a very good chance that should the fault be a wiring fault the area where the fault is can only get worse, this is why so many vehicles burn out
As I have stated above - Your car your call

Is there any possibility of the boot lock actuator having built in switching for the CLS?

If you have identified just one wire that's proven to be broken causing a short, a wire that's buried and bound up deep inside a completely inaccessible loom.... how would you suggest fixing it?

A: Rip the whole loom out and remake it?

B: Cut the bad wire at each end and run a new good one?

With respect I have to function in the real world and fix my central locking quickly so I can continue to enjoy the car again without spending days pulling the loom out of the car or paying someone a small fortune to rewire it, and for the sake of one broken wire. I appreciate cutting and replacing the bad wire is not text book but I'm not functioning in a text book world, I'm just trying to fix a simple CDL fault.

If you have a better solution please don't hold back explaining it.

Thanks again. Dave.

[Penelope Stopit]

I only know one way of doing a job and have never let difficulty or time be a deciding factor
Hence me stating,"It's your call"
This is an unknown fault until found and could be the beginning of the end, rubbing or shorting wires cause fires, the unknown could be multiple wires rubbing or shorting
Unfortunately there are no short cuts in finding and repairing a short/rub

Have you taken a look at the boot actuator?
Have you looked for micro switches wired into the CLS somewhere?
You have proven that there is a negative on a wire that you consider shouldn't be there. Are you 100% sure that the lock and unlock signals are only a pulse rather than a change-over from lock to unlock, I ask this due to there sometimes being a timer built into the CLS relay. Does the alarm switch a pulse? Have you disconnected the alarm/CLS control unit? Is the alarm/CLS control unit keeping a - on one wire when it shouldn't be?

You have proven that there is a negative on a wire that you consider shouldn't be there. Are you 100% sure that the lock and unlock signals are only a pulse rather than a change-over from lock to unlock

See below, make sure everything in the CLS circuit is disconnected before testing the problem wire, if you don't have evrything disconnected the test is pointless

Something else to think about is, if your car has CLS actuators in the doors with more than two wires going to them (The majority of add-on front door actuators have 5 wires), the actuators will have 2 wires for actuating and 3 wires for switching, one wire being a common + or -, 5 wire actuators switch a + or - depending how the circuit is wired and what the relay needs to operate it to the CLS Relay and this swiched + or - is not a pulse, this switched + or - is permanent until the actuator is operated and then it is permanent again on the other switching contact

There may not be a loom fault
As far as I can gather you are testing the wire that has the suspected short on it while having every known component that connects to it disconnected, if you haven't disconnected every component do so before delving deeper

I apologise for my post being a touch out of order, I am very busy right now and must move on Good look in finding the fault

[Penelope Stopit]

I have just enough time to post this - Sometimes a wire with some slack at each end will pull out of a loom or move a little inside the loom to prove a point of there being a short inside the loom, only attempt pulling on a wire when all else has failed, by failed I mean you have no way of getting to the wire.

I do appreciate that you could possibly know everything I have posted, the problem is that I don't know what you know, if you know what I mean

[Steve_D]

I know of 9 routes for the White/Purple.
1 A-30k on back of use box. this is to/from relay 6 interior light delay.
2 N/S Door
3 N/S Cill switch
4 Alarm
5 Alarm
6 Central lock relay
7 O/S Door
8 O/S Cill switch
9 Relay 15 which seems to be unused.

Steve

[Ribol]

ChimpOnGas said:

Oh how I love TVR wiring... NOT!

The problem you have isn't "Fekin Pish Poor TVR wiring" it is your "Fekin Pish poor grasp" of how basic central locking systems work.

It isn't a complicated system and any average alarm fitter could diagnose this fault in less than half an hour including taking the dash top off, so it isn't going to cost you much to get that much done.

My advice would be to take you car to someone who has a reasonable understanding of car electrics before you waste any more money on parts you don't need and doing work which isn't necessary.

[Ribol]

Penelope Stopit said:

Have you taken a look at the boot actuator?
Have you looked for micro switches wired into the CLS somewhere?
You have proven that there is a negative on a wire that you consider shouldn't be there. Are you 100% sure that the lock and unlock signals are only a pulse rather than a change-over from lock to unlock, I ask this due to there sometimes being a timer built into the CLS relay. Does the alarm switch a pulse? Have you disconnected the alarm/CLS control unit? Is the alarm/CLS control unit keeping a - on one wire when it shouldn't be?

You have proven that there is a negative on a wire that you consider shouldn't be there. Are you 100% sure that the lock and unlock signals are only a pulse rather than a change-over from lock to unlock

See below, make sure everything in the CLS circuit is disconnected before testing the problem wire, if you don't have evrything disconnected the test is pointless

Something else to think about is, if your car has CLS actuators in the doors with more than two wires going to them (The majority of add-on front door actuators have 5 wires), the actuators will have 2 wires for actuating and 3 wires for switching, one wire being a common + or -, 5 wire actuators switch a + or - depending how the circuit is wired and what the relay needs to operate it to the CLS Relay and this swiched + or - is not a pulse, this switched + or - is permanent until the actuator is operated and then it is permanent again on the other switching contact

There may not be a loom fault
As far as I can gather you are testing the wire that has the suspected short on it while having every known component that connects to it disconnected, if you haven't disconnected every component do so before delving deeper

I apologise for my post being a touch out of order, I am very busy right now and must move on Good look in finding the fault

The boot actuator has nothing to do with this, it is a completely separate circuit on TVRs.
The alarm gives a pulse, not a timed pulse as used in total closure systems, nor vacuum systems, nor changeover systems or slave motor systems.
As for the solenoid wiring/configuration, you have the answer at the top of the page, look at the relay being used.

[Penelope Stopit]

Ribol said:

Penelope Stopit said:

Have you taken a look at the boot actuator?
Have you looked for micro switches wired into the CLS somewhere?
You have proven that there is a negative on a wire that you consider shouldn't be there. Are you 100% sure that the lock and unlock signals are only a pulse rather than a change-over from lock to unlock, I ask this due to there sometimes being a timer built into the CLS relay. Does the alarm switch a pulse? Have you disconnected the alarm/CLS control unit? Is the alarm/CLS control unit keeping a - on one wire when it shouldn't be?

You have proven that there is a negative on a wire that you consider shouldn't be there. Are you 100% sure that the lock and unlock signals are only a pulse rather than a change-over from lock to unlock

See below, make sure everything in the CLS circuit is disconnected before testing the problem wire, if you don't have evrything disconnected the test is pointless

Something else to think about is, if your car has CLS actuators in the doors with more than two wires going to them (The majority of add-on front door actuators have 5 wires), the actuators will have 2 wires for actuating and 3 wires for switching, one wire being a common + or -, 5 wire actuators switch a + or - depending how the circuit is wired and what the relay needs to operate it to the CLS Relay and this swiched + or - is not a pulse, this switched + or - is permanent until the actuator is operated and then it is permanent again on the other switching contact

There may not be a loom fault
As far as I can gather you are testing the wire that has the suspected short on it while having every known component that connects to it disconnected, if you haven't disconnected every component do so before delving deeper

I apologise for my post being a touch out of order, I am very busy right now and must move on Good look in finding the fault

The boot actuator has nothing to do with this, it is a completely separate circuit on TVRs.
The alarm gives a pulse, not a timed pulse as used in total closure systems, nor vacuum systems, nor changeover systems or slave motor systems.
As for the solenoid wiring/configuration, you have the answer at the top of the page, look at the relay being used.

Thank you very much for your input

[ChimpOnGas]

Ribol said:

ChimpOnGas said:

Oh how I love TVR wiring... NOT!

The problem you have isn't "Fekin Pish Poor TVR wiring" it is your "Fekin Pish poor grasp" of how basic central locking systems work.

Many thanks for your delightfully respectful comments Ribol, you've been away for a while but you clearly haven't lost any of your special ability to make unnecessarily offensive comments.

Your behavior mirrors that of a bully, and it's worth remembering others who read your offensive comments will also see you in a similar light, if your intention is to present yourself as a rough uncultured individual you are doing a most excellent job. As we've never met and you've historically over many years taken a vociferous dislike for me, I can only assume you failed to be educated properly from an early age to treat others in a civilised way. This is not your fault so you have my deepest sympathy, but one can only hope its not something that will be passed on to a future generation.

Can I remind you his forum is not a competition, it's also not intended for ignorant ill educated people to vent their personal emotional issues by abusing others, if you consistently find it impossible to treat people with respect you really shouldn't be commenting.... however superior you arrogantly feel your knowledge is.

Please refrain from ever responding to any more of my posts.

Thank you, Dave.

[ChimpOnGas]

Steve_D said:

I know of 9 routes for the White/Purple.
1 A-30k on back of use box. this is to/from relay 6 interior light delay.
2 N/S Door
3 N/S Cill switch
4 Alarm
5 Alarm
6 Central lock relay
7 O/S Door
8 O/S Cill switch
9 Relay 15 which seems to be unused.

Steve

Thanks Steve, very helpful.

Dave.

[Steve_D]

ChimpOnGas said:

Steve_D said:

I know of 9 routes for the White/Purple.
1 A-30k on back of use box. this is to/from relay 6 interior light delay.
2 N/S Door
3 N/S Cill switch
4 Alarm
5 Alarm
6 Central lock relay
7 O/S Door
8 O/S Cill switch
9 Relay 15 which seems to be unused.

Steve

Thanks Steve, very helpful.

Dave.

I've not found anything the white /purple does in the doors but there could still be a short in there.

Steve

[ChimpOnGas]

Steve_D said:

I've not found anything the white /purple does in the doors but there could still be a short in there.

Steve

Hi Steve, many thanks for returning to this and trying to support me.

The good news is..... I now have both lock and unlock...

The bad news is something remains very wrong with the wiring and I'm still searching for the source of the problem

While I've regained full functionality of my lock & unlocks I could only do so by disconnecting both door switches...

Also with my meter between the earth and the live wires on each switch I'm only seeing 7.9v?



So I went to the battery for a reliable earth and once more got 7.9v, I then took the live side from my battery and used the black door switch wire as the earth... and got a healthy 12.7v which indicates to me I've got good earths at the door switches.

In Summary

1. With the door switches connected the car will lock but refuses to unlock

2. With the door switches connected the only way to unlock the car is manually press the unlock contacts

3. With both door switches disconnected the car both locks and unlocks perfectly

4. The white wire with purple trace at each door switch only carries 7.9v

5. The white wire with purple trace at pin 3 on the CL relay also only carries 7.9v


Any ideas folks?

Thanks again, Dave.

[Penelope Stopit]

ChimpOnGas said:

Steve_D said:

I've not found anything the white /purple does in the doors but there could still be a short in there.

Steve

Hi Steve, many thanks for returning to this and trying to support me.

The good news is..... I now have both lock and unlock...

The bad news is something remains very wrong with the wiring and I'm still searching for the source of the problem

While I've regained full functionality of my lock & unlocks I could only do so by disconnecting both door switches...

Also with my meter between the earth and the live wires on each switch I'm only seeing 7.9v?



So I went to the battery for a reliable earth and once more got 7.9v, I then took the live side from my battery and used the black door switch wire as the earth... and got a healthy 12.7v which indicates to me I've got good earths at the door switches.

In Summary

1. With the door switches connected the car will lock but refuses to unlock

2. With the door switches connected the only way to unlock the car is manually press the unlock contacts

3. With both door switches disconnected the car both locks and unlocks perfectly

4. The white wire with purple trace at each door switch only carries 7.9v

5. The white wire with purple trace at pin 3 on the CL relay also only carries 7.9v


Any ideas folks?

Thanks again, Dave.

Good find, your winning
I like you have no idea why the white with a purple unlock wire is connecting somewhere with the white with a purple door switches wires, apart from them being the same colour they should not be linked together and I wonder if a mistake has been made at some time and they have been joined together yet the joint didn't work but now does (only a thought)
There is a possibility that the wires are shorting together somewhere rather than joined together (door looms?)
I take it you are getting the 7.9 volts reading when the alarm/CLS is disconnected (if not disconnect and test)
If I was you I would be looking at the interior light circuit, the 7.9 volts could possibly be coming from the nterior light or interior light delay unit/relay
Disconnect the interior light, perhaps the delay unit is built into the interior light and if it isn't you will need to find the delay unit/relay, whatever, disconnect interior lights and delays and test
There is a very good chance that the 7.9 Volts at the door switches is correct, on a standard interior light circuit with no delay 12 Volt will be present at the door switches until they are earthed
If the 7.9 Volts at the door switches is correct, the fault is as you have found....there is a short or connection between door switches and the CLS white/purple wire

[N7GTX]

ChimpOnGas said:

Ribol said:

ChimpOnGas said:

Oh how I love TVR wiring... NOT!

The problem you have isn't "Fekin Pish Poor TVR wiring" it is your "Fekin Pish poor grasp" of how basic central locking systems work.

Many thanks for your delightfully respectful comments Ribol, you've been away for a while but you clearly haven't lost any of your special ability to make unnecessarily offensive comments.

Your behavior mirrors that of a bully, and it's worth remembering others who read your offensive comments will also see you in a similar light, if your intention is to present yourself as a rough uncultured individual you are doing a most excellent job. As we've never met and you've historically over many years taken a vociferous dislike for me, I can only assume you failed to be educated properly from an early age to treat others in a civilised way. This is not your fault so you have my deepest sympathy, but one can only hope its not something that will be passed on to a future generation.

Can I remind you his forum is not a competition, it's also not intended for ignorant ill educated people to vent their personal emotional issues by abusing others, if you consistently find it impossible to treat people with respect you really shouldn't be commenting.... however superior you arrogantly feel your knowledge is.

Please refrain from ever responding to any more of my posts.

Thank you, Dave.

Well, well well. Mr superior can dole it out but doesn't like it coming back. No surprise there then. After your offensive comments in the NGK spark plug thread - yes you were offensive when you called me "comically ignorant" - but I chose not to respond. However, it seems you are unable to keep your mouth shut and so you come back with more vitriol - "ignorant ill educated people" - in answer to Ribol's comments which are perfectly lucid and accurate. It is you whose ignorance vastly exceeds your intellect.

Perhaps you were looking in the mirror when you wrote this little gem? "However superior you arrogantly feel your knowledge is" perfectly sums you up. As for your demand of Ribol to not respond to your posts, it seems perfectly clear to me that your self-importance is off the scale. Clearly you are unable to grasp the concept of a 'forum' - "a meeting or medium where ideas and views(my emphasis) on a particular issue can be exchanged" - and this 'forum' is called Pistonheads, not an outlet for Chim Pong Ass's personal diatribes.