Aftermarket ECUs
Discussion
After finally getting fed up with electrical problems I have finally decided to bite the bullet and replace the wiring harness and ECU.
I have done a bit of research reading threads on here and have come to the conclusion that MBE, Canems and emerald are all comparable and ms2 is not such good quality, all I am trying to do is make the car more reliable in the long term.
Do all the above have just a one year guarantee.
The three main players in the market all good reputations and are all about 3 hours drive from me but I may have a closer alternative for the Emerald install.
Your thoughts please gentleman.
I have done a bit of research reading threads on here and have come to the conclusion that MBE, Canems and emerald are all comparable and ms2 is not such good quality, all I am trying to do is make the car more reliable in the long term.
Do all the above have just a one year guarantee.
The three main players in the market all good reputations and are all about 3 hours drive from me but I may have a closer alternative for the Emerald install.
Your thoughts please gentleman.
The problem you have here Trev is people can only go by their experience and not Many of us have experience of more than one of these after market Ecu.
I chose MBE and from the evidence I've seen and heard I'm very pleased I did and that's all I can say.
It's also the only ECU that is type approved for TVR. Makes very little difference in the real world.
It's important to check that other installs include any and all dyno/ rolling road/ road mapping to fine tune the system.
That can get rather expensive going back and forth to mappers for tweaks etc so although Powers install is expensive it's taking into account the real work involved in getting your map spot on which takes a number of attempts at different starting temps etc etc. Not always but if you want the best mapping it's really important to leave the car with installers to test it over these different conditions, Dom and Jason mapped mine on the rolling road and about 3 different road driven sessions to iron out slight differences.
That was almost two years ago and it's been excellent. After about 18 months I took it back for a check over and had a few adjustments done but that took minutes and it's just very consistent and does exactly what it's supposed to do at all times in any weather. Brilliant
I chose MBE and from the evidence I've seen and heard I'm very pleased I did and that's all I can say.
It's also the only ECU that is type approved for TVR. Makes very little difference in the real world.
It's important to check that other installs include any and all dyno/ rolling road/ road mapping to fine tune the system.
That can get rather expensive going back and forth to mappers for tweaks etc so although Powers install is expensive it's taking into account the real work involved in getting your map spot on which takes a number of attempts at different starting temps etc etc. Not always but if you want the best mapping it's really important to leave the car with installers to test it over these different conditions, Dom and Jason mapped mine on the rolling road and about 3 different road driven sessions to iron out slight differences.
That was almost two years ago and it's been excellent. After about 18 months I took it back for a check over and had a few adjustments done but that took minutes and it's just very consistent and does exactly what it's supposed to do at all times in any weather. Brilliant
Jools recently installed an Emerald in my car. It works well. I have three different maps, changeable on the go at the touch of a switch. Very useful if you, like me, have a turbo.
Anything can be mapped, it comes with the software that runs in Windows on a laptop. I watched Jools adjusting my hot idle to get it running smoothly.
The ECU you choose should be one that you can get adjusted locally, unless you know what you are doing, as any system is only as good as he who maps it.
I get 23 mpg from a 4.6 turbo, and it drives very smoothly. My maps are set at 315 bhp, 370 bhp and 395 bhp - the Emerald, combined with an electronic bleed valve, has allowed me to control the level of boost and so protect the engine/drive train, as well as making my cruising map road-friendly.
Edited to add - Jools is based just off junction 29 of the M1 at Chesterfield, in the north Midlands.
Anything can be mapped, it comes with the software that runs in Windows on a laptop. I watched Jools adjusting my hot idle to get it running smoothly.
The ECU you choose should be one that you can get adjusted locally, unless you know what you are doing, as any system is only as good as he who maps it.
I get 23 mpg from a 4.6 turbo, and it drives very smoothly. My maps are set at 315 bhp, 370 bhp and 395 bhp - the Emerald, combined with an electronic bleed valve, has allowed me to control the level of boost and so protect the engine/drive train, as well as making my cruising map road-friendly.
Edited to add - Jools is based just off junction 29 of the M1 at Chesterfield, in the north Midlands.
Edited by QBee on Wednesday 28th June 02:44
Edited by QBee on Wednesday 28th June 02:47
QBee said:
The ECU you choose should be one that you can get adjusted locally, unless you know what you are doing, as any system is only as good as he who maps it.
Exactly. I don't think megasquirt is unreliable as such, properly built, set-up and mapped I believe it is just as good as any of the other options. I suppose that it has a poorer reputation due to the number of DIY installs and resulting issues, compared to professionally installed systems.
I went the DIY megasquirt route largely because I couldn't find a local installer. Started with a plug in and play fuel only kit from V8D and then added coilpacks later. Its a steep learning curve, but definitely doable.
The main problem now is that I don't seem to be able to drive the car with out logging the ECU data and continually tweeking the Map. I need to just leave it alone and enjoy the car!
Who was the first to move into after market Ecu and away from CUX on our Chims... he was a good man that's all I know.
How long have have these been available then. Before 2006/7 obviously ?
If you really want to enjoy the car as a modern alternative for the odd or regular commute or just so it's more reliable on any occasion all these systems are a breath of fresh air and remove myth, duff running and terrible economy figures if done correctly.
For me the most obvious difference is simply starting the car, hot or cold it costs less to do.
My urban driving involving cold starts and then plenty of hot ones and this is where it's so much better.
Recently I've not used the car for many days at a time so it's usually a cold start then a 20 min run then off for days again. That used to drink fuel and was very noticeable how fast the fuel gauge would plummet once below 1/2 tank from these short runs.
It's now more noticeable how I can do starts/stops for days on less than 1/2 tank.
It feels like I've saved hundreds of pounds on fuel alone which is an exaggeration but it really does seem like that, not on long constant journeys so much but stop start and especially cold it runs way more efficiently.
All the main options come with a base map as mentioned earlier so unless your going for a highly tuned engine spec shouldn't take much mapping to suit your particular engine.
If you can afford it it's well worth the investment in both piece of mind and future service and fuel costs. Eventually it will pay for itself but from a personal perspective worth its weight in gold as the pleasure it brings is way behind it's finantual cost.
Goodluck.
How long have have these been available then. Before 2006/7 obviously ?
If you really want to enjoy the car as a modern alternative for the odd or regular commute or just so it's more reliable on any occasion all these systems are a breath of fresh air and remove myth, duff running and terrible economy figures if done correctly.
For me the most obvious difference is simply starting the car, hot or cold it costs less to do.
My urban driving involving cold starts and then plenty of hot ones and this is where it's so much better.
Recently I've not used the car for many days at a time so it's usually a cold start then a 20 min run then off for days again. That used to drink fuel and was very noticeable how fast the fuel gauge would plummet once below 1/2 tank from these short runs.
It's now more noticeable how I can do starts/stops for days on less than 1/2 tank.
It feels like I've saved hundreds of pounds on fuel alone which is an exaggeration but it really does seem like that, not on long constant journeys so much but stop start and especially cold it runs way more efficiently.
All the main options come with a base map as mentioned earlier so unless your going for a highly tuned engine spec shouldn't take much mapping to suit your particular engine.
If you can afford it it's well worth the investment in both piece of mind and future service and fuel costs. Eventually it will pay for itself but from a personal perspective worth its weight in gold as the pleasure it brings is way behind it's finantual cost.
Goodluck.
There's very little to separate the three you've mentioned, fundamentally they all offer the same batch fired injection with wasted spark, as such they are all just giving you early 1990's engine management technology. The only reason this old technology is of benefit on a mid 1990's TVR Chimaera is because TVR gave the car 1980's engine management technology in the first place, the 14CUX & distributor system was already 10 years behind the times when the car was new.
An aftermarket ECU gives user access to make alterations to the fuel and ignition calibration where the 14CUX makes changes to the fueling tricky and offers no option to tune the ignition side, fitting an aftermarket ECU also presents the opportunity to renew some of the associated wiring although you could do the same with the existing 14CUX system.
Other than being very out of date and hard to map there's fundamentally nothing wrong with the 14CUX and distributor setup TVR gave the car, if its working correctly there's absolutely no reason why the car shouldn't drive very nicely on it indeed. The problems come when something isn't functioning within tolerance and a general lack of knowledge and skill in troubleshooting issues, the truth is if you had a good auto electrician go through your car who also understands the 14CUX system any faults you're currently suffering could be corrected, the problem is finding such a guy is very hard indeed.
So when you really boil it down it's often lack of knowledge and skill that pushes people towards these aftermarket ECUs, you will enjoy efficiency improvements from 3D ignition but as the 14CUX already does a reasonable job of managing the fuel side gains in this area are never going to be earth shattering. Don't expect an aftermarket ECU to give you huge power gains because it won't, assuming the system is properly mapped you can however expect better throttle response and improvements in petrol fuel economy in the order of 15%.
But don't expect to recover your costs in fuel savings, with most professionally fitted aftermarket ECU installations being anything from £2500 to £3,000 and savings being in the order of £0.03p a mile at best, you'd need to drive some 100,000 miles before you got a return on your investment! If you do decide an aftermarket ECU is for you and you'd also like massively better fuel economy with no compromises an interesting option is the Canems Dual Fuel ECU I run, this system basically gives you everything an Emerald or MBE does but adds the option to run LPG.
The Canems Dual Fuel ECU is only £200 more expensive than the Canems petrol only ECU and you don't need to activate the LPG element straight away, and in price terms its comparable with a petrol only MBE. With nothing to really separate the aftermarket systems we're discussing here, only the Canems Dual Fuel ECU offers something truly different. If you did choose this system at a later date after you've enjoyed all the same benefits it offers on petrol as an MBE, Emerald or petrol only Canems system you've now got the option of activating a feature that will truly change the way you use your TVR.
With the addition of some tanks, pipework, vaporiser and LPG injectors your Chimaera will now average the petrol equivalent 45-55mpg without any loss of performance or drivability, in fact the car not only becomes massively more economical is will actually idle and drive even nicer below 2,000rpm on gas than it ever will on petrol. The Canems Dual Fuel ECU is the only option that does something truly different and its the only option that will actually pay for itself in a realistic time frame, it gives you all the benefits of the other suspects but just adds the option at a later date to turn your heavy drinking V8 TVR into something with Nissan Micra fuel economy.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=12...
I've been running the Canems system since 2012, the first year I ran it petrol only before activating the LPG side, so for more than four years the car has been dual fuel. That's four very happy years of 45-55mpg in the sweetest driving Chimaera you could ever wish for, and unlike all the petrol only ECU options it's the only system that's actually paid for itself in fuel savings making it a completely free engine management system upgrade.
If you like the sound of that then all you've initially got to find is an extra £200 for the Canems Dual Fuel ECU over it's petrol only version, and that's still cheaper than the more expensive petrol only options. Drive the car on petrol only for a year or so to enjoy all the same benefits on petrol as you would on an Emerald, MBE or petrol only Canems.. then activate the dual fuel feature to give yourself 45-55mpg which I guarantee you will transform the way you view using your TVR from an occasional toy to car you'll not think twice about using on a daily basis.
Just last week I filled up in Plymouth at £0.45p a litre when right next door Tescos was selling the cheapest petrol in the area at £1.12p per litre so the calculation looks like this.... £1.12p divided by £0.45p = 2.49 multiplied by my LPG fuel economy of 22.34mpg = 55.60mpg (petrol cost equivalent)
I started by saying all these aftermarket ECUs offer the same thing, but that's not strictly true, because one option will give you all the same benefits on petrol as an MBE, Emerald ect ect but will also give you a 55mpg TVR and will end up paying for itself. Why wouldn't you choose the only option that gives you exactly the same benefits as all the others but also adds something groundbreaking that will pay for itself and completely changes the way you use your TVR?
An aftermarket ECU gives user access to make alterations to the fuel and ignition calibration where the 14CUX makes changes to the fueling tricky and offers no option to tune the ignition side, fitting an aftermarket ECU also presents the opportunity to renew some of the associated wiring although you could do the same with the existing 14CUX system.
Other than being very out of date and hard to map there's fundamentally nothing wrong with the 14CUX and distributor setup TVR gave the car, if its working correctly there's absolutely no reason why the car shouldn't drive very nicely on it indeed. The problems come when something isn't functioning within tolerance and a general lack of knowledge and skill in troubleshooting issues, the truth is if you had a good auto electrician go through your car who also understands the 14CUX system any faults you're currently suffering could be corrected, the problem is finding such a guy is very hard indeed.
So when you really boil it down it's often lack of knowledge and skill that pushes people towards these aftermarket ECUs, you will enjoy efficiency improvements from 3D ignition but as the 14CUX already does a reasonable job of managing the fuel side gains in this area are never going to be earth shattering. Don't expect an aftermarket ECU to give you huge power gains because it won't, assuming the system is properly mapped you can however expect better throttle response and improvements in petrol fuel economy in the order of 15%.
But don't expect to recover your costs in fuel savings, with most professionally fitted aftermarket ECU installations being anything from £2500 to £3,000 and savings being in the order of £0.03p a mile at best, you'd need to drive some 100,000 miles before you got a return on your investment! If you do decide an aftermarket ECU is for you and you'd also like massively better fuel economy with no compromises an interesting option is the Canems Dual Fuel ECU I run, this system basically gives you everything an Emerald or MBE does but adds the option to run LPG.
The Canems Dual Fuel ECU is only £200 more expensive than the Canems petrol only ECU and you don't need to activate the LPG element straight away, and in price terms its comparable with a petrol only MBE. With nothing to really separate the aftermarket systems we're discussing here, only the Canems Dual Fuel ECU offers something truly different. If you did choose this system at a later date after you've enjoyed all the same benefits it offers on petrol as an MBE, Emerald or petrol only Canems system you've now got the option of activating a feature that will truly change the way you use your TVR.
With the addition of some tanks, pipework, vaporiser and LPG injectors your Chimaera will now average the petrol equivalent 45-55mpg without any loss of performance or drivability, in fact the car not only becomes massively more economical is will actually idle and drive even nicer below 2,000rpm on gas than it ever will on petrol. The Canems Dual Fuel ECU is the only option that does something truly different and its the only option that will actually pay for itself in a realistic time frame, it gives you all the benefits of the other suspects but just adds the option at a later date to turn your heavy drinking V8 TVR into something with Nissan Micra fuel economy.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=12...
I've been running the Canems system since 2012, the first year I ran it petrol only before activating the LPG side, so for more than four years the car has been dual fuel. That's four very happy years of 45-55mpg in the sweetest driving Chimaera you could ever wish for, and unlike all the petrol only ECU options it's the only system that's actually paid for itself in fuel savings making it a completely free engine management system upgrade.
If you like the sound of that then all you've initially got to find is an extra £200 for the Canems Dual Fuel ECU over it's petrol only version, and that's still cheaper than the more expensive petrol only options. Drive the car on petrol only for a year or so to enjoy all the same benefits on petrol as you would on an Emerald, MBE or petrol only Canems.. then activate the dual fuel feature to give yourself 45-55mpg which I guarantee you will transform the way you view using your TVR from an occasional toy to car you'll not think twice about using on a daily basis.
Just last week I filled up in Plymouth at £0.45p a litre when right next door Tescos was selling the cheapest petrol in the area at £1.12p per litre so the calculation looks like this.... £1.12p divided by £0.45p = 2.49 multiplied by my LPG fuel economy of 22.34mpg = 55.60mpg (petrol cost equivalent)
I started by saying all these aftermarket ECUs offer the same thing, but that's not strictly true, because one option will give you all the same benefits on petrol as an MBE, Emerald ect ect but will also give you a 55mpg TVR and will end up paying for itself. Why wouldn't you choose the only option that gives you exactly the same benefits as all the others but also adds something groundbreaking that will pay for itself and completely changes the way you use your TVR?
Having had an Emerald for 8 years and since removed it and replaced with an upgraded OEM ECU, I would thoroghly recommend talking to a real expert on the subject. The nicest man in TVR tuning (and most experienced), Mr Mark Adams http://www.tornadosystems.com/
A salesman he is not, but he will tell you all of the facts and allow you to make your own decision with all of the right knowledge
A salesman he is not, but he will tell you all of the facts and allow you to make your own decision with all of the right knowledge
I have also been thinking about switching the ECU to something more modern, but being out here my only option really is a DIY route as I can't really bring the car back to the UK.
It seems then that the only option I have is Megasquirt, where all the components can be sent over, a pre wired loom is available and that there is also a remote tuning option with TeamViewer. We have a rolling road near me which is not expensive so a remote tuning session while there seems doable.
I have spent some time getting the 14cux optimized though and running Stevesprint's most recent map on my green tuned car, with the ACM tweaked to the correct voltage, has actually created some impressive results.
I have a car that is in the main, extremely smooth with only a hint of shunting at low revs, but nothing entirely unacceptable.
The car is indeed civilized but this had meant that all the electrical components are spot on, running no extenders, HT leads in good condition and regularly changing sparks (BPR6ES) , and upgrading all the engine earths.
I also have a car that even though we are now into the late 30s temp wise, the temp gauge (rover sender) never reads past the point where the fans come on.
Actually even in standstill traffic with the ac on, the needle seems as if it is stuck at 92 DEGREES,
both fans come on with the ac and it seems that the added heat from the condenser is handled quite well (shorting the sender wire has the needle going to the right, so the guage works).
My cooling system is regularly checked for air locks and fluid loss and all I can say that in these temperatures this car performs brilliantly.
The point I am trying to make is with the car running as I have it now, this is my case for an aftermarket ECU?
I would like the car to feel less lumpy at idle (it's a HC so bumpy cam), to have no shunting whatsoever at in town dawdling speeds, be able to deal with the added load of the ac when it is on and then perhaps making adjustments to the map when the ac is on. (my ac is retrofit and does not go through the ECU).
Or just leave it as is?
It seems then that the only option I have is Megasquirt, where all the components can be sent over, a pre wired loom is available and that there is also a remote tuning option with TeamViewer. We have a rolling road near me which is not expensive so a remote tuning session while there seems doable.
I have spent some time getting the 14cux optimized though and running Stevesprint's most recent map on my green tuned car, with the ACM tweaked to the correct voltage, has actually created some impressive results.
I have a car that is in the main, extremely smooth with only a hint of shunting at low revs, but nothing entirely unacceptable.
The car is indeed civilized but this had meant that all the electrical components are spot on, running no extenders, HT leads in good condition and regularly changing sparks (BPR6ES) , and upgrading all the engine earths.
I also have a car that even though we are now into the late 30s temp wise, the temp gauge (rover sender) never reads past the point where the fans come on.
Actually even in standstill traffic with the ac on, the needle seems as if it is stuck at 92 DEGREES,
both fans come on with the ac and it seems that the added heat from the condenser is handled quite well (shorting the sender wire has the needle going to the right, so the guage works).
My cooling system is regularly checked for air locks and fluid loss and all I can say that in these temperatures this car performs brilliantly.
The point I am trying to make is with the car running as I have it now, this is my case for an aftermarket ECU?
I would like the car to feel less lumpy at idle (it's a HC so bumpy cam), to have no shunting whatsoever at in town dawdling speeds, be able to deal with the added load of the ac when it is on and then perhaps making adjustments to the map when the ac is on. (my ac is retrofit and does not go through the ECU).
Or just leave it as is?
motul1974 said:
Speaking of the OEM Gems system Nick.....hows yours going and do you think Sprint will ever get around to publishing your article?
...living it hope!
Adrian
Hi Adrian! The GEMS system is working extremely well now; the car is absolutely stunning to drive. It's almost weirdly smooth even at walking pace in 5th - I'm well pleased with it!...living it hope!
Adrian
Regarding the article, I have been reliably told that it will be in the next issue of Sprint (July) so hopefully you'll see it soon
jazzdude said:
I would like the car to feel less lumpy at idle (it's a HC so bumpy cam), to have no shunting whatsoever at in town dawdling speeds, be able to deal with the added load of the ac when it is on and then perhaps making adjustments to the map when the ac is on. (my ac is retrofit and does not go through the ECU).
Or just leave it as is?
What ignition timing figure are you running at idle?Or just leave it as is?
Another Canems convert here. The boys at Lloyds supplied, installed mapped and generally set up the whole thing over a 3 week period.
They were aware that I live 120 miles away, so repeat visits wasn't an option. Five months and 2000 miles in and I'm really happy. Car is smooth, no shunting and predictable in terms of start up, warm up and general drivability. Yes, there is a modest power increase and a small fuel economy gain but these weren't the primary reasons for installation.
Future proofing and reliability were the main objectives and to that end the box is ticked. A recent 1400 mile Scottish trip and the car didn't miss a beat.
It's not cheap but if the car's a keeper, it's money well spent. All IMHO, of course.
They were aware that I live 120 miles away, so repeat visits wasn't an option. Five months and 2000 miles in and I'm really happy. Car is smooth, no shunting and predictable in terms of start up, warm up and general drivability. Yes, there is a modest power increase and a small fuel economy gain but these weren't the primary reasons for installation.
Future proofing and reliability were the main objectives and to that end the box is ticked. A recent 1400 mile Scottish trip and the car didn't miss a beat.
It's not cheap but if the car's a keeper, it's money well spent. All IMHO, of course.
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