Discussion
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons - assuming we keep our car as a predominantly Road toy, when do we say our engine is over powering the chassis?..... What point do the required mods start to ruin the delicate balance of POWER v CHASSIS poise???
Bigger heavier brakes, wheels. Extreme TORQUE ruining a wet weather blast?.....there must be a perceived 'sweet spot'???
Bigger heavier brakes, wheels. Extreme TORQUE ruining a wet weather blast?.....there must be a perceived 'sweet spot'???
For me that sweet spot comes from self-control of the right foot - i.e. Driving to the conditions.
And using the car on track to explore beyond 70mph and some.
And finally, I have recently given effectively myself three cars , with a 3 position map switch on my Emerald ECU. This controls the amount of turbo boost I add at the touch of a switch. In last night's pouring rain it allowed me to virtually delete the turbo, making progress so much safer. On the track it allows me to dial in considerably more power and torque than any normally aspirated Chimaera. It's taken me five years to get to this, and I love it.
And using the car on track to explore beyond 70mph and some.
And finally, I have recently given effectively myself three cars , with a 3 position map switch on my Emerald ECU. This controls the amount of turbo boost I add at the touch of a switch. In last night's pouring rain it allowed me to virtually delete the turbo, making progress so much safer. On the track it allows me to dial in considerably more power and torque than any normally aspirated Chimaera. It's taken me five years to get to this, and I love it.
That's like the perfect lap, it doesn't exist 
Great question.
Power to weight ratio,,, that's part of it but power to grip ratio might be a better way to look at it.
Until I put grippy soft tyre's on the car it was a death trap at any speed and wheel spin in the rain was imminent and allways possible and more than likely to happen at any time regardless of shocks or geo, so my 300 Bhp and 350 lb torque car felt way over powered. Even in the dry on old or just hard tyre's wheel spin was possible in 1st to 3rd gear.
Changing the tyre's has done two thinks to the car.
Made that power manageable and made the car more comfortable over bumps.
So forgetting about comfort and concentrating on performance,,, although they are inter linked
The tyre's have changed its characteristics hugely, it takes bumps rather than skips over them through corners,,, rather important id say, stops better on the brakes, and I can floor it in 1st gear at 5 mph and your off like a nutter with little or no wheel spin.
It's much much safer to use its available power, my experiments have shown they also allow nippy fast cornering around roundabouts,,, it's really a fun car as you can chuck it about like a go cart.
I think my point is it's all down to grip levels and now I have more grip I could handle a bit more power.
If you have the best sticky tyre's then about 450/500 Bhp and about 400 torques would push the best shocks and certainly the chassis to there limits without significant mods, roll hoop being the bare minimal to gain some ridgitity or the car would flex to much and cause unbalanced cornering IMHO
The thing is
If you go to race tracks then even 400 Bhp doesn't feel like to much once you get in a straight line, torque isn't used other than off tight corners in say third gear but most the time your flat chat so only want Bhp and five laps in feels slow. You get used to all power unless it's to much for the cars suspension / chassis / braking system.
For a road car your dealing with terrible terrain at times with big deep bumps etc that can chuck a light car clean off so choosing a power figure that's safe is virtually impossible unless you make it heavier which in a Tvr is sacrilege
I'd say the chassis with a roll hoop can take 500 Bhp and 420 lb torques fairly easily if you have high quality shocks on.
If you could afford the best of everything these numbers could go way higher I'd say. Strong little cars really.
Great question.
Power to weight ratio,,, that's part of it but power to grip ratio might be a better way to look at it.
Until I put grippy soft tyre's on the car it was a death trap at any speed and wheel spin in the rain was imminent and allways possible and more than likely to happen at any time regardless of shocks or geo, so my 300 Bhp and 350 lb torque car felt way over powered. Even in the dry on old or just hard tyre's wheel spin was possible in 1st to 3rd gear.
Changing the tyre's has done two thinks to the car.
Made that power manageable and made the car more comfortable over bumps.
So forgetting about comfort and concentrating on performance,,, although they are inter linked
The tyre's have changed its characteristics hugely, it takes bumps rather than skips over them through corners,,, rather important id say, stops better on the brakes, and I can floor it in 1st gear at 5 mph and your off like a nutter with little or no wheel spin.
It's much much safer to use its available power, my experiments have shown they also allow nippy fast cornering around roundabouts,,, it's really a fun car as you can chuck it about like a go cart.
I think my point is it's all down to grip levels and now I have more grip I could handle a bit more power.
If you have the best sticky tyre's then about 450/500 Bhp and about 400 torques would push the best shocks and certainly the chassis to there limits without significant mods, roll hoop being the bare minimal to gain some ridgitity or the car would flex to much and cause unbalanced cornering IMHO
The thing is
If you go to race tracks then even 400 Bhp doesn't feel like to much once you get in a straight line, torque isn't used other than off tight corners in say third gear but most the time your flat chat so only want Bhp and five laps in feels slow. You get used to all power unless it's to much for the cars suspension / chassis / braking system.
For a road car your dealing with terrible terrain at times with big deep bumps etc that can chuck a light car clean off so choosing a power figure that's safe is virtually impossible unless you make it heavier which in a Tvr is sacrilege
I'd say the chassis with a roll hoop can take 500 Bhp and 420 lb torques fairly easily if you have high quality shocks on.
If you could afford the best of everything these numbers could go way higher I'd say. Strong little cars really.
500 bhp and 420 torque? Would that not create a little Road terror that you could never really push hard.....not to mention the fear of snapping something in the drive train?
The original Elan, in either standard form or with a few tweaks, that appears to be at the sweet spot from reading or watching the road tests, and although lighter, it's still off our power to weight ratios but they get such great accolades.
It's just my thought process and what makes a car go beyond the ordinary 'great ', and I guess the fact I'm in the process of attempting to create a 'mk4' or v2.1 chimaera, something the factory may of gone on to make if production had continued.
I know everyone will have their own views, just thought it might be an interesting question to ask.
The original Elan, in either standard form or with a few tweaks, that appears to be at the sweet spot from reading or watching the road tests, and although lighter, it's still off our power to weight ratios but they get such great accolades.
It's just my thought process and what makes a car go beyond the ordinary 'great ', and I guess the fact I'm in the process of attempting to create a 'mk4' or v2.1 chimaera, something the factory may of gone on to make if production had continued.
I know everyone will have their own views, just thought it might be an interesting question to ask.
As Alun says, you get used to the power.
And a proper suspension set up makes a world of difference to the handling. Good dampers and springs, and a proper four wheel alignment. And decent tyres.
Mine was fine today on its road map in the pouring rain and the dry. 315 bhp and 395 ft lbs. combined with a sensible right foot. And a Toyo R1Rs.
On track it has 395 bhp and 525 ft lbs. Animal, but predictable. And fast.
I limited mine to under 400 bhp specifically to avoid as much as possible of the breakage risks associated with big turbos running high boost. Mine is mapped to peak at 7.5 psi. I have built a solid low compression engine and have upgraded the injectors, fuel pump and clutch. I am crossing my fingers about the rest, but have bought a complete spare drive shaft with CV joints as an insurance policy.
And a proper suspension set up makes a world of difference to the handling. Good dampers and springs, and a proper four wheel alignment. And decent tyres.
Mine was fine today on its road map in the pouring rain and the dry. 315 bhp and 395 ft lbs. combined with a sensible right foot. And a Toyo R1Rs.
On track it has 395 bhp and 525 ft lbs. Animal, but predictable. And fast.
I limited mine to under 400 bhp specifically to avoid as much as possible of the breakage risks associated with big turbos running high boost. Mine is mapped to peak at 7.5 psi. I have built a solid low compression engine and have upgraded the injectors, fuel pump and clutch. I am crossing my fingers about the rest, but have bought a complete spare drive shaft with CV joints as an insurance policy.
motul1974 said:
500 bhp and 420 torque? Would that not create a little Road terror that you could never really push hard.....not to mention the fear of snapping something in the drive train?
This is down to mechanical sympathy I think. If you have followed those nutters at Shaky doing their drag strip times, you will see that driveshafts break and other problems arise. Plus you are going to vastly shorten the life of all the components. This is not the same as driving a road car though. Invariably you are in a queue of traffic on a nice road bumbling along at 40-45mph (seems to be the new national speed limit for the C4 Picasso, Scenic, 308, Jazz) and an opportunity to overtake comes up. You floor it (frustration at being held up) and off you go. The car does not jump out of line or misbehave as you are already rolling at 45mph and the drive train copes perfectly.
As for torque, I've become a lazy t*** and when touring around on my hols, found myself in 5th gear at 1,200 rpm. Can't be ar*ed changing gear so press the pedal instead. Big numbers can work both ways IMHO.
Drag racing vastly shortening life of components,,, what about a Turbo then!!
I don't disagree by the way. Just find that a strange comment considering your doing that every time you employ your Turbo power are you not!!!
Singling out drag racing doesn't make sense to me and singling out highly tuned cars might be more closer to the truth. Surely you hoofing it at 2500 revs and drawing some 500 hp is destroying your bores pistons and all safe tolerances sooner or later.
Drag racing can break drive shafts and damage the whole road train over time but one or two goes a year and changing at 5500 revs is not as extreme as it might seem.
Putting all that torque and power and heat through it on a daily basis can't do it any good. The heat alone created in the gearbox accelerating these Turbo cars is damaging. Mines never got as hot as a Turbo cars gearbox after a very short time accelerating hard. Red hot!!!
I have found the Tvr sweet spot by the way. It's exactly where it should be 300 Bhp and 345 torques, the car can last a long time with that kind of power and as I regularly point out 12.603 1/4 mile don't lie. I'd hazard an educated drivers guess I'd be faster on all but long straight roads too as I can control the power and you can not. Try hoofing 500 hp down a lane in a Tiv, in your dreams mate,, but I can floor my Chim and it just about copes with with available grip,, yours will not though will it. Over engineeered cars have serious drawbacks in a number of scenarios and it can not be argued against.
Drag racing will take its toll that pretty obvious but a few goes with your mates doesn't really justify the slating on mechanical parts it gets. You don't have to dump the clutch like your on a dirt bike if you don't want to.
Drive shafts snap because there's looseness in the line causing snatch or your putting to much power through them. My 300 Bhp,is perfect for a road car, I never really need it and the 345 torques have pulled me to rocket speed without needing to scream the engine for Bhp anyway, that's uncouth
Frankly flat out accelerating I'm not doing anything like as much damage drag racing as you are doing 100 mph in 5th gear and flooring it for 10 seconds on a mundane motorway and putting huge power through the engine, or do I need more engine education!
Happy to be corrected
Also anyone that says trackdays are less damaging to mechanical components wants to think that one again. 10 seconds accelerating or 20 minutes flat out and asking of every part of the car. What's a drive shaft compared to all the sum of parts your risking there. I don't get that at all.
It's the clock people don't like about drag racing
I don't disagree by the way. Just find that a strange comment considering your doing that every time you employ your Turbo power are you not!!!
Singling out drag racing doesn't make sense to me and singling out highly tuned cars might be more closer to the truth. Surely you hoofing it at 2500 revs and drawing some 500 hp is destroying your bores pistons and all safe tolerances sooner or later.
Drag racing can break drive shafts and damage the whole road train over time but one or two goes a year and changing at 5500 revs is not as extreme as it might seem.
Putting all that torque and power and heat through it on a daily basis can't do it any good. The heat alone created in the gearbox accelerating these Turbo cars is damaging. Mines never got as hot as a Turbo cars gearbox after a very short time accelerating hard. Red hot!!!
I have found the Tvr sweet spot by the way. It's exactly where it should be 300 Bhp and 345 torques, the car can last a long time with that kind of power and as I regularly point out 12.603 1/4 mile don't lie. I'd hazard an educated drivers guess I'd be faster on all but long straight roads too as I can control the power and you can not. Try hoofing 500 hp down a lane in a Tiv, in your dreams mate,, but I can floor my Chim and it just about copes with with available grip,, yours will not though will it. Over engineeered cars have serious drawbacks in a number of scenarios and it can not be argued against.
Drag racing will take its toll that pretty obvious but a few goes with your mates doesn't really justify the slating on mechanical parts it gets. You don't have to dump the clutch like your on a dirt bike if you don't want to.
Drive shafts snap because there's looseness in the line causing snatch or your putting to much power through them. My 300 Bhp,is perfect for a road car, I never really need it and the 345 torques have pulled me to rocket speed without needing to scream the engine for Bhp anyway, that's uncouth
Frankly flat out accelerating I'm not doing anything like as much damage drag racing as you are doing 100 mph in 5th gear and flooring it for 10 seconds on a mundane motorway and putting huge power through the engine, or do I need more engine education!
Happy to be corrected
Also anyone that says trackdays are less damaging to mechanical components wants to think that one again. 10 seconds accelerating or 20 minutes flat out and asking of every part of the car. What's a drive shaft compared to all the sum of parts your risking there. I don't get that at all.
It's the clock people don't like about drag racing
Edited by Classic Chim on Tuesday 25th July 15:43
Edited by Classic Chim on Tuesday 25th July 15:44
Ah ha, you've missed the point with the turbo, methinks, pal.
If you are bumbling along at 40-50 behind the coffin dodgers and you floor it the power doesn't suddenly hit in the same way that moving your left foot sideways off the clutch pedal does on the strip. Just check the graph - not very clear unless you click on it and open it up, Dom's a cheapskate - and you can see that below 2,500 rpm there is hardly enough power to move the car. Then as it all winds up, the power comes on in a safe controlled way. Handbrake (in the passenger seat) may disagree but you just don't get 350 bhp at the traffic light grand prix. But, overtaking with 3,000 rpm and then you're off and this is exactly what I wanted when I chose this route.
As for engine longevity, we'll have to wait and see but having read that some of those N/A engine rebuilds are lasting less than 20,000 miles, does make you wonder.....
Thumbsnap not playing just now, will try again later.
If you are bumbling along at 40-50 behind the coffin dodgers and you floor it the power doesn't suddenly hit in the same way that moving your left foot sideways off the clutch pedal does on the strip. Just check the graph - not very clear unless you click on it and open it up, Dom's a cheapskate - and you can see that below 2,500 rpm there is hardly enough power to move the car. Then as it all winds up, the power comes on in a safe controlled way. Handbrake (in the passenger seat) may disagree but you just don't get 350 bhp at the traffic light grand prix. But, overtaking with 3,000 rpm and then you're off and this is exactly what I wanted when I chose this route.
As for engine longevity, we'll have to wait and see but having read that some of those N/A engine rebuilds are lasting less than 20,000 miles, does make you wonder.....
Thumbsnap not playing just now, will try again later.
Edited by N7GTX on Tuesday 25th July 18:56
motul1974 said:
500 bhp and 420 torque? Would that not create a little Road terror that you could never really push hard.....not to mention the fear of snapping something in the drive train?
Yes, it will break things. I built mine (573hp/610lb torque) with that in mind so a twin plate clutch, TKO600 gearbox and Dave Mac driveshafts. Also the engine was purpose built low compression. So no problems here. Road terror? Adjustable boost via buttons on steering wheel and the realisation that the throttle can move in both directions. 
Edited by macdeb on Tuesday 25th July 19:15
Being fair most those engines have had a hard life on track but I think that's where I'm getting this from. I love these and your Turbo Iain but longevity hasn't been proven that I'm aware of.
Wheel spin removes a large chunk of that hp off the line and also slows you if you get to much so other than the split second it bites its not that bad it seems to me.
Ironically the low power at 1000/1500 revs on these engines is something I've been thinking of trying to utilise more, just ride off with no slip then floor it as when I'm moving say 5 mph I can floor it without wheel spin. So a very different technique from many who just floor everything and lunge through first gear to second in one movement. If it hooks up very fast but not the only way to skin that cat.
Have you had a go at drag racing. The burn out is the worst part if you ask me. Barely makes a difference either some days.
I'm not for one minute suggesting racing won't cause serious wear but given some common sense I think you could do drag racing without expecting to rebuild your car every 6 months. That's for hardcore tuned cars not safeish standard cars.
The drive shaft failures have all been on tuned cars not standard ones that im aware of.
They've just now found their newest weak link, that's not the fault of drag racing but owners not upgrading shafts to suit power or having old worn uj's or diff. Mechanical failure brought on by lack of maintenance for race application and in most cases because the drivers are causing the damage with brutal starting technique. It's so easy to go down the floor it and hope route and sometimes is demon but with practice and a calm head I'm hoping someday I can show we can do fast times without so much initial violence. Racing starts are about restricting wheel spin surely!
My point earlier was simply I can never subject my engine to the punishment you can as I havnt enough power to do that level of damage at anytime forgetting drag racing for a second.
Grass roots Motorsport is not F1 , I'm just trying to promote racing that doesn't have to cost the earth if your sensible and didn't have to break drive shafts either. Barry has set the fastest times on standard shafts but then he doesn't do wheelspin and hadn't broke one yet. The odd Turbo seal but then he's trying to push the envelope, normal. This drive shaft thing is blown out of proportion unless your Derek on Super tyre's and huge tuning,,
Road based cars well maintained should handle a bit of drag fun no problem in my mind.
Tuned cars, different game entirely.
Which is why I now go back to the sweet spot. I'm def in it and the car can cope,,, mostly.
It's already far to fast for the o/e brakes and without bigger brakes would be ill matched.
This sweet spot does include brake upgrades because it's not much fun having a fast car that doesn't stop. With big brakes the car does feel more competent and able to handle more power but overall the cars getting overloaded and driver can not keep up if you go too far.
Some bloke who builds these engines and especially the speed six and AJP to huge power levels has a habit of telling the owners when they pick the cars up
Enjoy but don't kill yourself.
He means every word and I'm sure he probably mentioned similar to you buddy.
Qbee has all this power but for his own intelligent reasons and likes to test that power on track which is about the only place a Tvr can use its full power safely. I doubt he trusts it quite the same on the open roads which is why I think it becomes pointless to have excessive power in a road car.
Why would you produce a GP bike for sale to the public to use on public roads. Insane speed in totally the wrong environment that you'll probably never be able to use properly anyway.
Fools gold
I'm just bored mate. Devils advocate to promote debate.
Wheel spin removes a large chunk of that hp off the line and also slows you if you get to much so other than the split second it bites its not that bad it seems to me.
Ironically the low power at 1000/1500 revs on these engines is something I've been thinking of trying to utilise more, just ride off with no slip then floor it as when I'm moving say 5 mph I can floor it without wheel spin. So a very different technique from many who just floor everything and lunge through first gear to second in one movement. If it hooks up very fast but not the only way to skin that cat.
Have you had a go at drag racing. The burn out is the worst part if you ask me. Barely makes a difference either some days.
I'm not for one minute suggesting racing won't cause serious wear but given some common sense I think you could do drag racing without expecting to rebuild your car every 6 months. That's for hardcore tuned cars not safeish standard cars.
The drive shaft failures have all been on tuned cars not standard ones that im aware of.
They've just now found their newest weak link, that's not the fault of drag racing but owners not upgrading shafts to suit power or having old worn uj's or diff. Mechanical failure brought on by lack of maintenance for race application and in most cases because the drivers are causing the damage with brutal starting technique. It's so easy to go down the floor it and hope route and sometimes is demon but with practice and a calm head I'm hoping someday I can show we can do fast times without so much initial violence. Racing starts are about restricting wheel spin surely!
My point earlier was simply I can never subject my engine to the punishment you can as I havnt enough power to do that level of damage at anytime forgetting drag racing for a second.
Grass roots Motorsport is not F1 , I'm just trying to promote racing that doesn't have to cost the earth if your sensible and didn't have to break drive shafts either. Barry has set the fastest times on standard shafts but then he doesn't do wheelspin and hadn't broke one yet. The odd Turbo seal but then he's trying to push the envelope, normal. This drive shaft thing is blown out of proportion unless your Derek on Super tyre's and huge tuning,,
Road based cars well maintained should handle a bit of drag fun no problem in my mind.
Tuned cars, different game entirely.
Which is why I now go back to the sweet spot. I'm def in it and the car can cope,,, mostly.
It's already far to fast for the o/e brakes and without bigger brakes would be ill matched.
This sweet spot does include brake upgrades because it's not much fun having a fast car that doesn't stop. With big brakes the car does feel more competent and able to handle more power but overall the cars getting overloaded and driver can not keep up if you go too far.
Some bloke who builds these engines and especially the speed six and AJP to huge power levels has a habit of telling the owners when they pick the cars up
Enjoy but don't kill yourself.
He means every word and I'm sure he probably mentioned similar to you buddy.
Qbee has all this power but for his own intelligent reasons and likes to test that power on track which is about the only place a Tvr can use its full power safely. I doubt he trusts it quite the same on the open roads which is why I think it becomes pointless to have excessive power in a road car.
Why would you produce a GP bike for sale to the public to use on public roads. Insane speed in totally the wrong environment that you'll probably never be able to use properly anyway.
Fools gold
I'm just bored mate. Devils advocate to promote debate.
Ha....I know my question but would split opinions. I've been watching Jay Leno in his garage testing cars. That guy REALLY LOVES CARS.....in a nice spiritual way.
As much as he's uber fast cars in his collection, he has a real passion for the simple feel of properly sorted car, what ever it's power maybe. I guess it got me thinking once again about the subject.
It's all horses for courses, and one man's meat and all that, but what I thinks is great is that we're all after the same buzz, just we get it in different ways!
As much as he's uber fast cars in his collection, he has a real passion for the simple feel of properly sorted car, what ever it's power maybe. I guess it got me thinking once again about the subject.
It's all horses for courses, and one man's meat and all that, but what I thinks is great is that we're all after the same buzz, just we get it in different ways!
Classic Chim said:
Some bloke who builds these engines and especially the speed six and AJP to huge power levels has a habit of telling the owners when they pick the cars up
Enjoy but don't kill yourself.
He means every word and I'm sure he probably mentioned similar to you buddy.
Well now, that man didn't warn me. Must have been trying to tell me something Enjoy but don't kill yourself.
He means every word and I'm sure he probably mentioned similar to you buddy.
The tight git didn't even send a proper copy of the dyno print, just a cheapo pic from his crappy phone 
When the car was ready he sent an email and all it said was, "That's one monster of a car"
Thumbsnap working now:
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