Plonking a 4.5 in the 4.0 - issues?
Discussion
Hi Guys,
I am at the point of putting a new engine in my Chim. I got this as a project without the engine but was standard 4.00
So as I need an engine - am I better just getting a 4.5 in there? I do have some decent 4.00 heads??
if I went with the 4.5 - am i looking at many issues? insurance, further upgrades like brakes etc??
I would welcome your thoughts ......
I am at the point of putting a new engine in my Chim. I got this as a project without the engine but was standard 4.00
So as I need an engine - am I better just getting a 4.5 in there? I do have some decent 4.00 heads??
if I went with the 4.5 - am i looking at many issues? insurance, further upgrades like brakes etc??
I would welcome your thoughts ......
Yes, totally straightforward. The TVR '450' engine was in fact pretty much a standard Land/Range Rover 4.6 engine with a different cam and valve train components and some minor head work. There are car to car variations but it would be fair to describe your average Chimaera 450 engine as a 4.6 LR lump with 400 HC heads and cam (and the old-style Lucas fuel injection and mechanical ignition distributor rather than the integrated GEMS management system with coil packs that Land Rover themselves were using at that point in time)..
Do you have 10 bolt or 14 bolt heads (the latter are the earlier style, used with pre-serpentine belt engines up to '94 - they have another 4 bolts on the sides in addition to the two rows of 5 bolts, due to the bigger combustion chambers they'd give a low compression ratio (somewhere in the 8.7:1 range) if put on a standard 4.6 Rangey engine.What you'd ideally be looking for is a 4.6 block and 4.0 litre pistons with valve reliefs cut into the deck to allow a decent cam to be fitted.
At this point I'd think about using the Land Rover GEMS management that comes with any Land Rover 4.6 (and 4.0) engine, too - Mark Adams can set you up with an unlocked ECU that works outside a Land Rover, and a bespoke engine loom.
All models from about '96 on had the same suspension and brakes, the earlier non-500 models had slightly smaller brakes. It's all basic Ford stuff (Sierra mostly) and it wouldn't be much of an issue to bolt the later brakes on from a practical or financial POV.
Do you have 10 bolt or 14 bolt heads (the latter are the earlier style, used with pre-serpentine belt engines up to '94 - they have another 4 bolts on the sides in addition to the two rows of 5 bolts, due to the bigger combustion chambers they'd give a low compression ratio (somewhere in the 8.7:1 range) if put on a standard 4.6 Rangey engine.What you'd ideally be looking for is a 4.6 block and 4.0 litre pistons with valve reliefs cut into the deck to allow a decent cam to be fitted.
At this point I'd think about using the Land Rover GEMS management that comes with any Land Rover 4.6 (and 4.0) engine, too - Mark Adams can set you up with an unlocked ECU that works outside a Land Rover, and a bespoke engine loom.
All models from about '96 on had the same suspension and brakes, the earlier non-500 models had slightly smaller brakes. It's all basic Ford stuff (Sierra mostly) and it wouldn't be much of an issue to bolt the later brakes on from a practical or financial POV.
Edited by 900T-R on Tuesday 9th January 09:27
Just make sure the pistons are pocketed so your choice of cam opens up or to make sure valves don't meet pistons.
I've a 400 exhaust on my 450 and its obviously the same as its a perfect fit.
Others will know more but a new cam and block suggests having a rolling road session to setup the ecu correctly (I recommend Joolz).
I can recommend the stealth cam from v8 developments but there's plenty to choose from and discussed at length on here.
Feel free to upgrade your brakes at the same time.
I've a 400 exhaust on my 450 and its obviously the same as its a perfect fit.
Others will know more but a new cam and block suggests having a rolling road session to setup the ecu correctly (I recommend Joolz).
I can recommend the stealth cam from v8 developments but there's plenty to choose from and discussed at length on here.
Feel free to upgrade your brakes at the same time.
I can second the above comments. I broke my 5 litre engine, which in itself is an inherently poor design, and decided to replace it with a 4.6, keep it low compression and turbocharge it.
Make your decisions about future development before you start, as it may alter your decision about what you build. If there is any chance of going for forced induction in the future you want to stay standardish and low compression. If staying normally aspirated then you want the opposite.
I bought some Range Rover blocks with 4.6 cranks (4.0 and 4.6 blocks are identical, it’s what goes in them that defines the capacity). I was lucky in that in my job lot were two top hat linered blocks. I used one of them for my engine - you want to have top hat liners to avoid future problems.
As I was going FI, my expert specified standard RR heads (£45 off EBay), standard RR cam (£78 from Rimmers) and my old inlet manifold. So I had minimal valve overlap and low compression. It makes 395 bhp and 525 ft lbs at 7.5 psi.
All the ancillaries are the same regardless of models. Much of the rest of the running gear is the same throughout - just make sure your brakes match your ambitions.
Good luck with your build - take lots of advice and work out what you want from the car first.
ETA Mine started life as a 4 litre.
Make your decisions about future development before you start, as it may alter your decision about what you build. If there is any chance of going for forced induction in the future you want to stay standardish and low compression. If staying normally aspirated then you want the opposite.
I bought some Range Rover blocks with 4.6 cranks (4.0 and 4.6 blocks are identical, it’s what goes in them that defines the capacity). I was lucky in that in my job lot were two top hat linered blocks. I used one of them for my engine - you want to have top hat liners to avoid future problems.
As I was going FI, my expert specified standard RR heads (£45 off EBay), standard RR cam (£78 from Rimmers) and my old inlet manifold. So I had minimal valve overlap and low compression. It makes 395 bhp and 525 ft lbs at 7.5 psi.
All the ancillaries are the same regardless of models. Much of the rest of the running gear is the same throughout - just make sure your brakes match your ambitions.
Good luck with your build - take lots of advice and work out what you want from the car first.
ETA Mine started life as a 4 litre.
Edited by QBee on Tuesday 9th January 12:54
Insurance - no difference.
Most of us use classic policies on limited mileage and can prove we have driven powerful cars before. Around £200-300 a year.
If you are 19 and have only had a 1.1 Fiesta, think again. A young guy we know rebuilt a TVR Chimaera and then couldn’t get insurance.
Most of us use classic policies on limited mileage and can prove we have driven powerful cars before. Around £200-300 a year.
If you are 19 and have only had a 1.1 Fiesta, think again. A young guy we know rebuilt a TVR Chimaera and then couldn’t get insurance.
Hi guys
Some great comments and very thought provoking... would be a shone to go down the 4.0 let standard route as I have to opportunity to do something different. The car it's self was a project - off the road for 8 years, no engine and just a wreck. Now chassis rewrorked and looks great - new wish bones, bushes, refurbed T5 and Diff.. so it s getting there - but the point being at 73k and no engine/service history the car once done will only really hold the value for myself. I don't want to go to mad .. but there great cars and have no desire to get shot...
So back to it... the heads are the 10 bolt version. So general thoughts go for the gems 4.6. New cam, my heads.. using the original fuel system/injection - would this be an alternate ECU to the standard 4.0 I have already?
Fortunately at mid 30's I should be ok on the insurance front just didn't know how it would be classed.
Some great comments and very thought provoking... would be a shone to go down the 4.0 let standard route as I have to opportunity to do something different. The car it's self was a project - off the road for 8 years, no engine and just a wreck. Now chassis rewrorked and looks great - new wish bones, bushes, refurbed T5 and Diff.. so it s getting there - but the point being at 73k and no engine/service history the car once done will only really hold the value for myself. I don't want to go to mad .. but there great cars and have no desire to get shot...
So back to it... the heads are the 10 bolt version. So general thoughts go for the gems 4.6. New cam, my heads.. using the original fuel system/injection - would this be an alternate ECU to the standard 4.0 I have already?
Fortunately at mid 30's I should be ok on the insurance front just didn't know how it would be classed.
I bought mine with the canems conversion carried out. I told Footman James it had a different ECU. And the uprated (Lupo) headlamps.
The person I was speaking too wasn't that technical so explaining that the distributor had been removed and the single coil replaced with 2 coil packs too would have been lost on them I think.
I did the original quote online and you can select loads of changes / upgrades on a dry run to see if it affects the quote. Strangely, though, change of ECU wasn't one of them so I had to do it on the phone anyway. No change to premium at all. It's smoother with perhaps a little bit more power, but no more than it should have had as 'standard.'
The person I was speaking too wasn't that technical so explaining that the distributor had been removed and the single coil replaced with 2 coil packs too would have been lost on them I think.
I did the original quote online and you can select loads of changes / upgrades on a dry run to see if it affects the quote. Strangely, though, change of ECU wasn't one of them so I had to do it on the phone anyway. No change to premium at all. It's smoother with perhaps a little bit more power, but no more than it should have had as 'standard.'
If your going for a different ECU personally I would give the Old Land Rover ECU a miss there is a lot of talk about it self learning wich it is to a point but a small point
But like the above posts decide what your going to do before you start or it will get very expensive very fast
Good luck
But like the above posts decide what your going to do before you start or it will get very expensive very fast
Good luck
Good Evening China, No real practical issues as others have said, and they are also quite right with regard to starting the planning process at the end and working back to where you are now.
I see you're in Northants, I'm in Wellingborough and have experienced at 1st hand some of the pitfalls so if you'd like to pop round for a chat, or meet up at a local TVRCC meeting (Sywell Aerodrome on 2nd Sunday of the month) just send me a pm. My car is currently away having a new alarm/immobiliser fitted and a couple of other electrical bits (electrics are definitely one of my weak points, one of many!) however when it is back I'd be glad to show you what can be achieved with a 450.......with a couple of accessories!!
I see you're in Northants, I'm in Wellingborough and have experienced at 1st hand some of the pitfalls so if you'd like to pop round for a chat, or meet up at a local TVRCC meeting (Sywell Aerodrome on 2nd Sunday of the month) just send me a pm. My car is currently away having a new alarm/immobiliser fitted and a couple of other electrical bits (electrics are definitely one of my weak points, one of many!) however when it is back I'd be glad to show you what can be achieved with a 450.......with a couple of accessories!!
jojackson4 said:
If your going for a different ECU personally I would give the Old Land Rover ECU a miss there is a lot of talk about it self learning wich it is to a point but a small point
Still about 100 x as advanced as some of the low-end aftermarket options, thousands of man hours of OEM development have been put in to ensure reliability and driveability under a wide range of conditions and as such much more responsive to the day to day variations in operation for a road car. It's basically a fit and forget solution.900T-R said:
Still about 100 x as advanced as some of the low-end aftermarket options, thousands of man hours of OEM development have been put in to ensure reliability and driveability under a wide range of conditions and as such much more responsive to the day to day variations in operation for a road car. It's basically a fit and forget solution.
Unless you have an power mods then by the reading I have done it can’t cope Good on standard
jojackson4 said:
Unless you have an power mods then by the reading I have done it can’t cope
Good on standard
That's complete baloney (unless you'd use a GEMS ECU as they came with a Land Rover engine, but then you'd need the rest of the Land Rover electrical system to make it run. To be able to use GEMS as a stand-alone system in a TVR or any other RV8-powered car you will need a new chipset to 'unlock' the ECU).Good on standard
There's cars on 5+ litre engines with ITBs and near 400 bhp running GEMS out there. The beauty of it is that you don't program a 'map' as such, just an AFR for every point on the load/rpm map and the system will adjust itself to that target AFR - as long as the fuel system is correctly sized for the application of course.
You will never have to dig into the engine management system again, be it to cope with subsequent mods/upgrades or changing running conditions.
QBee said:
My insurers, Classic Line, have not batted an eyelid at my engine changes or modifications.
No probs with 'zorst, induction, ecu, suspension etc with Classicline for me either 
Here ya go : £500-ish gets you one 4.6 GEMS engine, complete, running, 68k on the clock, with a free chicken coop included to annoy the neighbours with
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RANGE-ROVER-P38-4-6-HSE...
QBee said:
My insurers, Classic Line, have not batted an eyelid at my engine changes or modifications.
Just make sure that when you answer the questions on the proposal form very truthfully, the BHP increase over standard does not exceed 150%. Once over this power increase the premium takes off. Just sayin'.... 
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