Outrigger Corners - Filling The Void

Outrigger Corners - Filling The Void

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Discussion

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
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First of all this post is just to discuss an idea, I'm on the fence at this stage so all sensible opinions are welcomed.

I've been considering where the rot starts in the outriggers and why, and it seems abundantly clear from all the body lift chassis restoration photos I've seen and more recently those of my own that the issue always starts in the four outer corners.

To bring this to life here are mine





The reason for this is the corner strengthening fillets act as platforms holding the damp road dirt thrown up by the wheels, this muck sits as a moist mass against the steel outriggers and trapped right in the the outrigger corners so making for the perfect recipe to promote corrosion. Moreover with the body sat over the top what you end up with is a neat void, and that void is the perfect mud trap!

Modern cars solve the mud trap issue using wheel arch liners, I'll be doing the something similar with my Chimaera by fitting outrigger protectors before it even turns a wheel after it's chassis renovation, however what if those mud traps could be completely eliminated in the first place, the idea being to fill the voids with a suitable compound?

The best option seems to be Shell Tixophalte Wet Seal & Fix which is a is a ready-to-use rust inhibiting bituminous compound that can be applied cold as a filler, formulated from carefully selected components based on rubber-modified bitumen it never actually sets like a silicone or polyurethane sealant. This product is easy to apply and using a caulking gun so can be forced into the outrigger corners ensuring the voids are completely filled, Shell Tixophalte is designed to offer long-lasting protection and waterproofing.

Formulated for high resistance to movement, weathering, chemicals and other environmental factors its hydrophobic state is so good it can even be applied underwater, in the next two videos we can see it's amazing water chasing properties.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83hgAefT85E&fe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZCN8EUR6Vc



So what do people think about the idea of eliminating these known mud traps and the primary points of corrosion by filling the voids with Shell Tixophalte?

ray von

2,913 posts

251 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
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Hmm I've never used that stuff what if it didn't 'take' correctly and made a better mud trap? Would you not be better off once in a while sticking an airline in and around the gusset and give them a blast out?
I would just leave it with the protectors I'm sure your paint will be more than enough
I pulled wheel arch liners off a MK4 golf and was confronted by lovely compacted mud all up the inner arch once what a mess

Belle427

8,864 posts

232 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
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I tend to agree it's better to see what's happening to the metal and not encapsulate anything so to speak.
Everyone has different opinions.

sapper

1,133 posts

204 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
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When I replaced my outriggers I used ether that or something similar. Sorry but can’t remember the exact product.
I gave the outriggers a few coats of zinc paint then before I lowered the body back on to the chassis, I filled all the corners and the cross beams with this.
Then put a lot of extra on top so when I lowered the chassis it squeezed out the excess.
8 years since and still working well.

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
quotequote all
Belle427 said:
I tend to agree it's better to see what's happening to the metal and not encapsulate anything so to speak.
Everyone has different opinions.
Fair points from Ray Von and Belle427, and they're really why I'm undecided.

I've been studying the pros and cons of various ideas as I consider my options while the body is still off, initially and despite the excellent performance I've enjoyed from the Dinitro 3125 wax and 4941 underseal rustproofing (applied way back in January 2011) I'd decided I wasn't going with it again, mainly because I'm sick of getting covered in the stuff.

However I guess the outrigger corners and tops half radius of the main outrigger tubes could be treated with the same two stage Dinitrol system for additional protection against this sort of thing scratchchin



As these areas are hidden, in theory I shouldn't get coated in the stuff when I work on the car yuck

Or maybe I should just save my money on rust proofing products, leave the voids un-filled with goop and just rely on the outrigger protectors and the Jotamastic 90 epoxy mastic 2k paint system?

However if I do go with the no goop option I would like flushing holes drilled in my new corner fillets, as the name suggests these holes would alow me to flush out any salt or road debris that may still end up sat trapped on these very effective muck platforms.

And using a suitable hose attachment the flushing could be made much more convenient scratchchin



As I swing back to the no rustproofing or void filling goop idea keeping everything clear with a regular blast of fresh water does seem the best option, the above hose attachment makes this possible without jacking the car and is ideal for running along the outriggers and getting into the suggested flushing holes. But I will need those flushing holes adding before the body goes back on, and they will need painting or the fresh bare steel edges of the newly drilled holes will start to rust in no time.

I'll discuss the flushing holes idea with Alex Wheatly next week, but before this I'm interested in what others think about all this, so your additional comments are welcomed.



sapper said:
When I replaced my outriggers I used ether that or something similar. Sorry but can’t remember the exact product.
I gave the outriggers a few coats of zinc paint then before I lowered the body back on to the chassis, I filled all the corners and the cross beams with this.
Then put a lot of extra on top so when I lowered the chassis it squeezed out the excess.
8 years since and still working well.
Interesting sapper, that's the exactly the idea I'm considering scratchchin

Edited by ChimpOnGas on Sunday 16th February 12:44

Belle427

8,864 posts

232 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
quotequote all
I think rust proofing products have come a long way since the days of waxoyl, dinitrol seem to have some of the best around.

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
quotequote all
Belle427 said:
I think rust proofing products have come a long way since the days of waxoyl, dinitrol seem to have some of the best around.
Agreed, the Dinitrol 3125 wax and 4941 underseal two stage rustproofing system applied by 'Chassis Clean' back in January 2011 definitely delayed the need for new outriggers for many years, and it certainly held back the existing corrosion around the welds while I built up my chassis renovation war chest for the body lift that's essential to achieve proper de-rusting and painting.

The Dinitrol treatment wasn't cheap at the time, but in the end over the 9 years it worked out at just £40 a year so I'd now consider it excellent value for money, but these days I'm drawn to the nice clean chassis experience so I'm favoring purely relying on outrigger protectors and the very tough industrial marine grade epoxy mastic paint from Jotun.

But do we fill the corners and cover the tops of the tubes with something as sapper did before Alex drops the body back on, or do I go with the 'No Goop' option and stick with regular fresh water flushing scratchchin

There are pros and cons for each approach so I still remain undecided confused

ray von

2,913 posts

251 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
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Nice little squirter that biggrin
If you really wanted to put something on I'd go with your choice of wax but no goop (claggy stuff as it's called in the North East), can't give you any technical reasons, it's just a feeling that if it didn't work correctly it would make it worse.
However as you've said the original chassis has lasted 23 years if you reassembled your car now and didn't use protectors, goop,wax or even looked at it again there'll be a few of us who will be long gone before it needs doing again thumbup

Classic Chim

12,424 posts

148 months

Sunday 16th February 2020
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Your options are leave it open to the elements which includes the wind with said holes to clean out the muck build up which really is the main causing factor of the onset of rot.
Or seal it so muck can’t get in there and gather. Eventually I’d expect sealant to start falling away from the tubes ( lose its bond ) but that could be 20 years or more.
Both solutions including a small hole for airline seem like a good idea as opposed to doing nothing.

Damp build up is the dreaded so I’d be doing the first option.
Agree, every body off I’ve seen it’s the tops of the tubes that rot out. Protect those with a suitable product and were on our way for years or decades yet. thumbup

Barreti

6,680 posts

236 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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I made corner flitch plates with a hole at the corner so I can get my finger in. I didn't use waxoyl or similar because I want the plates to be kept dry so I can just stick a finger or air line blow gun in through the end or through the corner hole and clear the crap out and feel how the paint is holding up. Everything seems fine so far and its been around 7 years since I did my outriggers.

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
Ok chaps, thanks for entering into the discussion, I'm now set on what I'm calling the 'No-Goop' option hehe

I've decided while voids of any kind are not ideal is better to have clear voids I can flush out with fresh water than voids filled with something, even if that something is a rustproofing bitumen based compound as it's always possible it may shrink and create new voids of its own that could potentially trap water/debris.

The system will be....

1. A good 2k epoxy mastic paint

2. Outrigger protectors to keep the muck out and stop stone chipping of the normally exposed outrigger tubes

3. Flushing holes drilled in the corner fillets

4. Regular fresh water flushing with a suitable hose attachment

The first two elements offer a massive improvement in protection over what the car got from new which by itself delivered 23 years of serviceable outrigger life, the way I see it with the far superior protection offered by a better paint system and outrigger protectors combined with regular fresh water flushing should deliver a lot more than 23 years.

Thanks for your input everyone thumbup

Dave.




spikep

468 posts

281 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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I had the holes made bigger, more like the M series chassis.
This is my Griff chassis

dhutch

14,198 posts

196 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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Making the plates with a hole in the corner isnt a bad shout at all.

In terms of if you leave it bare for cleaning and inspection, or fill it with the best thing you can find, I think it depending on if you have the access to clean it out, and if you actually will and want to do it almost every time the car goes out, as well as ensuring their is protection and it can get damage on it. If you can keep it clean, with paint on it, and check it regularly, that is likely as good or batter as anything else. Something that is sustainable for a garage queen, using almost always in dry weather, by someone with slightly to much time on their hands!

However as soon as gets to the point where the access isn't really there to clean it, or actually you just want to be able to use the car and park it up afterwards, very quickly actually you can going to end up with a clump of slightly salty mud sitting their for a fortnight six times a year.

At which point I would very strongly lean towards bedding it down on a pile of suitable goop, with the Shell Tixophalte looking like good stuff.

The only way I can see it making it worse (given as you say, its out the way and not like to get all over you) is if it became debonded, and thus allowed damp muck to be trapped while preventing access to clean it, which feels unlikely.

I used to be really against goop as a solution, and still basically am, but some places are just very hard to keep clean and with good paint, and which point better to have goop. However it does also depend, as above, on the cars use and your dedication to cleaning, I know life is short and I wouldn't get around to every time the car went out in the wet.

If not gooping, I would certainly give a squirt of PU or something between the actual contact points.

Daniel

magpies

5,129 posts

181 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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When I refurbed my S 1 chassis 6 years ago I laid Denso Tape (grease impregnated tape as used by utility companies to wrap the underground steel pipes) along the tops of the outrigger tubes.
This year I have done a body off to change engine and 'box and modify the chassis to allow the exhaust to run at the same level and not below. I checked the chassis and no signs of rust, so I re-coated (changing from blue to black) and fully wrapped the tubes with Denso this time.

Classic Chim

12,424 posts

148 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
magpies said:
When I refurbed my S 1 chassis 6 years ago I laid Denso Tape (grease impregnated tape as used by utility companies to wrap the underground steel pipes) along the tops of the outrigger tubes.
This year I have done a body off to change engine and 'box and modify the chassis to allow the exhaust to run at the same level and not below. I checked the chassis and no signs of rust, so I re-coated (changing from blue to black) and fully wrapped the tubes with Denso this time.
I like this... do you have any pictures. Seems like a great idea. We might have a fit and forget solution after all. thumbup

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
spikep said:
I had the holes made bigger, more like the M series chassis.
This is my Griff chassis
^^I've always liked the open corner fillet arrangement^^

Its still a platform that can hold road muck but its no going to hold it in the corner, and flushing with fresh water is far easier than with a fillet that creates a closed corner. I had intended to discuss the open corner idea with Alex but there are only so many things I can remember, and I'm sure I can become annoying with all my little requests.

Anyway I'm now thinking with the right hose attachment aimed correctly and running sufficient hose pressure there really shouldn't even be a need for my flushing holes idea, the best option is the leave my new painted fillets as they are and after all its getting these outrigger protectors too so I very much doubt there will be much if any road debris collecting in the corners anyway.






Edited by ChimpOnGas on Tuesday 18th February 07:29

BIG DUNC

1,918 posts

222 months

Monday 17th February 2020
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Classic Chim said:
magpies said:
When I refurbed my S 1 chassis 6 years ago I laid Denso Tape (grease impregnated tape as used by utility companies to wrap the underground steel pipes) along the tops of the outrigger tubes.
This year I have done a body off to change engine and 'box and modify the chassis to allow the exhaust to run at the same level and not below. I checked the chassis and no signs of rust, so I re-coated (changing from blue to black) and fully wrapped the tubes with Denso this time.
I like this... do you have any pictures. Seems like a great idea. We might have a fit and forget solution after all. thumbup
I would be cautious of Denso tape. I have experience of it in the shipping industry where it is commonly used to protect hydraulic pipes on deck. In bad weather, green (salt water) waves spray over the deck every few minutes so it is a pretty tough environment.

In the short term, Denso tape, which is a cloth tape impregnated with grease offers great protection to hydraulic pipes (which are also coated with marine paints, similar to those which CoG talks about in his chassis thread). In the short term, it is good added protection that we all dream about.

Long term, it is a different story. If you can see a pipe and it is rusty then you know you need to do a bit of surface preparation and paint it. If it is “protected” by Denso tape then you cannot see it. I have seen some real horrors when the Denso is removed and all is left is a very flakey rusty pipe ( & normally the tape is only removed as the pipe is leaking).

I think what happens is, over time, the grease gets washed out and disappears leaving an absorbent cloth which then holds sea water against the pipe, which then rapidly corrodes. That is not really the killer though.

The killer is, in my opinion, that you cannot see it. The Denso tape hides the evidence (whether good or bad). For the crew on a ship, this is excellent. “I see no rust, I have no reason to carry out maintenance to that pipe”.

Is it so excellent that you want that for your chassis? How easy is it to remove the tape from your chassis to inspect?

That said, conditions on the deck of a ship are far worse than your chassis is ever likely to experience. It may be that the grease never gets washed out and it isn’t an issue.



magpies

5,129 posts

181 months

Monday 17th February 2020
quotequote all
BIG DUNC said:
Is it so excellent that you want that for your chassis? How easy is it to remove the tape from your chassis to inspect?
That said, conditions on the deck of a ship are far worse than your chassis is ever likely to experience. It may be that the grease never gets washed out and it isn’t an issue.
Hi BD
When I applied the Denso to the original refurbed chassis 6 years ago I only applied it to the top of the tubes - so all was easily inspected. This time I have applied it to the tops again but then wrapped the outer most tube. I did find that small parts of the Denso had 'dried' out but not compromised the painted finish. I am looking at chassis tube protection and fitted mud flaps - still undecided on what to use along the length - may Tiger seal a plastic or aluminium strip which can be removed each year or two.

ChimpOnGas

Original Poster:

9,637 posts

178 months

Tuesday 18th February 2020
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Just found these rather neatly fabricated outrigger protectors made by bluezeeland from low density PVC.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...





A really nice job bow

dogbucket

1,200 posts

200 months

Friday 21st February 2020
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I did a body on spruce up on mine when I got it 13 years ago. Epoxy Mastic paint with Dinitrol 4942 over the top using an extension tube to squirt into all corners under the body (after everything was cleaned as much as possible). The particular area you highlighted I ran a bead of Tigerseal to just seal the top of the outrigger to the body and stop any stones/gunk getting down there. Front outrigger got a plastic guard cut and cable tied on.

In fact I was a bit lazy with the rear suspension and just cleaned off the loose powder coat and then covered in Dinitrol and it still looks perfect.