Injector Upgrades - The Vectra Injector Mod is Dead!
Discussion
combine04 said:
Valuable advice, Dave - thank you. I sadly can't check due to only "running" Macs at the moment, so cannot access Rover Gauge. However, pleased that timing is such that I'll be up to Joolz very soon for him to a/ check the car over including the injectors and b/ fit an Emerald with all mods and parameters taken into account!
combine04 - a quick tip to determine which map your car is running: check the colour of the wire sleeve on the tune resistor, for location see second post here https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=17...If white, you are running Closed Loop Map 5 so adjusting the CO Trim pot will have no effect.
if green, you are running Open Loop Map 2 and adjusting the CO Trim pot does alter long term trim values up to 3000 rpm.
Short update following my adventure with the change to the Bosch injectors!
After swapping out the faulty MAF and adjusting the base idle ....my 450 is running very sweetly.
No signs of over fueling and is more lively than before probably due more to changing the MAF than the injectors but very nice all the same.
After swapping out the faulty MAF and adjusting the base idle ....my 450 is running very sweetly.
No signs of over fueling and is more lively than before probably due more to changing the MAF than the injectors but very nice all the same.
Oh boy. Just doing a bit of casual Internet browsing and I'm now nearly £200 lighter!
Mind you this is a little cheaper than the prices in the original post from a year ago and I bought from Autodoc so should be kosher.
I'm really hoping I see expected gains suggested in the original post particularly as I'm running the original Lucas greens, they've not had much use but been in a while (not a high mileage car). I'm running green map, no cats or closed loop so may be a bit rich as no way for system to compensate, if necessary I'll re-map the 14CUX which is something I've been aiming to do anyhow.
Fingers crossed!
Mind you this is a little cheaper than the prices in the original post from a year ago and I bought from Autodoc so should be kosher.
I'm really hoping I see expected gains suggested in the original post particularly as I'm running the original Lucas greens, they've not had much use but been in a while (not a high mileage car). I'm running green map, no cats or closed loop so may be a bit rich as no way for system to compensate, if necessary I'll re-map the 14CUX which is something I've been aiming to do anyhow.
Fingers crossed!
I now use V8 BMW inj's new old stock now just because they came up for silly monies and they was new Link taken from another thread asking where this thread was.
Seem to be on sale atthe moment - https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/689352
Seem to be on sale atthe moment - https://www.autodoc.co.uk/bosch/689352
mk1fan
Interesting thanks, the 3 bar flow rate is similar to Land Rover injectors also at 3 bars therefore I wonder if that means it's flow rate is similar to standard at our 2.5 bar?
Mark,
Don’t know about mpg, sorry.
In 2020 I upgraded to Vectra injectors which helped reduce shunting and I had to lower my main fuel table scalar from 6B6C to 60E0, I also increase my row scalar / AFM scalar by +1 which will barely increase fuel.
Hex Decimal
6B6C 27,000
60E0 24,800
Reduction 2,200
Therefore 2,200 / 27,000 = 8.15% lower scalar.
Interesting thanks, the 3 bar flow rate is similar to Land Rover injectors also at 3 bars therefore I wonder if that means it's flow rate is similar to standard at our 2.5 bar?
Mark,
Don’t know about mpg, sorry.
In 2020 I upgraded to Vectra injectors which helped reduce shunting and I had to lower my main fuel table scalar from 6B6C to 60E0, I also increase my row scalar / AFM scalar by +1 which will barely increase fuel.
Hex Decimal
6B6C 27,000
60E0 24,800
Reduction 2,200
Therefore 2,200 / 27,000 = 8.15% lower scalar.
I run a 3 BAR fuel press reg did with the Lucas also so your -8% compares with my -5% approx (was a while back) I didnt save notes but remember reducing fuel with the 1588's compared to the Lucas/Hotwire inj's stevesprint said:
mk1fan
Interesting thanks, the 3 bar flow rate is similar to Land Rover injectors also at 3 bars therefore I wonder if that means it's flow rate is similar to standard at our 2.5 bar?
Mark,
Don’t know about mpg, sorry.
In 2020 I upgraded to Vectra injectors which helped reduce shunting and I had to lower my main fuel table scalar from 6B6C to 60E0, I also increase my row scalar / AFM scalar by +1 which will barely increase fuel.
Hex Decimal
6B6C 27,000
60E0 24,800
Reduction 2,200
Therefore 2,200 / 27,000 = 8.15% lower scalar.
So its that simple basically? Just reduce the main scalar by the amount the injector flow increases? Interesting thanks, the 3 bar flow rate is similar to Land Rover injectors also at 3 bars therefore I wonder if that means it's flow rate is similar to standard at our 2.5 bar?
Mark,
Don’t know about mpg, sorry.
In 2020 I upgraded to Vectra injectors which helped reduce shunting and I had to lower my main fuel table scalar from 6B6C to 60E0, I also increase my row scalar / AFM scalar by +1 which will barely increase fuel.
Hex Decimal
6B6C 27,000
60E0 24,800
Reduction 2,200
Therefore 2,200 / 27,000 = 8.15% lower scalar.
I get confused in there terms for the various scales- I was thinking the multiplier displayed in RoverGauge is is one that controls the injector period based on the map load value x the multiplier? Is this the main scalar? I've always thought the row scalar as the one to get the airflow value correct for the different engine sizes? Not had to mess around with these values to see the effect.
I think it depends on whether the engine is modded and running an aftermarket ECU (the fueling parameters on the 14CUX maybe adjustable just not 'DIY' like Mega, Emerald etc ..) so the package as a whole can be 'best matched'.
I suspect that there would be benefits to be had in remapping a 'standard' engine after fitting them - as would be the case with a new cam or flowed heads for example. Given the relatively small uplift in cost over getting the original injectors cleaned and the inconvenience of the car being off the road while they are being done, I would certainly give them a try in a 'standard' engine without a remap.
I suspect that there would be benefits to be had in remapping a 'standard' engine after fitting them - as would be the case with a new cam or flowed heads for example. Given the relatively small uplift in cost over getting the original injectors cleaned and the inconvenience of the car being off the road while they are being done, I would certainly give them a try in a 'standard' engine without a remap.
Yep - I have a 450 cat and I am running with these injectors.
I remember I checked the flow rate specs of old and new and as I believe they were very close for equivalent fuel pressures.
In closed loop I guess that the lambdas and 14 cux are doing their job. I see no real evidence of over fueling.
I should add I have no extra AFR sensors not have measured since on a rolling road with an AFR probe.
Car is running very well - had wanted to upgrade 20+ year old single port injectors with the 4 hole spray pattern.
For me it was a straight swap.
Would be interested in other comments though.
I remember I checked the flow rate specs of old and new and as I believe they were very close for equivalent fuel pressures.
In closed loop I guess that the lambdas and 14 cux are doing their job. I see no real evidence of over fueling.
I should add I have no extra AFR sensors not have measured since on a rolling road with an AFR probe.
Car is running very well - had wanted to upgrade 20+ year old single port injectors with the 4 hole spray pattern.
For me it was a straight swap.
Would be interested in other comments though.
Mark
Yes you’re correct, I just reduced the main multiplier that’s typically 5DBE for 400 non-cat and 56CC for CATs.
It appears from everyone’s experiences with Vectra injectors the main multiplier needs to be reduced about 8% with increased fuel pressure from 2.5 to 3 bars and the multiplier only reduced about 3% with standard fuel pressure.
You’ve also got the row scalar correct.
“I've always thought the row scalar as the one to get the airflow value correct for the different engine sizes?”
Andrew
Its depends if your running CAT or Non-CAT map.
Sounds like “Italian450” 450 CAT ECU is automatically trimming the fuel down enough to compensate for the extra fuel flow but that still isn’t ideal as the lambda trims are disabled above 3,400 rpm and on full throttle, however 3% extra fuel on full load will be safe and good for small engine mods plus will hurt your pocket more than your engine.
Non-CATs can’t automatically trim the fuel down but they do have manual trim control via the CO trim screw on the AFM, but again its only effective below 3,400 rpms.
SwervinIrvin
Interesting about the starting immediately.
Yes you’re correct, I just reduced the main multiplier that’s typically 5DBE for 400 non-cat and 56CC for CATs.
It appears from everyone’s experiences with Vectra injectors the main multiplier needs to be reduced about 8% with increased fuel pressure from 2.5 to 3 bars and the multiplier only reduced about 3% with standard fuel pressure.
You’ve also got the row scalar correct.
“I've always thought the row scalar as the one to get the airflow value correct for the different engine sizes?”
Andrew
Its depends if your running CAT or Non-CAT map.
Sounds like “Italian450” 450 CAT ECU is automatically trimming the fuel down enough to compensate for the extra fuel flow but that still isn’t ideal as the lambda trims are disabled above 3,400 rpm and on full throttle, however 3% extra fuel on full load will be safe and good for small engine mods plus will hurt your pocket more than your engine.
Non-CATs can’t automatically trim the fuel down but they do have manual trim control via the CO trim screw on the AFM, but again its only effective below 3,400 rpms.
SwervinIrvin
Interesting about the starting immediately.
Hi Steve
Thanks for your great input.
My only mods are :
Smooth bore intake hoses
ACT carbon Trumpets
Mark Adams best guess chip
And yes 450 cat.
After installing I have checked on various occasions the lambda fluctuations on rover gauge and whilst in closed loop there is no sign of any anomalies.
Could well be a little rich out of loop but I don’t notice any issues and all seems good. Maybe a few euros more on acceleration. Never really run with WOT.
Thanks for your great input.
My only mods are :
Smooth bore intake hoses
ACT carbon Trumpets
Mark Adams best guess chip
And yes 450 cat.
After installing I have checked on various occasions the lambda fluctuations on rover gauge and whilst in closed loop there is no sign of any anomalies.
Could well be a little rich out of loop but I don’t notice any issues and all seems good. Maybe a few euros more on acceleration. Never really run with WOT.
combine04 said:
So Joolz had these injectors flow tested while my car was in for an emerald and mapping (absolutely outstanding work and a gentleman to boot).
Here are the results.
Don't suppose he worked out the injector 'dead times' for these did he? I can't find the info anywhere and it's really useful for getting AFR right. Here are the results.
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