Praise to Tornado Systems and Sportmotive
Discussion
After a HUGE amount of time off the road, my Car rebuild And GEMS conversion is is finally coming to an end with the help of Ian and Lyndon at Sportmotive and Liam and Mark at Tornado......Liam even graciously visited Sportmotive to help out with the gems wiring and offered to revisit at start up time. ......Quality service guys! 
Well do some googling daz, basically Lucas spent shed loads of cash developing it for the rover v8. Has knock sensing and able to self map
Not sure why there wasnt more take up in the early years of people changing ecu,s probably due to support it’s more advanced than a emerald and the early mega squirts. However more modern ecu are now giving more features like traction control VE fuelling tables and drive by wire throttle.
Not sure why there wasnt more take up in the early years of people changing ecu,s probably due to support it’s more advanced than a emerald and the early mega squirts. However more modern ecu are now giving more features like traction control VE fuelling tables and drive by wire throttle.
Edited by hoofa on Sunday 14th February 22:49
Apart from the mechanical issues like needing the correct flywheel starter ring and pickup, the software is not available to adapt the ECU without Tornado systems help, so its a non starter as a home mechanic. Its a pity is the systems are dirt cheap second hand, and its a whole lot smarter than the 14CUX. There is a good article in Sprint July 2017 all about an install on a TVR.
My limited knowledge; gems was on first gen p38 range rover, but was designed for multiple applications (not aware of its use elsewhere though) and cost a HEAP of money to get produced.
It's use in TVRS is limited to 450's or other models with late MY engines....think that maybe only due to knock sensors???
I used a gems cam with a modified front cover and a modified flywheel with crank sensor.
It's use in TVRS is limited to 450's or other models with late MY engines....think that maybe only due to knock sensors???
I used a gems cam with a modified front cover and a modified flywheel with crank sensor.
Glad to hear it went well! Have you had a chance to drive it yet? The GEMS system is in my opinion the best solution for a Rover engined car. Here's a copy of my Sprint article on it if anyone is interested...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SBez-kmLlOt0uhHAj...
I'm building a new Chimaera from the ground up (using Sportmotive as it happens and they are top guys, as are Tornado - both fantastic companies to deal with).
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SBez-kmLlOt0uhHAj...
I'm building a new Chimaera from the ground up (using Sportmotive as it happens and they are top guys, as are Tornado - both fantastic companies to deal with).
Moderator edit: no advertising
SILICONEKID 357HP said:
Can only Tornado systems deal with this ECU and when did Gems come about ?
Does it need a basic map for it to self learn ?
It just needs an hour or two on the dyno to ensure all sensors are reading correctly and the injectors (if you're not using standard) are scaled correctly. Other than that it needs no base map - Rover spent millions developing the ECU specifically for the Rover V8 so its base configuration is a supremely developed map for these engines.Does it need a basic map for it to self learn ?
It's this fact coupled with the self adjusting ability that will always make it superior to other ECU solutions.
450Nick said:
It just needs an hour or two on the dyno to ensure all sensors are reading correctly and the injectors (if you're not using standard) are scaled correctly. Other than that it needs no base map - Rover spent millions developing the ECU specifically for the Rover V8 so its base configuration is a supremely developed map for these engines.
It's this fact coupled with the self adjusting ability that will always make it superior to other ECU solutions.
Would you say it drives better than other TVR cars using other mapped ecu because of this self learning.It's this fact coupled with the self adjusting ability that will always make it superior to other ECU solutions.
I was always under the impression if an engines tune doesn’t change much so a strong well maintained engine your bespoke map on any ecu also stays in tune.
You only need a remap if you change the engine character or add another tuning part which will effect mixture or timing etc and even then not always necessary.
All I know is the TVR cars I’ve driven with after market ECU all displayed very smooth acceleration and all an improvement on many levels
Whatever you choose it should work out as a benefit.
Classic Chim said:
Would you say it drives better than other TVR cars using other mapped ecu because of this self learning.
I was always under the impression if an engines tune doesn’t change much so a strong well maintained engine your bespoke map on any ecu also stays in tune.
You only need a remap if you change the engine character or add another tuning part which will effect mixture or timing etc and even then not always necessary.
All I know is the TVR cars I’ve driven with after market ECU all displayed very smooth acceleration and all an improvement on many levels
Whatever you choose it should work out as a benefit.
The problem isn't usually capability, it's the time taken to set up the map. ECUs have many tables for injector time based on throttle angle, manifold pressure, engine speed, engine temperature, barometric pressure, rate of change demand, etc etc. SO many data points that must be set up. This takes time, a lot of time, and a day on the dyno that most ECU tuners give you is no where near enough to set this all up correctly. There's a reason manufacturers take months tuning the ECU on engine dynos, then in the car in all different climates and altitudes; many edge case scenarios cannot be replicated on a dyno. As such, the areas of the map that can't be reached are either guessed or interpolated if possible, so if you're lucky you'll get something that is quite good at the time of year you had it mapped. But go and drive the same car in winter/summer or try living with the car and you will find the holes eventually - my car used to "cough" at about 69 miles an hour on one specific downhill part of the M25 every time I went through among other things.I was always under the impression if an engines tune doesn’t change much so a strong well maintained engine your bespoke map on any ecu also stays in tune.
You only need a remap if you change the engine character or add another tuning part which will effect mixture or timing etc and even then not always necessary.
All I know is the TVR cars I’ve driven with after market ECU all displayed very smooth acceleration and all an improvement on many levels
Whatever you choose it should work out as a benefit.
The only way around this is spending a huge amount of time tuning the ECU, and time costs a lot of money. My conclusion after reviewing the problem and trying to solve it is that there is no point running an aftermarket ECU for all round road use regardless of how much it costs or how many features it has. The problem isn't the ECU capability - it's the time you need to put into it to get a rock solid map in ALL situations you might encounter. As such for any future builds I undertake, I will always use an OEM developed ECU for that engine. In the case of the GEMS system, it's much more advanced that the 14CUX so does provide a much smoother drive with no shunting with OEM level of time spent on all of the map tables within it.
With regard to the self learning bit, an aftermarket ECU will be set up to run that engine in exactly the condition it is in on that day. If the injectors begin to block or the engine loses some compression or the throttle angle sensor begins to drift its output voltage then that effect will register on the running of the engine. With GEMS, it can adjust literally everything to compensate - it can adjust individual injector or spark times and all sorts as the engine wears, so you don't need to remap or mess with it. It will only flag an issue if it can't work around the problem (and will tell you what that problem is through industry standard OBD error codes).
Zener said:
Just for accuracy the Sagem/GEMS ECU has self learning/adaptive functions however it is NOT self mapping 
it was ahead of its time and is a fine solution for engine managment , 90% of cars on our roads have these capabilites
Surely a more modern ecu running closed loop wide band lambda has similar self adjusting functionality, doesn't it? it was ahead of its time and is a fine solution for engine managment , 90% of cars on our roads have these capabilites Or am i missing something?
VerySideways said:
Zener said:
Just for accuracy the Sagem/GEMS ECU has self learning/adaptive functions however it is NOT self mapping it was ahead of its time and is a fine solution for engine managment , 90% of cars on our roads have these capabilites
Surely a more modern ecu running closed loop wide band lambda has similar self adjusting functionality, doesn't it? it was ahead of its time and is a fine solution for engine managment , 90% of cars on our roads have these capabilites Or am i missing something?
I suppose it depends on your definition of self mapping .. the gems as i understand it updates the main fuel map at key-off based on the adaptions ? I think Nick has said that in the past ? Sounds pretty much self mapping for fuel anyway, not sure what it does about ignition timing .. without some kind of torque monitoring through the drivetrain it can't build an ignition map surely ? Some ecus can interface with rolling roads to build a fuel and ignition map based on the dyno feedback. Some OE ecus can monitor the torque through the drivetrain can't they ? Do you know Simon? It's an area I don't delve in to.
Edited by spitfire4v8 on Tuesday 16th February 15:39
spitfire4v8 said:
I suppose it depends on your definition of self mapping .. the gems as i understand it updates the main fuel map at key-off based on the adaptions ? I think Nick has said that in the past ? Sounds pretty much self mapping for fuel anyway, not sure what it does about ignition timing .. without some kind of torque monitoring through the drivetrain it can't build an ignition map surely ? Some ecus can interface with rolling roads to build a fuel and ignition map based on the dyno feedback. Some OE ecus can monitor the torque through the drivetrain can't they ? Do you know Simon? It's an area I don't delve in to.
Quote "I suppose it depends on your definition of self mapping" fair comment Edited by spitfire4v8 on Tuesday 16th February 15:39
just put up for accuracy, yes drivetrain torque easily measured with auto trans for example because the trans ecu/brain is on the CANBUS / Network just another algorithm I guess that if its monitoring enough sensor inputs is accurate enough 
torque converter turbine speed values Vs air consumption, throttle opening, fuel demand etc etcEdited by Zener on Tuesday 16th February 20:45
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