Thierry Bollore Departs Jaguar
Discussion
craigjm said:
Can’t blame the car companies though they are just reacting to government legislation. It’s currently a s
t time to be a car maker. You would have to all be going electric with the next model cycles or die so if or when it turns out to be a white elephant they may all end up holding the baby.
It's surprising that a government with a lifespan perhaps no longer than the next election can just pluck a number out of the air - 2030 or 2050 - and suddenly everybody is falling over themselves to meet it (at a cost of tens of billions). The next government could change it...t time to be a car maker. You would have to all be going electric with the next model cycles or die so if or when it turns out to be a white elephant they may all end up holding the baby. Simpo Two said:
craigjm said:
Can’t blame the car companies though they are just reacting to government legislation. It’s currently a st time to be a car maker. You would have to all be going electric with the next model cycles or die so if or when it turns out to be a white elephant they may all end up holding the baby.
It's surprising that a government with a lifespan perhaps no longer than the next election can just pluck a number out of the air - 2030 or 2050 - and suddenly everybody is falling over themselves to meet it (at a cost of tens of billions). The next government could change it...t time to be a car maker. You would have to all be going electric with the next model cycles or die so if or when it turns out to be a white elephant they may all end up holding the baby. 
Simpo Two said:
It's surprising that a government with a lifespan perhaps no longer than the next election can just pluck a number out of the air - 2030 or 2050 - and suddenly everybody is falling over themselves to meet it (at a cost of tens of billions). The next government could change it...
Nail. Head. Hit.That is exactly where the Re-imagine Project has stumbled, unfortunately.
RingSpanner said:
Simpo Two said:
It's surprising that a government with a lifespan perhaps no longer than the next election can just pluck a number out of the air - 2030 or 2050 - and suddenly everybody is falling over themselves to meet it (at a cost of tens of billions). The next government could change it...
Nail. Head. Hit.That is exactly where the Re-imagine Project has stumbled, unfortunately.
If the legislation around the world gets changed to anything other than full electric it will wrong foot every major manufacturer
craigjm said:
Why? Name me one major manufacturer that is not moving to 100% electric with its next product cycle? Why would you do anything other than that and face not being able to sell your cars in all the major markets?
If the legislation around the world gets changed to anything other than full electric it will wrong foot every major manufacturer
Apart from Tesla - name me one manufacturer that will be wholly EV by 2025.If the legislation around the world gets changed to anything other than full electric it will wrong foot every major manufacturer
RingSpanner said:
craigjm said:
Why? Name me one major manufacturer that is not moving to 100% electric with its next product cycle? Why would you do anything other than that and face not being able to sell your cars in all the major markets?
If the legislation around the world gets changed to anything other than full electric it will wrong foot every major manufacturer
Apart from Tesla - name me one manufacturer that will be wholly EV by 2025.If the legislation around the world gets changed to anything other than full electric it will wrong foot every major manufacturer
Own platform, own factory, own support network, no SUV’s in the line up, no component share with Land Rover. All to be completed by 2027-8 not 2025. The goal is sale of the brand when it is self sufficient and not linked to LR in any way. They are talking 40000 units a year as the total production target. Tata wanted LR in 2007 and now they are getting to the point of divorce. The wholly electric from 2025 is a misunderstanding and a bit of a smoke screen to cover what’s really going on.
Edited by craigjm on Wednesday 14th December 12:32
reddiesel said:
Its all a tall order Craig as you well know .
Absolutely and it’s seriously going to be shoot for the moon or die. Not saying it’s easy or that it’s right, just saying that there isn’t going to be some kind of god like revolution in 2025 and there never was. I personally don’t think it will work. The original XF, the x351 XJ and then the F-type made everything look promising but after that it’s kind of faded and they backed the wrong horse with diesel but can hardly blame them for that. I think the trying to be a direct competitor to the Germans has killed them and we will either see a slow death now or a complete change where someone buys the company and turns it around. It’s going to be like betting everything you have on black at roulette but hey…. Fortune favours the brave and all that
Simpo Two said:
It's surprising that a government with a lifespan perhaps no longer than the next election can just pluck a number out of the air - 2030 or 2050 - and suddenly everybody is falling over themselves to meet it (at a cost of tens of billions). The next government could change it...
I'd bet that if the next government changes it will be to bring the target closer not push it further down the road. reddiesel said:
I struggle to even see a potential buyer Craig . It’s hard to imagine Jaguar in German hands and I think it’s been weakened further by its current lack of identity . What does it actually stand for in today’s marketplace ?
No idea. None of the Germans have anything to gain by buying Jaguar. Do the Chinese have anything to gain? They have done well with Volvo and China has been a big market for it. Sell it to Chery who they are already in a partnership with in China? The Koreans don’t need it these days and Stelantis has no need as it has Maserati and Alfa and could always resurrect Lancia. I wonder if it would be bought by a non car manufacturer like Dyson. When Jaguar have made progress in the past, it was by evolution not revolution. Over the last years, most of the senior management have failed to appreciate that. 'Reimagine' really sounded like 'we have made a total mess and are going to chuck everything and start over' or more precisely we don't know what we are doing. Even if it's true, which it is to some extent though not entirely, it's not a good idea to tell everyone. Apart from anything else, it's not good for sales of the existing product!
Before 'reimagine', we had the company trying take a bigger market share, to rival BMW and Audi, but, as far as I saw, without making any real effort to sell cars. They closed many of the most successful dealerships with the best customer relations because of their small size. They forgot to advertise, though the Land Rover side of the business received significant exposure. They forgot about reliability, letting it fall close to Land Rover and Porsche levels - something they can't afford when they are expected to be unreliable. And the styling slipped from retro to anonymous.
I went to a talk by John Egan a year ago and he made some good points. When asked what should Jaguar be doing, he was quite clear: They should be trying to make the best luxury performance car in the world, not chasing market share, not trying to be BMW or Audi or anyone else.
Egan's book 'Saving Jaguar' should be compulsory reading for anyone who manages (or wants to manage) the Jaguar business.
Before 'reimagine', we had the company trying take a bigger market share, to rival BMW and Audi, but, as far as I saw, without making any real effort to sell cars. They closed many of the most successful dealerships with the best customer relations because of their small size. They forgot to advertise, though the Land Rover side of the business received significant exposure. They forgot about reliability, letting it fall close to Land Rover and Porsche levels - something they can't afford when they are expected to be unreliable. And the styling slipped from retro to anonymous.
I went to a talk by John Egan a year ago and he made some good points. When asked what should Jaguar be doing, he was quite clear: They should be trying to make the best luxury performance car in the world, not chasing market share, not trying to be BMW or Audi or anyone else.
Egan's book 'Saving Jaguar' should be compulsory reading for anyone who manages (or wants to manage) the Jaguar business.
Peter3442 said:
I went to a talk by John Egan a year ago and he made some good points. When asked what should Jaguar be doing, he was quite clear: They should be trying to make the best luxury performance car in the world, not chasing market share, not trying to be BMW or Audi or anyone else.
Egan's book 'Saving Jaguar' should be compulsory reading for anyone who manages (or wants to manage) the Jaguar business.
I know John well, he lives down the road and I see him regularly. When you look at the reimagine strategy and what we know about it they are talking about 3 high end cars competing in the luxury sector with more personalisation that Jaguar has ever had before, low volume (40k per annum) and a decent profit margin. If they pull that off then it’s exactly what he is talking about. People moaning about electric is a side show from the reality of what’s happening. They have to be electric if they are going to be sold into the next decade really whether we like it or not. The question is, rather, let’s see they build three cars that are the best luxury cars in the world, does the brand have the image to be able to sell them? I am not convinced it does. Egan's book 'Saving Jaguar' should be compulsory reading for anyone who manages (or wants to manage) the Jaguar business.
Peter3442 said:
They should be trying to make the best luxury performance car in the world, not chasing market share, not trying to be BMW or Audi or anyone else.
'Me too' is safe easy marketing. To be different takes money and courage.Another problem is that the average family car, which was once leagues below a Jaguar in every respect, has got very much better over the years. They've gone up, Jaguar has come down; there's no gap left.
Jaguar's issue is not shooting for the moon, it should be applauded for this, its issue is not shooting its UK vendors. And at point blank in the face!
I have tried in vane to buy a new Jaguar ever since I could afford one, as a rule I don't phone up any dealer to arrange an appointment as much as I phone up Mr. Ahmed to book an appointment to go and buy the Sunday Times or a bottle of blanc de blanc (for the wife, naturally).
When the dealers are open I expect, within a reasonable amount of time for someone to ask me what I want! After sitting in all the cars, looking at the colours, trim pieces etc and then at the people sat at their desks on mobiles or landlines, I get cheesed off with being ignored and go to Land Rover, who almost immediately sit me down with a coffee, some info and then (within time) someone to talk to. I've never bought a land rover, the monthlies are just plain ridiculous (and I want a road car that can occasionally go off road and not the other way round), but the fact was I was always dealt with in a stratospherically different way by the same dealer group selling the same companies products within 50 yards of each other.
Jaguar will only ever be a pimple on Ze Germans sales figures unless they get this and their marketing sorted, with or without a pure EV range. The cars are great, they have heritage and history that only Mercedes can match and its been fk'ed up by p**s poor dealers and non existent marketing. Doesn't matter if they have an XJ with 800 mile range, no one can be bothered to sell them...
I have tried in vane to buy a new Jaguar ever since I could afford one, as a rule I don't phone up any dealer to arrange an appointment as much as I phone up Mr. Ahmed to book an appointment to go and buy the Sunday Times or a bottle of blanc de blanc (for the wife, naturally).
When the dealers are open I expect, within a reasonable amount of time for someone to ask me what I want! After sitting in all the cars, looking at the colours, trim pieces etc and then at the people sat at their desks on mobiles or landlines, I get cheesed off with being ignored and go to Land Rover, who almost immediately sit me down with a coffee, some info and then (within time) someone to talk to. I've never bought a land rover, the monthlies are just plain ridiculous (and I want a road car that can occasionally go off road and not the other way round), but the fact was I was always dealt with in a stratospherically different way by the same dealer group selling the same companies products within 50 yards of each other.
Jaguar will only ever be a pimple on Ze Germans sales figures unless they get this and their marketing sorted, with or without a pure EV range. The cars are great, they have heritage and history that only Mercedes can match and its been fk'ed up by p**s poor dealers and non existent marketing. Doesn't matter if they have an XJ with 800 mile range, no one can be bothered to sell them...
The dealers aren’t great agreed but when was this story of going from Jaguar to Land Rover v12? They have sold Jaguar and Land Rover from the same showroom through the same sales teams for a couple of years now in most locations which is what did it for the small dealers like Creamers that didn’t have the space to offer both ranges.
Jaguar is far from the only company with rubbish dealers to be fair. I do wonder why, in this day and age, car companies use the franchising model and why they don’t just retail directly
Jaguar is far from the only company with rubbish dealers to be fair. I do wonder why, in this day and age, car companies use the franchising model and why they don’t just retail directly
I wonder how Thierry would have handled this, if he’d still been at the top table?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-delays-vot...
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-delays-vot...
craigjm said:
Ahh that misconception. Show me where (in the original source company material) it states being wholly EV from 2025? This is not true. The original investor presentation said quite clearly, and it’s in the PowerPoint slides you can download about it, that Jaguar will be electric FROM 2025. This is not the same thing. It says that the first car will. E launched in 2025 and the others will follow through 2028 when the transformation will be complete. If you read the strategy and watch the investors presentation it’s clear what the reimagine strategy is about for Jaguar….
(...)
The press release literally reads "Jaguar as an all-electric luxury brand from 2025". For me that reads as all Jaguars in the 2025 line-up will be electric. If this is not the case, then this statement was at least intentionally misleading and corporate communication b(...)
Edited by craigjm on Wednesday 14th December 12:32
ks.Regarding Sir John: I struggle to understand what his merit at Jaguar exactly was. The development of the XJ40 falls in his reign between 1980 and 1990. At least from a design point of view it is one of most controversial and unappreciated Jaguars. And regarding the XJ220 which was unveiled in 1988: My understanding is that it was development as an secret project by the "Saturday Club" and that top management only learned about the project a few weeks before the public unveiling. And the development of the very successful X100 line didn't start until 1992.
Regarding Thierry Bolloré: What are the reasons that got him sacked? I read he's responsible for killing off the electric XJ that was supposed to go to market in 2015?
Edited by florian on Wednesday 8th March 19:21
He didn’t get sacked he left of his own accord. It may have been before he was pushed but we will never know. One thing is for sure, having the chief bean counter in charge at present will not put them in a much better position. As soon as there is a permanent replacement the better and if that is Adrian Mardell then fair enough but at the moment it’s all unclear.
Regarding Sir John in the post above. What did he achieve? Well yes it’s right that XJ40 was underway before he arrived but he did get it to market. It’s also true about the XJ220 although as far as I know it wasn’t that close to showing to the public when management “found out”. They would not have been able to get to that point without management being aware. His biggest achievement was to get so much money for the company from Ford in reality.
The comment about all electric brand from 2025. Let’s think about what is the minimum viable product to get to that. All they would have to do is retire the F-type (happening this year), the XE, XF and E and F Pace are all due to go off sale by then. The only car that will still be in its model cycle is the I Pace. So if on December 31 2025 if the only car in the range is the I Pace they will have met their goal. What we will see in reality is one car in addition to that but we won’t see the whole three model range that’s for sure.
Regarding Sir John in the post above. What did he achieve? Well yes it’s right that XJ40 was underway before he arrived but he did get it to market. It’s also true about the XJ220 although as far as I know it wasn’t that close to showing to the public when management “found out”. They would not have been able to get to that point without management being aware. His biggest achievement was to get so much money for the company from Ford in reality.
The comment about all electric brand from 2025. Let’s think about what is the minimum viable product to get to that. All they would have to do is retire the F-type (happening this year), the XE, XF and E and F Pace are all due to go off sale by then. The only car that will still be in its model cycle is the I Pace. So if on December 31 2025 if the only car in the range is the I Pace they will have met their goal. What we will see in reality is one car in addition to that but we won’t see the whole three model range that’s for sure.
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