F-Types - Astonishing Value!

F-Types - Astonishing Value!

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Discussion

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Wednesday 29th March 2023
quotequote all
You will not be surprised to learn, Red, that I don't agree. There are always very good reasons why specific editions become collectible, it's not always the run-out model. On the X100 XK & XKR the 4.2 was head & shoulders the better car. The Silverstone and XKR100's are not hugely collectable for that reason. Of special editions, the Carbon Edition and XKR400 are ones to grab. The run-out '4.2-S' XK's are probably the most desirable of that model, but the real trick is finding a 4.2 which is in genuinely good condition and not too leggy, with a nice colour and specification.

Similar considerations will come into play on the F-Type. A model which has been produced in high numbers is not immediately collectible, the Land Rover Defender bubble notwithstanding. You can exclude the 2 litre models immediately. Over time, many will run up huge mileages, which will also rule them out.
I have nothing against V8 F-Types, but the V6 was arguably the more enjoyable and involving drive. I don't think that the various special editions, Chequered Flag or British Design Edition for example, are sufficiently distinctive, so won't in my view command a good residual value.

The F-Type 75 is not sufficiently distinctive in appearance. In fact, the earlier facelift is pretty marmite. Furthermore, in 2021 I think, they introduced PPF, killing the exhaust note, and took out the pops and bangs which helped make the earlier F-Types such an experience. In the future immaculate low mileage examples of both V6 and V8 models, 2018MY onwards but pre-PPF will probably be the ones to have.

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 29th March 17:49

reddiesel

1,902 posts

46 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
You will not be surprised to learn, Red, that I don't agree. There are always very good reasons why specific editions become collectible, it's not always the run-out model. On the X100 XK & XKR the 4.2 was head & shoulders the better car. The Silverstone and XKR100's are not hugely collectable for that reason. Of special editions, the Carbon Edition and XKR400 are ones to grab. The run-out '4.2-S' XK's are probably the most desirable of that model, but the real trick is finding a 4.2 which is in genuinely good condition and not too leggy, with a nice colour and specification.

Similar considerations will come into play on the F-Type. A model which has been produced in high numbers is not immediately collectible, the Land Rover Defender bubble notwithstanding. You can exclude the 2 litre models immediately. Over time, many will run up huge mileages, which will also rule them out.
I have nothing against V8 F-Types, but the V6 was arguably the more enjoyable and involving drive. I don't think that the various special editions, Chequered Flag or British Design Edition for example, are sufficiently distinctive, so won't in my view command a good residual value.

The F-Type 75 is not sufficiently distinctive in appearance. In fact, the earlier facelift is pretty marmite. Furthermore, in 2021 I think, they introduced PPF, killing the exhaust note, and took out the pops and bangs which helped make the earlier F-Types such an experience. In the future immaculate low mileage examples of both V6 and V8 models, 2018MY onwards but pre-PPF will probably be the ones to have.

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 29th March 17:49
It would be a boring Forum if we all agreed with each other so as always great to hear various opinions . Firstly I thought the X100 only ever came with the 4.2 engine therefore I am assuming you meant to say that the 4.2 engine was a better power plant than the 5.0 litre ? If so I would be in favour of the 5.0 litre , in supercharged form its a stunning engine and not at all highly stressed . Fair comment about the 4.2 S but in my experience they seldom enjoy a premium and faced with the 4.2S or an X150 XKR I know at least where my money would be .
As regards the F type which my post was largely about , I stand by my comments . I dont decry the V6 cars but I view it as very similar to the Ford Capri 2.0 S when the 3.0 S was available . Nobody ever argued the 2.0 S was a crap car , it was just less desirable than the 3.0 S and current values reflect this
as they will in time for the V6 F type . The XJS is perhaps a better example . The 3.6 and the 4.0 litre were capable cars but neither were in the league of the V12 . PPF was already present on my 69 plate SVR which would make that 2019 , it did emasculate the car somewhat but for future residuals its hard to see this hindering matters .

craigjm

17,912 posts

199 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
If and it’s a big if, the ICE ban arrives as planned, I don’t think we can predict values of a car heading towards classic status. We can all see that in general Jaguars take a long time to start appreciating unless very niche cars built in tiny numbers. With the switch in my opinion it throws all past performance in the air and cannot be used as a predictor of future performance.

The future for classic cars is unclear, what exemptions will they get etc. We also know that the younger generation are less interested in driving and if they are do they want to drive “old cars”? The explosion of cheap leases among young people for the latest tech etc and chop it in every three years suggests they may not.

I would not be surprised or around 2035 the price of all classics actually plummets and the cars we thought might become classics after 2010 fail to materialise.

Maybe I am just doom mongering but I see a dying market for classics literally as those of us over 45 literally die off and those under 25 now become the main drivers in society. Let’s see.

8bit

4,846 posts

154 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
reddiesel said:
...I thought the X100 only ever came with the 4.2 engine...
The early X100 cars used a 4.0 litre V8, that was the one that had issues with nikasil cylinder liners and timing chain tensioners. From what I've read, the tensioner issue on the 4.0 engines really was a case of "when", rather than "if". I suspect that's partly what is fuelling a lot of the panic on the internet around the 5.0 litre timing gear issues. Not saying it doesn't happen but I don't think it's nearly as widespread as some would have us believe.

Later X100 cars switched to the 4.2 engine that was carried over in largely the same form to the early X150 models.

craigjm

17,912 posts

199 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
8bit said:
reddiesel said:
...I thought the X100 only ever came with the 4.2 engine...
The early X100 cars used a 4.0 litre V8, that was the one that had issues with nikasil cylinder liners and timing chain tensioners. From what I've read, the tensioner issue on the 4.0 engines really was a case of "when", rather than "if". I suspect that's partly what is fuelling a lot of the panic on the internet around the 5.0 litre timing gear issues. Not saying it doesn't happen but I don't think it's nearly as widespread as some would have us believe.

Later X100 cars switched to the 4.2 engine that was carried over in largely the same form to the early X150 models.
This is the issue that I have with a lot of this “knowledge”. Often it’s fueled by people reading one incident of failure and then when someone asks a question on a forum it’s trotted out as a serious issue. Bottom line is for most of these things we have no real idea the scale of the problem because people only talk about failures on forums, these people are only a small sample of the real owners and the company concerned never release warranty and reliability data so it’s statistically very hard to actually say “x model has issues with…” with any kind of real validity. I don’t think anyone will deny it doesn’t happen but scale is just unavailable

8bit

4,846 posts

154 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
craigjm said:
8bit said:
reddiesel said:
...I thought the X100 only ever came with the 4.2 engine...
The early X100 cars used a 4.0 litre V8, that was the one that had issues with nikasil cylinder liners and timing chain tensioners. From what I've read, the tensioner issue on the 4.0 engines really was a case of "when", rather than "if". I suspect that's partly what is fuelling a lot of the panic on the internet around the 5.0 litre timing gear issues. Not saying it doesn't happen but I don't think it's nearly as widespread as some would have us believe.

Later X100 cars switched to the 4.2 engine that was carried over in largely the same form to the early X150 models.
This is the issue that I have with a lot of this “knowledge”. Often it’s fueled by people reading one incident of failure and then when someone asks a question on a forum it’s trotted out as a serious issue. Bottom line is for most of these things we have no real idea the scale of the problem because people only talk about failures on forums, these people are only a small sample of the real owners and the company concerned never release warranty and reliability data so it’s statistically very hard to actually say “x model has issues with…” with any kind of real validity. I don’t think anyone will deny it doesn’t happen but scale is just unavailable
Exactly. In my experience American-based or centric fora are extremely bad for this. If you believe everything you read on the main US-based Jag forum, Jaguar have had 3 total failures for every V8 engine they've built and then some. Twitter also doesn't help getting a realistic view of what's going on.

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
reddiesel said:
It would be a boring Forum if we all agreed with each other so as always great to hear various opinions . Firstly I thought the X100 only ever came with the 4.2 engine therefore I am assuming you meant to say that the 4.2 engine was a better power plant than the 5.0 litre ? If so I would be in favour of the 5.0 litre , in supercharged form its a stunning engine and not at all highly stressed . Fair comment about the 4.2 S but in my experience they seldom enjoy a premium and faced with the 4.2S or an X150 XKR I know at least where my money would be .
As regards the F type which my post was largely about , I stand by my comments . I dont decry the V6 cars but I view it as very similar to the Ford Capri 2.0 S when the 3.0 S was available . Nobody ever argued the 2.0 S was a crap car , it was just less desirable than the 3.0 S and current values reflect this
as they will in time for the V6 F type . The XJS is perhaps a better example . The 3.6 and the 4.0 litre were capable cars but neither were in the league of the V12 . PPF was already present on my 69 plate SVR which would make that 2019 , it did emasculate the car somewhat but for future residuals its hard to see this hindering matters .
As was pointed out, the X100 was launched in 1996 with 4.0 AJ-V8 engine. True, it had a number of famous problems. Nikasil, and that was widespread, not a myth. However, Jaguar replaced the affected engines FOC. Plastic timing chain tensioners, failure of which could and often did lunch the engine, had two successive upgrades to solve the problem. Also, there were corrosion issues with the 4.0 - I don't believe that you will find any 4.0 which has not had its floorpans replaced or still has rotten floorpans. All that can be sorted. It's not what I meant. The 4.2 introduced from 2002 was a gutsier more solidly built car. The earlier design was more elegant, so IMHO, the one to have is the 2003 XKR400, which had the original styling but all of the 4.2 upgrades, and for some reason particularly hot engines.

The 4.2 was carried forward to the X150, and then replaced with the 5.0, which is a great engine, and more powerful, no question. I think that in general the 4.2-S models command the highest X100 prices. Would I have an X150 over an X100 4.2-S? No, I wouldn't. The X150 is a faster car, it is aluminium, it looks fabulous, but for all that I found it a little disappointing. I owned a late XK Dynamic R convertible for a while. Again, the one, along with the XK-RS, to have IMHO. But though it was extremely fast, it was also smooth, quiet and soft in feel, so after an hour or so you could have been in an XF. Maybe I'm wrong but in my view it lacks character in comparison with the X100.

The comparison with the 2.0 and 3.0 Capris is very apt, but I take different lessons from it. I drove both in the day. The 3.0 had more power but it was nose heavy and tail happy. The 2.0 was a far better balanced car if you were going to drift it through the corners, and it would have been my choice between the two, and I would expect long term values to reflect this, even if I am a voice in the wilderness.

Yes the V8 F-Types are gutsy, sonorous and powerful, I don't fault them for a moment. I might buy one yet. But I tracked the V6S and V8S back to back in 2013-14, and IMHO the V6S was marginally the better balanced car, and did not seem in any way down on power.

I will agree on one thing, If you are buying an XJ-S you want a V12, for all sorts of reasons, and further you want a pre-facelift coupe.

PPF is I think an issue, if you compare the earlier F-Types with the later. The earlier ones are an absolute hoot. The same thing, unfortunately, applies to the Aston Martin DB11. Still a great car, but the MY22 model, which was upgraded to 530 hp, but had PPF which has seriously downgraded the aural quality.

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
craigjm said:
I would not be surprised or around 2035 the price of all classics actually plummets and the cars we thought might become classics after 2010 fail to materialise...Maybe I am just doom mongering but I see a dying market for classics literally as those of us over 45 literally die off and those under 25 now become the main drivers in society. Let’s see.
I will put the opposite case:-

1. The case for EV's remains a political project which has departed from reality. By 2030 we will be lucky if the UK is still the same political entity, the EU as well, we are likely to have far larger problems to deal with, and the politicians who made these ludicrous commitments will be long forgotten.
2. The early Teslas are now suffering from battery failure, requiring full replacement. Apart from the cost, the environmental implications of replacing these are horrific. And what do you do with the old ones? The wokies suggest converting them into bookshelves or raised garden planters.
3. We don't have remotely sufficient power generation or charging capacity for EV's. It is not a matter of 'making the switch'. Once many more EV's hit the road, it is going to be a choice between driving and not driving.
4. While it is a pity that the old Top Gear self-destructed, I still see a lot of very positive reaction on the roads and streets to nice cars, and not just from oldsters.
5. 14 years on from EV's becoming commercially available, the technology is still not adequate, so why take a step backwards.
6. The loss of the ICE automotive industries and their supply chains, still innovative industries, is going to be catastrophic. EV platforms are going to be made by firms like Ree in Israel and the USA.
7. If we are going to accept governance by eco-Nazis they are going to lead us down a range of entirely impractical and unrealistic avenues which can only be maintained by totalitarianism, and I see clear signs of this happening already.
8. CO2 is an entirely false target. The real problems are deforestation and pollution, neither of which is being seriously addressed.
Synthetic fuel will remain available, Petrol and Diesel will remain available, particularly outwith the UK. I for one will be following the fuel.


cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
craigjm said:
This is the issue that I have with a lot of this “knowledge”. Often it’s fueled by people reading one incident of failure and then when someone asks a question on a forum it’s trotted out as a serious issue. Bottom line is for most of these things we have no real idea the scale of the problem because people only talk about failures on forums, these people are only a small sample of the real owners and the company concerned never release warranty and reliability data so it’s statistically very hard to actually say “x model has issues with…” with any kind of real validity. I don’t think anyone will deny it doesn’t happen but scale is just unavailable
Craig - yes there are some minor issues which are as you describe, but those particular problems were huge, not fictional. I owned an early XK8 which failed due to Nikasil liner failure - the car would not maintain compression, so, essentially, would not start. Jaguar fitted a replacement engine. It was prone to affect cars in areas where the sulphur content in fuel was high and the cars were mainly used for short commuting trips, this had been the case for the previous owner of my car. You will be lucky to find an early XK8 whose engine has not been replaced. Plastic TCT's were a disaster, most have now been replaced. The folded plate under the floor pan which performed some function during the build process and was then folded back has, I would say with confidence, caused corrosion in every single 4.0 XK8 produced. I have never seen one that was NOT affected.

craigjm

17,912 posts

199 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
craigjm said:
I would not be surprised or around 2035 the price of all classics actually plummets and the cars we thought might become classics after 2010 fail to materialise...Maybe I am just doom mongering but I see a dying market for classics literally as those of us over 45 literally die off and those under 25 now become the main drivers in society. Let’s see.
I will put the opposite case:-

1. The case for EV's remains a political project which has departed from reality. By 2030 we will be lucky if the UK is still the same political entity, the EU as well, we are likely to have far larger problems to deal with, and the politicians who made these ludicrous commitments will be long forgotten.
2. The early Teslas are now suffering from battery failure, requiring full replacement. Apart from the cost, the environmental implications of replacing these are horrific. And what do you do with the old ones? The wokies suggest converting them into bookshelves or raised garden planters.
3. We don't have remotely sufficient power generation or charging capacity for EV's. It is not a matter of 'making the switch'. Once many more EV's hit the road, it is going to be a choice between driving and not driving.
4. While it is a pity that the old Top Gear self-destructed, I still see a lot of very positive reaction on the roads and streets to nice cars, and not just from oldsters.
5. 14 years on from EV's becoming commercially available, the technology is still not adequate, so why take a step backwards.
6. The loss of the ICE automotive industries and their supply chains, still innovative industries, is going to be catastrophic. EV platforms are going to be made by firms like Ree in Israel and the USA.
7. If we are going to accept governance by eco-Nazis they are going to lead us down a range of entirely impractical and unrealistic avenues which can only be maintained by totalitarianism, and I see clear signs of this happening already.
8. CO2 is an entirely false target. The real problems are deforestation and pollution, neither of which is being seriously addressed.
Synthetic fuel will remain available, Petrol and Diesel will remain available, particularly outwith the UK. I for one will be following the fuel.
Yes I think we know all that. Its not really the opposite case its just a list of why we shouldnt go electric. I am not a fan of electric but we also have to remember that manufacturers model cycles and development cycles are such that they are having to go full pelt towards electric like it or not in the current design phases and the next model cycles. We could end up in a right old mess to be fair with all the manufacturers now geared up for and selling electrics and then law is then changed in favour of e-fuels for instance. It is this level of uncertainty which is why I say that in terms of classics past performance cannot foresee future projection. If E-fuels are eventually approved and can be made on the scale required and the price desired then Tesla's business model dies overnight. The problem is that unless that decision is made very soon then every other major manufacturers business dies overnight too.

In addition none of your points address the tailing off of the desire to drive amongst the post millenial generation z and beyond

Edited by craigjm on Thursday 30th March 16:08

reddiesel

1,902 posts

46 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
As was pointed out, the X100 was launched in 1996 with 4.0 AJ-V8 engine. True, it had a number of famous problems. Nikasil, and that was widespread, not a myth. However, Jaguar replaced the affected engines FOC. Plastic timing chain tensioners, failure of which could and often did lunch the engine, had two successive upgrades to solve the problem. Also, there were corrosion issues with the 4.0 - I don't believe that you will find any 4.0 which has not had its floorpans replaced or still has rotten floorpans. All that can be sorted. It's not what I meant. The 4.2 introduced from 2002 was a gutsier more solidly built car. The earlier design was more elegant, so IMHO, the one to have is the 2003 XKR400, which had the original styling but all of the 4.2 upgrades, and for some reason particularly hot engines.

The 4.2 was carried forward to the X150, and then replaced with the 5.0, which is a great engine, and more powerful, no question. I think that in general the 4.2-S models command the highest X100 prices. Would I have an X150 over an X100 4.2-S? No, I wouldn't. The X150 is a faster car, it is aluminium, it looks fabulous, but for all that I found it a little disappointing. I owned a late XK Dynamic R convertible for a while. Again, the one, along with the XK-RS, to have IMHO. But though it was extremely fast, it was also smooth, quiet and soft in feel, so after an hour or so you could have been in an XF. Maybe I'm wrong but in my view it lacks character in comparison with the X100.

The comparison with the 2.0 and 3.0 Capris is very apt, but I take different lessons from it. I drove both in the day. The 3.0 had more power but it was nose heavy and tail happy. The 2.0 was a far better balanced car if you were going to drift it through the corners, and it would have been my choice between the two, and I would expect long term values to reflect this, even if I am a voice in the wilderness.

Yes the V8 F-Types are gutsy, sonorous and powerful, I don't fault them for a moment. I might buy one yet. But I tracked the V6S and V8S back to back in 2013-14, and IMHO the V6S was marginally the better balanced car, and did not seem in any way down on power.

I will agree on one thing, If you are buying an XJ-S you want a V12, for all sorts of reasons, and further you want a pre-facelift coupe.

PPF is I think an issue, if you compare the earlier F-Types with the later. The earlier ones are an absolute hoot. The same thing, unfortunately, applies to the Aston Martin DB11. Still a great car, but the MY22 model, which was upgraded to 530 hp, but had PPF which has seriously downgraded the aural quality.
This is all very well and I agree with much of it . My initial post was about future residuals and nothing to do with how well a car did or didn't drive.
I find it hard to believe that future owners of classic F types will be concerned with such a thing and this is my point . Let me raise the Ford comparison once more . An Escort MK2 RS2000 is infinitely more desirable than an Escort Ghia and for the typical buyer its nothing to do with how each car drives or handles . Simply put one is more aspirational than the other and in my view its the same with the V6 S F type and the SVR F type and future values are sure to reflect that reality .

craigjm

17,912 posts

199 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
I think it’s always the halo model cars in a range that do become the real classics in general. Who wants a cooking BMW E30 but they will fall over themselves for an M3 for instance.

Personally I wouldn’t buy a car now though hoping that it might become a classic in 15 years time.

cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
craigjm said:
Yes I think we know all that. Its not really the opposite case its just a list of why we shouldnt go electric. I am not a fan of electric but we also have to remember that manufacturers model cycles and development cycles are such that they are having to go full pelt towards electric like it or not in the current design phases and the next model cycles. We could end up in a right old mess to be fair with all the manufacturers now geared up for and selling electrics and then law is then changed in favour of e-fuels for instance. It is this level of uncertainty which is why I say that in terms of classics past performance cannot foresee future projection. If E-fuels are eventually approved and can be made on the scale required and the price desired then Tesla's business model dies overnight. The problem is that unless that decision is made very soon then every other major manufacturers business dies overnight too.

In addition none of your points address the tailing off of the desire to drive amongst the post millenial generation z and beyond
Yes, I was conscious of that. I would add that:-

1. The reasons we should not go electric are the reasons that the 'push to EV' is going to fail, meaning that efficient ICE stays and with them the classics. That's probably why I did not focus so much on the love of classics. We are at 2023, and the cracks are showing already. What do you think it is going to be like in 2028?
2. I know plenty of millennials and their attitude seems to be 'I want the Lamborghini now, not in ten years', so they are rather more focussed on making the necessary than we were.
3. We buy cars because we love them, and if they don't appreciate, too f-----g bad.
4. Curiously, the cars we love tend to be the ones that appreciate. Funny that.
5. If millennials don't like cars how come games like Grand Theft Auto and others sell so well? It seems to me to come back to point 2.
6. If the only transport you can buy in 2031 is a washing machine on wheels, then is it not going to be tempting to buy something exciting which it is still legal to drive? I would have thought so, but i don't truly care.
7. sales of 'specialist cars', including classics are going like a steam train.

I respect Ratan Tata, but I think that he has been drawn into two disasters by politicians and wokies on his team. I've said this before, but it bears repeating. They bet the farm on diesel, on political direction, and lost. They are betting the farm on electric, on political direction, and they are going to lose again. They are going to run out of farms. They can't be first to the post with electric cars because the tech just isn't there, and they are already surrounded by everyone else trying to do the same thing. If they are not careful the European auto industry is going to crash, due mainly to following the guidance of politicians who a. don't understand themselves, b. are congenitally corrupt and c. won't be around when the manure hits the fan, which it is obviously going to do. Because they say it is the future, doesn't mean that it is. They are not clairvoyant, many of them are not even intelligent. Most of them are riding nonsensical political agendas because like good old Al Gore of undistinguished memory, they hope they are going to take them to a position of power which they can milk for everything its worth.

I've also said this before. The auto industry should just tell the politicians where to stick it, and move wholesale to China, where none of this is an issue, their efforts might be appreciated and the growing claims industry would be impotent. If Geely owned Aston Martin and had access to Mercedes technology, what do they need the UK for? Do people really buy Astons now because they are 'handcrafted' in Charlie's Crazy Kingdom?

As it happens I think that the mismanagement of our economies, waging of ill considered wars which we are guaranteed to lose or die in the process, and the equally misguided push to extreme liberalism, identity politics and misconceived environmentalism is shortly going to land us in such a s--tstorm that EV's will be the least of anyone's worries. An F-Type will be a great comfort in that eventuality.


cardigankid

8,849 posts

211 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
reddiesel said:
My initial post was about future residuals and nothing to do with how well a car did or didn't drive.
That is where you are fundamentally wrong, you cannot separate out these two factors. Crap cars won't be collectible, except by the ignorant, and they will soon get weeded out. Simples.

akirk

5,377 posts

113 months

Thursday 30th March 2023
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
reddiesel said:
My initial post was about future residuals and nothing to do with how well a car did or didn't drive.
That is where you are fundamentally wrong, you cannot separate out these two factors. Crap cars won't be collectible, except by the ignorant, and they will soon get weeded out. Simples.
but defining a crap car is perhaps subjective...
all three series landrovers I owned were by all objective terms fairly crap cars - but emotionally and subjectively they were wonderful wink

reddiesel

1,902 posts

46 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
That is where you are fundamentally wrong, you cannot separate out these two factors. Crap cars won't be collectible, except by the ignorant, and they will soon get weeded out. Simples.
No it’s not simple nor am I fundamentally wrong either . A classic car is as much an emotional purchase as anything else and a quick walk around the NEE Classic Show will show plenty of crap cars with thriving ownership clubs and enthusiastic owners . The halo cars as my friend above tend to make the money and whether that’s Countach over Urracco or SVR over a V8 S it’s always been largely the same

craigjm

17,912 posts

199 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
Indeed Reddiesel who would have thought people would be collecting Allegros and Metros etc but they do have a following. There is no real definition of classic car and therefore to one person it’s classic and to another it’s just old. It doesn’t have to be worry mega money to be in the classic camp for many.

akirk

5,377 posts

113 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
reddiesel said:
cardigankid said:
That is where you are fundamentally wrong, you cannot separate out these two factors. Crap cars won't be collectible, except by the ignorant, and they will soon get weeded out. Simples.
No it’s not simple nor am I fundamentally wrong either . A classic car is as much an emotional purchase as anything else and a quick walk around the NEE Classic Show will show plenty of crap cars with thriving ownership clubs and enthusiastic owners . The halo cars as my friend above tend to make the money and whether that’s Countach over Urracco or SVR over a V8 S it’s always been largely the same
Possibly for some people and some cars - but I would argue it is not always that simple…

My e39 M5 was clearly a better car in every way than any other e39, so no doubt about it being the halo model, but for some the v6 ftype is a better car than then v8 or svr versions - it is the reason why I bought a v6 when I could have afforded / chosen the others - the v6 has more than enough power, sounds great, handles better - there is nothing the v8 or svr would give me above the v6 instead I would ‘gain’ unusable power / more anti-social noise / a car which handles less well in the wet / etc and pay more for it…

Similarly I preferred the straight 6 xjs (had two) and you can go through a whole back catalogue of cars where it is not always about the bigger engine - go back far enough and hierarchy in models might have been as much about options and interior cabin as about engine

So, while I understand the instinctive feel that the halo models will out perform the lower models financially, I don’t think it applies to all cars and there are plenty of cars out there where it is all about condition - a well looked after low mileage v6 will out perform a scraggy v8 for a while to come

piquet

614 posts

256 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
just out of interest, can you remove the ppf? would it give you the noise back and would it fail anything, just thinking....

reddiesel

1,902 posts

46 months

Friday 31st March 2023
quotequote all
akirk said:
Possibly for some people and some cars - but I would argue it is not always that simple…

My e39 M5 was clearly a better car in every way than any other e39, so no doubt about it being the halo model, but for some the v6 ftype is a better car than then v8 or svr versions - it is the reason why I bought a v6 when I could have afforded / chosen the others - the v6 has more than enough power, sounds great, handles better - there is nothing the v8 or svr would give me above the v6 instead I would ‘gain’ unusable power / more anti-social noise / a car which handles less well in the wet / etc and pay more for it…

Similarly I preferred the straight 6 xjs (had two) and you can go through a whole back catalogue of cars where it is not always about the bigger engine - go back far enough and hierarchy in models might have been as much about options and interior cabin as about engine

So, while I understand the instinctive feel that the halo models will out perform the lower models financially, I don’t think it applies to all cars and there are plenty of cars out there where it is all about condition - a well looked after low mileage v6 will out perform a scraggy v8 for a while to come
You are right its not that simple , there are many factors that make a Car a Classic and many factors that cause the values to appreciate . Its not my experience that the V8 R and SVR power is unusable nor are they anti social when it comes to noise . They also in my experience handle just as well as a V6 both my cars being AWD . In the end this is purely my experience and opinion and other Owners may have a different point of view . All this said I would say the V6 power is more than adequate and good luck to all who own them .
Jaguars historically have never been great Investments and I think the F type is hampered additionally by " model dilution ", I long ago lost track of all the various models and their place in the line up .
I think the SVR F type is a nailed on certainty to outperform all other Jaguar F types when it comes to future residuals and its my belief you probably agree with that ?