XKR battery and Jaguar Assistance
Discussion
I've owned my 2007 XKR for a couple of months and only driven it once or twice a week and not yet on a long journey. Last week I saw the first sign of a battery problem when the main display screen wouldn't light up until I restarted the engine. Then today, when I tried to power up, the engine gave a half hearted whimper and died, leaving all the alert lights flashing and I wasn't even able to persuade the (keyless) ignition to turn off.
I rang Jaguar Assistance and was astonished when their LandRover turned into my drive 25 minutes later. First time I had ever called them and they sure got off on the right foot with me. The engineer said that it was an electronics problem rather than a faulty battery but the battery was flat nonetheless so he had to jump start the engine (couldn't open the boot so had to take off the numberplate and use the key) and leave it running for 20 minutes before he could run any diagnostics. He showed me his test readout which gave the battery a perfect rating with zero drain.
But isn't it almost impossible for me to leave anything running so as to cause the battery to drain, I asked. Yes, he said. This was caused by an electronics failure, he said, whereby the management system wrongly thought that one of the 80 or so circuits hadn't been properly shut down. Once he had done a hard reset, the fault rectified itself. It's not uncommon, he said.
So, if and when it happens again, can I jump start it myself? Not advised, he said. Just give us a call and we'll come out.
That's all very well but I need to keep extending my warranty to have that luxury. Probably worth doing anyway though -- especially as I was bowled over by the service.
Anyone else had this battery management failure?
I rang Jaguar Assistance and was astonished when their LandRover turned into my drive 25 minutes later. First time I had ever called them and they sure got off on the right foot with me. The engineer said that it was an electronics problem rather than a faulty battery but the battery was flat nonetheless so he had to jump start the engine (couldn't open the boot so had to take off the numberplate and use the key) and leave it running for 20 minutes before he could run any diagnostics. He showed me his test readout which gave the battery a perfect rating with zero drain.
But isn't it almost impossible for me to leave anything running so as to cause the battery to drain, I asked. Yes, he said. This was caused by an electronics failure, he said, whereby the management system wrongly thought that one of the 80 or so circuits hadn't been properly shut down. Once he had done a hard reset, the fault rectified itself. It's not uncommon, he said.
So, if and when it happens again, can I jump start it myself? Not advised, he said. Just give us a call and we'll come out.
That's all very well but I need to keep extending my warranty to have that luxury. Probably worth doing anyway though -- especially as I was bowled over by the service.
Anyone else had this battery management failure?
So what circuit is faulty?
Had a Range Rover which kept getting a flat battery. Even when closed and locked, there was a draw on the battery. Long and the short of it was that a nearby motion sensor for a security light ran at a similar freq to the key fob. So the car kept thinking the light was me coming to unlock it and so kept energising the car in anticipation. Just a thought was all.......
Had a Range Rover which kept getting a flat battery. Even when closed and locked, there was a draw on the battery. Long and the short of it was that a nearby motion sensor for a security light ran at a similar freq to the key fob. So the car kept thinking the light was me coming to unlock it and so kept energising the car in anticipation. Just a thought was all.......
Well... I've had similar problems with my ex-demo XKR. Alarm bells rang slightly when I had to set the one touch windows myself when I got it, meaning it had had a flat battery already. Other odd things were that sometimes the centre screen would get stuck on the XKR logo screen unless you turned the engine off, locked the car, unlocked and restarted it. Mostly it would work normally, but sometimes too there would be no audio until you pressed the audio button on the screen, even though it was on when last used. However, I only had it a couple of weeks before going away, so didn't have time to pursue it.
Anyway we went away for 6 days and on our return it was totally dead. Called Jaguar Assistance, they jump started it to put a bit of power in the battery, then locked it with some monitoring equipment attached to see what would happen. A 1 amp spike every 1-2 seconds in conjunction with the sat nav DVD drive repeatedly churning as it initialised itself is what happened, the car was trailered to the nearest dealer for a proper fix and I was without it for 4 days while they messed about with it. They assured me it was fixed, then....
A few weeks later, even though I had been using the car two or three times a day, out of the blue it just didn't have enough power to turn the engine over. Called Jaguar Assistance again, exact same fault diagnosed. This time it went back to the supplying dealer, who had it for two weeks, partly because I told them if it wasn't fixed this time, the Sale of Goods Act was going to get an airing. They said they reprogrammed a few things to "help it shut down faster" and assured me it wasn't doing it anymore. They also replaced the battery to be on the safe side. Whatever they did cured the weirdness with the centre screen locking up or not playing audio on starting, so perhaps it really is fixed.
However, a couple of weeks on, and is it my imagination, or is the engine turning over slightly slower every day? I do hope not because I love the car, but if the same thing happens again, that's it for me.
One thing which is bad design is that when you start the car, all the peripheral stuff comes on before the engine even starts. I mean the automatic lights, wipers, and both heated screens too if it's cold out. Surely these should come on once the engine fires, rather than when it's trying to start? That's what everyone else does.
Anyway we went away for 6 days and on our return it was totally dead. Called Jaguar Assistance, they jump started it to put a bit of power in the battery, then locked it with some monitoring equipment attached to see what would happen. A 1 amp spike every 1-2 seconds in conjunction with the sat nav DVD drive repeatedly churning as it initialised itself is what happened, the car was trailered to the nearest dealer for a proper fix and I was without it for 4 days while they messed about with it. They assured me it was fixed, then....
A few weeks later, even though I had been using the car two or three times a day, out of the blue it just didn't have enough power to turn the engine over. Called Jaguar Assistance again, exact same fault diagnosed. This time it went back to the supplying dealer, who had it for two weeks, partly because I told them if it wasn't fixed this time, the Sale of Goods Act was going to get an airing. They said they reprogrammed a few things to "help it shut down faster" and assured me it wasn't doing it anymore. They also replaced the battery to be on the safe side. Whatever they did cured the weirdness with the centre screen locking up or not playing audio on starting, so perhaps it really is fixed.
However, a couple of weeks on, and is it my imagination, or is the engine turning over slightly slower every day? I do hope not because I love the car, but if the same thing happens again, that's it for me.
One thing which is bad design is that when you start the car, all the peripheral stuff comes on before the engine even starts. I mean the automatic lights, wipers, and both heated screens too if it's cold out. Surely these should come on once the engine fires, rather than when it's trying to start? That's what everyone else does.
When I picked ours up I was warned that we'd need to make sure we never parked the car without the handbrake engaged as that would flatten the battery (presumably it puts the electronics into some kind of 'sleep' mode?).
That said, it's had six weeks of trundling back and forth to the station car park, often with heated deats and wheel switched on, with no complaints so far.
That said, it's had six weeks of trundling back and forth to the station car park, often with heated deats and wheel switched on, with no complaints so far.
steve-p said:
Other odd things were that sometimes the centre screen would get stuck on the XKR logo screen unless you turned the engine off, locked the car, unlocked and restarted it.
Sadly, I had to call Jaguar Assistance out again yesterday because my Info Screen was locked onto the leaper logo, even after half a dozen restarts (but I didn't try locking the car...) Different chap this time and he spent a while on the phone to the fount of all knowledge and then told me that there was a software update for the Info Screen which would require 2-3 hours at the garage. Booked in for next week so hopefully this will cure my screen problem.I've asked them to check my battery at the same time, even though it got a clean bill of health from the first JA technician. I'm somewhat alarmed to hear that the SatNav CD can apparently generate spikes when the car is locked. I will ask them to look into that, just in case. I know that my PC keeps polling the CD drive continuously to check whether a disc has been inserted... but not when it's powered down! My battery did check out a little low (12.2v when he was looking for 12.75v) but I had been sat fiddling for a while in the car without the engine running -- and as you rightly point out, the circuits which open when the ignition turns on can be very draining after a few minutes.
He advised me to leave the car running for 20 minutes as I wasn't planning to take her out anywhere. Is that as effective in charging the battery as going for a drive, I asked. Yes, no difference, he replied, which surprised me.
Hopefully the visit to the garage will sort it out. My locked Info Screen wouldn't have caused my battery to drain, my man said, so there may be another problem with the battery. A new one would be nice.
I think my problems started with the first frost in Berkshire this winter. My garage is a barn-style thing with an open front but it protects the car from any signs of frost. But maybe the battery, which is at the exposed end of the garage doesn't like the cold!
It's possible that the screen locking up is a symptom of a failing battery rather than anything more sinister. I had an E Class once which was a few years old and in very good shape but all of a sudden, random warning lights started coming on about ABS, airbags, engine management etc. I was just about to book it into the dealer when the battery just died totally without warning - it had appeared absolutely fine up until then. After fitting a new battery, everything worked perfectly again for a couple of years until I sold it! I think modern cars are a lot more sensitive to battery condition than they used to be.
They replaced the battery on my XKR because the technician said they have a test to indicate battery health which has a range of acceptable values, and mine was right at the low end. Probably because it had been flat a few times. They also said that the DVD drive having a fit might happen when the battery is very low, but I don't buy that. Why would it even have power when everything is off and the car is locked? The bottom line is I don't think they ever really worked out what the fault was, and they just hope they have fixed it by pulling things apart and putting them back together again, changing the battery and reprogramming some of the onboard systems. Which they may well have done - fingers crossed. I don't want a Vauxhall Insignia again for two weeks - 42 mpg was admittedly quite good compared to 19 mpg but somehow not quite as nice to drive
They replaced the battery on my XKR because the technician said they have a test to indicate battery health which has a range of acceptable values, and mine was right at the low end. Probably because it had been flat a few times. They also said that the DVD drive having a fit might happen when the battery is very low, but I don't buy that. Why would it even have power when everything is off and the car is locked? The bottom line is I don't think they ever really worked out what the fault was, and they just hope they have fixed it by pulling things apart and putting them back together again, changing the battery and reprogramming some of the onboard systems. Which they may well have done - fingers crossed. I don't want a Vauxhall Insignia again for two weeks - 42 mpg was admittedly quite good compared to 19 mpg but somehow not quite as nice to drive
chris_w said:
When I picked ours up I was warned that we'd need to make sure we never parked the car without the handbrake engaged as that would flatten the battery (presumably it puts the electronics into some kind of 'sleep' mode?).
Blimey - first I've heard of that? Can anyone else corroborate? I never manually apply the handbrake.My car's playing up again. A couple of days ago I had the thing again where there's no sound from the audio system when starting the car, even though the audio system is on - it's showing the radio frequency on the home screen. Press the audio button on the screen, and it springs into life again. Then tonight, something really weird. I started the car and got all sorts of messages flash past rapidly on the screen in between the instruments. I couldn't read them they went past so quickly but the last one was something about dynamic mode being disabled. Everything appeared normal after a few seconds though, except the airbag warning light stayed on. I was only going a mile or so so I decided to drive it anyway. When I drove off, I discovered that there was no power steering, or at least not much. After a few hours when I came to drive back, it started fine and the power steering was back to normal. The airbag warning light seems to be permanently lit though.
This morning's fun and games was warning messages Adaptive Dynamics Fault, E-Diff Disabled and Winter Mode Disabled, which made for some sideways fun - quite enjoyed it without all the nanny stuff actually On the way home, it was all working again. The airbag light is still permanently on though so I guess it's back to the dealer in the new year.
On the way home, it was all working again. The airbag light is still permanently on though so I guess it's back to the dealer in the new year.pr100 said:
chris_w said:
When I picked ours up I was warned that we'd need to make sure we never parked the car without the handbrake engaged as that would flatten the battery (presumably it puts the electronics into some kind of 'sleep' mode?).
Blimey - first I've heard of that? Can anyone else corroborate? I never manually apply the handbrake.Not exactly up-to-date but an interesting read on electronic park brake "secrets":
http://aftermarketbusiness.search-autoparts.com/af...
http://aftermarketbusiness.search-autoparts.com/af...
Given the low usage of the car i'd say you have all the symptoms of a duff battery,have you considered an optimate battery conditioner, I used to have one on my bike when I didn't use it in the winter, you leave it permanently connected and it charges and discharges the battery keeping it at the optimum charge
if you know anyone with a costco membership, the Bosch silver battery for my XK8 was about £80 + vat IIRC if it does need replacing
as it's causing you so much grief it'd be the thing I replace first to see if the problems went away, just because they're Jaguar technicians it doesn't mean they know what they're talking about
if you know anyone with a costco membership, the Bosch silver battery for my XK8 was about £80 + vat IIRC if it does need replacing
as it's causing you so much grief it'd be the thing I replace first to see if the problems went away, just because they're Jaguar technicians it doesn't mean they know what they're talking about
chris_w said:
pr100 said:
chris_w said:
When I picked ours up I was warned that we'd need to make sure we never parked the car without the handbrake engaged as that would flatten the battery (presumably it puts the electronics into some kind of 'sleep' mode?).
Blimey - first I've heard of that? Can anyone else corroborate? I never manually apply the handbrake.In normal daily use, this would have no impact upon the battery, he said, but in cases like mine where the car is only driven once or twice a week, it could drain the battery.
I expressed surprise that Jaguar hadn't issued an addendum to the owner's manual to explain this -- and that I could find no reference to it anywhere on the interweb. But I'm going to change my habits and apply the brake before shutting down.
My '08 Jaguar XKR (4.2 supercharged)'s battery died this week. Surprising, as I had driven it 100miles on Tuesday, but let's suppose that this was driver error and the door wasn't shut properly or somesuch.
The symptoms were that the key fob wouldn't work. Couldn't unlock the car. No alarm light either. Dead as dodo.
I found it surprisingly hard to get access to the car (with few resources on the web) so thought I'd post my findings, several hours later. And many thanks to the AA who were very helpful (tho my lad was inexperienced in this particular model).
The mechanical metal key in the fob can be used to gain access to the car via the passenger (LHS in UK) door. You need to prise off the key-icon cover on the door handle; this reveals a normal key hole and the door is opened straightforwardly. The driver's side door does *not* have this facility.
The boot (trunk) is openable too via the metal key. To do this you need to remove the license / registration plate. A key hole is behind, on the right hand side. Other posts refer to you often getting dirt/etc in this and needing alcohol/etc to clear it; I could see why this is common tho my boot opened with no trouble.
The battery is within the back of the car, essentially just behind the 'back seats'. Access is via the boot. You need to remove quite a bit of the lining, and the roof protector blind (in a convertible) (which is a pain to get back in to place). The battery is non-standard. Mine thankfully doesn't need to be replaced (fingers crossed).
Once the battery was fired up, the alarm started sounding. You need your key to hand to disable this via the unlock button.
As the manual (and other posts indicated) you will need to reset your windows too. The manual is pretty clear on this; basically you wind it all the way down, then re-press the 'down' button for 2 seconds; then wind up completely and re-press the up button for 2 secs. For each window. I found until I did this, the windows wouldn't shut after the roof was closed.
The rest of the car's electronics didn't seem too badly affected. But I haven't been anywhere in the car yet ;-)
The AA chap had a bunch of diagnostic equipment. With his help we determined (apparently) that other internet posts are correct: without applying the parking brake, the car does not fully turn itself off. I haven't used the parking brake for 9 months (since when the brakes fused after leaving the car undriven for 3 weeks in the snow) and, tho I drive the car on 3-4 50+ mile journeys per month, I suspect this was a contributory factor. We found that the battery was having about 0.25A drained from it several minutes after being turned off, with no parking brake, but only 0.03A when the parking brake was applied. The AA's warning threshold was 0.29A (or higher) but he wasn't too happy at 0.25A and pushed me to figure out what was still on; I found references to the parking brake issue on the web and I believe they are right. I assume the alarm needs 0.03A but heaven knows what's staying on when the parking brake isn't applied. A word of warning.
The symptoms were that the key fob wouldn't work. Couldn't unlock the car. No alarm light either. Dead as dodo.
I found it surprisingly hard to get access to the car (with few resources on the web) so thought I'd post my findings, several hours later. And many thanks to the AA who were very helpful (tho my lad was inexperienced in this particular model).
The mechanical metal key in the fob can be used to gain access to the car via the passenger (LHS in UK) door. You need to prise off the key-icon cover on the door handle; this reveals a normal key hole and the door is opened straightforwardly. The driver's side door does *not* have this facility.
The boot (trunk) is openable too via the metal key. To do this you need to remove the license / registration plate. A key hole is behind, on the right hand side. Other posts refer to you often getting dirt/etc in this and needing alcohol/etc to clear it; I could see why this is common tho my boot opened with no trouble.
The battery is within the back of the car, essentially just behind the 'back seats'. Access is via the boot. You need to remove quite a bit of the lining, and the roof protector blind (in a convertible) (which is a pain to get back in to place). The battery is non-standard. Mine thankfully doesn't need to be replaced (fingers crossed).
Once the battery was fired up, the alarm started sounding. You need your key to hand to disable this via the unlock button.
As the manual (and other posts indicated) you will need to reset your windows too. The manual is pretty clear on this; basically you wind it all the way down, then re-press the 'down' button for 2 seconds; then wind up completely and re-press the up button for 2 secs. For each window. I found until I did this, the windows wouldn't shut after the roof was closed.
The rest of the car's electronics didn't seem too badly affected. But I haven't been anywhere in the car yet ;-)
The AA chap had a bunch of diagnostic equipment. With his help we determined (apparently) that other internet posts are correct: without applying the parking brake, the car does not fully turn itself off. I haven't used the parking brake for 9 months (since when the brakes fused after leaving the car undriven for 3 weeks in the snow) and, tho I drive the car on 3-4 50+ mile journeys per month, I suspect this was a contributory factor. We found that the battery was having about 0.25A drained from it several minutes after being turned off, with no parking brake, but only 0.03A when the parking brake was applied. The AA's warning threshold was 0.29A (or higher) but he wasn't too happy at 0.25A and pushed me to figure out what was still on; I found references to the parking brake issue on the web and I believe they are right. I assume the alarm needs 0.03A but heaven knows what's staying on when the parking brake isn't applied. A word of warning.
I am still finding it hard to believe that applying an electronic parking brake has an effect on the car state when shut down and locked. If that really is the case, then why whould they not automatically apply it when you put the transmission in Park, or when you lock it? They have thought about things like this because if you turn the engine off when not in Park, it selects that for you automatically. Also it turns off the parking brake automatically when you drive off.
I'm still having some weird software glitches with my car. I had a recent problem with the airbag warning light being on and their solution was to reprogram everything in the entire car with the latest version. They also said there was some sort of recall related to electronics or software but they didn't have time to carry it out, and since it was not safety related, it could wait until the service next April. They were reluctant to tell me what the actual recall was though. Another strange thing that happens infrequently is that occasionally audio is off when starting the car and you have to turn it on. Also, the weirdest of all, about once every few months when starting the car all the heating and seat heating controls are missing from the screen.
I'm still having some weird software glitches with my car. I had a recent problem with the airbag warning light being on and their solution was to reprogram everything in the entire car with the latest version. They also said there was some sort of recall related to electronics or software but they didn't have time to carry it out, and since it was not safety related, it could wait until the service next April. They were reluctant to tell me what the actual recall was though. Another strange thing that happens infrequently is that occasionally audio is off when starting the car and you have to turn it on. Also, the weirdest of all, about once every few months when starting the car all the heating and seat heating controls are missing from the screen.
Thanks for your finely crafted post, wreeve, including apparent confirmation that the park brake battery drain is higher when it is not applied. I would simply add that a thorough battery drain diagnosis needs to be conducted and logged over an extended period, eg overnight, and that a quick roadside test won't give the complete picture. That's because some of the circuits cut in and out at lengthy intervals, I understand.
Did you not have access to JA? While I have always found the AA to be good, they are not as knowledgeable about Jags as JA, and they can also be a lot slower to arrive on the scene!
FWIW, my XKR no longer suffers from the issues described in my OP. But I can't be sure which of two remedial actions worked, or whether it was a combination of the two.
I sent the car back to the supplying dealer (HA Fox, Guildford) for a thorough FOC battery test but it came back (the same day) with a clean bill of health. Not satisfied, I then sent it to my nearest dealer, Lancaster Reading, and paid for a repeat test - which they told me would require overnight logging. This time they reported that the JaguarWatch tracker was the cause of excessive drain and so I asked them to cut the wires to the device. I hadn't even known that the tracker was fitted and when I asked HA Fox about the different test results, their reply was that they hadn't known a tracker was fitted either -- which was odd since they sold the car to me. At least they did eventually agree to pay my Lancaster bill.
So, at around the same time, I disconnected the tracker and I started to apply the park brake every time I parked up. Since then, no problems.
Did you not have access to JA? While I have always found the AA to be good, they are not as knowledgeable about Jags as JA, and they can also be a lot slower to arrive on the scene!
FWIW, my XKR no longer suffers from the issues described in my OP. But I can't be sure which of two remedial actions worked, or whether it was a combination of the two.
I sent the car back to the supplying dealer (HA Fox, Guildford) for a thorough FOC battery test but it came back (the same day) with a clean bill of health. Not satisfied, I then sent it to my nearest dealer, Lancaster Reading, and paid for a repeat test - which they told me would require overnight logging. This time they reported that the JaguarWatch tracker was the cause of excessive drain and so I asked them to cut the wires to the device. I hadn't even known that the tracker was fitted and when I asked HA Fox about the different test results, their reply was that they hadn't known a tracker was fitted either -- which was odd since they sold the car to me. At least they did eventually agree to pay my Lancaster bill.
So, at around the same time, I disconnected the tracker and I started to apply the park brake every time I parked up. Since then, no problems.
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