Wildcat Rover V8 in Mod Griffith chassis
Discussion
> I was surprised to find how similar the TA heads are to Wildcat.
As I understand it, the Wildcat heads were based upon Buick Stage I and Stage II V6 aftermarket cylinder heads. TA makes their own version of the Buick V6 Stage I heads and based their Rover heads on those. The original Buick V6 heads were much like the Buick 215/Rover heads. The Buick 215 aluminum V8 was introduced in 1961 and the 198 cast iron V6 was introduced a year later. Smokey Yunick redesigned the Buick V6 heads for 1979 but was constrained by what could be produced using existing production tooling. Buick introduced a "Stage I" performance version of the redesigned Buick V6 heads and a higher performance "Stage II" race head.
The Stage 1 heads were produced on production tooling and shared the OEM style combustion chamber. The Stage II got the kidney bean shaped combustion chambers. Given the popularity of the turbocharged Buick Grand National, there were several aftermarket versions of the Buick V6 Stage I heads including those from Champion and TA Performance.
> Given Wildcat started producing these heads for the Rover V8 in 1995 and TA Performance versions came to market around 2009 /2010, it would appear Ian Richardson's brain child 'Wildcat heads' are the original game changer
I think you'll find the TA Performance Buick V6 heads pre-date the Wildcat heads and the Stage I Buick V6 heads pre-date both of those.
> I have also noticed that a certain tuner in Australia is no longer promoting Wildcat products, instead he is now selling TA Heads as his product.
If you are referring to Triumph Rover Spares, TRS was the launch customer for the TA Rover heads and got the first batch of cylinder heads made. My assembled TA Rover heads have the TRS logo on them while the unassembled set do not.
> Some photos showing the Wildcat cylinder head on the left, TA version on the right.
Given that both the Wildcat and TA Rover heads are based upon the Buick V6 Stage series of heads, it's not surprising they look quite similar. The intake ports of the Wildcat heads look to be raised higher than the TA heads so would require a wider intake manifold. Years ago I received a Wildcat single plane intake manifold in exchange for some consulting work on a Rover engine. I assumed it would be similar to the Willpower I currently have but, while it looked similar, it was wider than a Rover or a Buick 300 intake. At the time, we thought it might be for a P76 but it's clear now it was for the Wildcat heads.
> I know the Wildcats are much heavier but I did not weigh them.
I weighed an unassembled TA Rover head at 27 lbs and an assembled head (with Bob's port work but no rocker arms) at 31 lbs. I previously weighed a bare 1964 aluminum Buick 300 head at 13 lbs and a completely assembled Buick 300 head (shafts, stands, rockers, bolts, plugs) at 18 lbs.
Dan Jones
As I understand it, the Wildcat heads were based upon Buick Stage I and Stage II V6 aftermarket cylinder heads. TA makes their own version of the Buick V6 Stage I heads and based their Rover heads on those. The original Buick V6 heads were much like the Buick 215/Rover heads. The Buick 215 aluminum V8 was introduced in 1961 and the 198 cast iron V6 was introduced a year later. Smokey Yunick redesigned the Buick V6 heads for 1979 but was constrained by what could be produced using existing production tooling. Buick introduced a "Stage I" performance version of the redesigned Buick V6 heads and a higher performance "Stage II" race head.
The Stage 1 heads were produced on production tooling and shared the OEM style combustion chamber. The Stage II got the kidney bean shaped combustion chambers. Given the popularity of the turbocharged Buick Grand National, there were several aftermarket versions of the Buick V6 Stage I heads including those from Champion and TA Performance.
> Given Wildcat started producing these heads for the Rover V8 in 1995 and TA Performance versions came to market around 2009 /2010, it would appear Ian Richardson's brain child 'Wildcat heads' are the original game changer
I think you'll find the TA Performance Buick V6 heads pre-date the Wildcat heads and the Stage I Buick V6 heads pre-date both of those.
> I have also noticed that a certain tuner in Australia is no longer promoting Wildcat products, instead he is now selling TA Heads as his product.
If you are referring to Triumph Rover Spares, TRS was the launch customer for the TA Rover heads and got the first batch of cylinder heads made. My assembled TA Rover heads have the TRS logo on them while the unassembled set do not.
> Some photos showing the Wildcat cylinder head on the left, TA version on the right.
Given that both the Wildcat and TA Rover heads are based upon the Buick V6 Stage series of heads, it's not surprising they look quite similar. The intake ports of the Wildcat heads look to be raised higher than the TA heads so would require a wider intake manifold. Years ago I received a Wildcat single plane intake manifold in exchange for some consulting work on a Rover engine. I assumed it would be similar to the Willpower I currently have but, while it looked similar, it was wider than a Rover or a Buick 300 intake. At the time, we thought it might be for a P76 but it's clear now it was for the Wildcat heads.
> I know the Wildcats are much heavier but I did not weigh them.
I weighed an unassembled TA Rover head at 27 lbs and an assembled head (with Bob's port work but no rocker arms) at 31 lbs. I previously weighed a bare 1964 aluminum Buick 300 head at 13 lbs and a completely assembled Buick 300 head (shafts, stands, rockers, bolts, plugs) at 18 lbs.
Dan Jones
Dan Jones said:
> I was surprised to find how similar the TA heads are to Wildcat.
As I understand it, the Wildcat heads were based upon Buick Stage I and Stage II V6 aftermarket cylinder heads. TA makes their own version of the Buick V6 Stage I heads and based their Rover heads on those. The original Buick V6 heads were much like the Buick 215/Rover heads. The Buick 215 aluminum V8 was introduced in 1961 and the 198 cast iron V6 was introduced a year later. Smokey Yunick redesigned the Buick V6 heads for 1979 but was constrained by what could be produced using existing production tooling. Buick introduced a "Stage I" performance version of the redesigned Buick V6 heads and a higher performance "Stage II" race head.
The Stage 1 heads were produced on production tooling and shared the OEM style combustion chamber. The Stage II got the kidney bean shaped combustion chambers. Given the popularity of the turbocharged Buick Grand National, there were several aftermarket versions of the Buick V6 Stage I heads including those from Champion and TA Performance.
> Given Wildcat started producing these heads for the Rover V8 in 1995 and TA Performance versions came to market around 2009 /2010, it would appear Ian Richardson's brain child 'Wildcat heads' are the original game changer
I think you'll find the TA Performance Buick V6 heads pre-date the Wildcat heads and the Stage I Buick V6 heads pre-date both of those.
> I have also noticed that a certain tuner in Australia is no longer promoting Wildcat products, instead he is now selling TA Heads as his product.
If you are referring to Triumph Rover Spares, TRS was the launch customer for the TA Rover heads and got the first batch of cylinder heads made. My assembled TA Rover heads have the TRS logo on them while the unassembled set do not.
> Some photos showing the Wildcat cylinder head on the left, TA version on the right.
Given that both the Wildcat and TA Rover heads are based upon the Buick V6 Stage series of heads, it's not surprising they look quite similar. The intake ports of the Wildcat heads look to be raised higher than the TA heads so would require a wider intake manifold. Years ago I received a Wildcat single plane intake manifold in exchange for some consulting work on a Rover engine. I assumed it would be similar to the Willpower I currently have but, while it looked similar, it was wider than a Rover or a Buick 300 intake. At the time, we thought it might be for a P76 but it's clear now it was for the Wildcat heads.
> I know the Wildcats are much heavier but I did not weigh them.
I weighed an unassembled TA Rover head at 27 lbs and an assembled head (with Bob's port work but no rocker arms) at 31 lbs. I previously weighed a bare 1964 aluminum Buick 300 head at 13 lbs and a completely assembled Buick 300 head (shafts, stands, rockers, bolts, plugs) at 18 lbs.
Dan Jones
It seems to me you are Mr TA Heads?As I understand it, the Wildcat heads were based upon Buick Stage I and Stage II V6 aftermarket cylinder heads. TA makes their own version of the Buick V6 Stage I heads and based their Rover heads on those. The original Buick V6 heads were much like the Buick 215/Rover heads. The Buick 215 aluminum V8 was introduced in 1961 and the 198 cast iron V6 was introduced a year later. Smokey Yunick redesigned the Buick V6 heads for 1979 but was constrained by what could be produced using existing production tooling. Buick introduced a "Stage I" performance version of the redesigned Buick V6 heads and a higher performance "Stage II" race head.
The Stage 1 heads were produced on production tooling and shared the OEM style combustion chamber. The Stage II got the kidney bean shaped combustion chambers. Given the popularity of the turbocharged Buick Grand National, there were several aftermarket versions of the Buick V6 Stage I heads including those from Champion and TA Performance.
> Given Wildcat started producing these heads for the Rover V8 in 1995 and TA Performance versions came to market around 2009 /2010, it would appear Ian Richardson's brain child 'Wildcat heads' are the original game changer
I think you'll find the TA Performance Buick V6 heads pre-date the Wildcat heads and the Stage I Buick V6 heads pre-date both of those.
> I have also noticed that a certain tuner in Australia is no longer promoting Wildcat products, instead he is now selling TA Heads as his product.
If you are referring to Triumph Rover Spares, TRS was the launch customer for the TA Rover heads and got the first batch of cylinder heads made. My assembled TA Rover heads have the TRS logo on them while the unassembled set do not.
> Some photos showing the Wildcat cylinder head on the left, TA version on the right.
Given that both the Wildcat and TA Rover heads are based upon the Buick V6 Stage series of heads, it's not surprising they look quite similar. The intake ports of the Wildcat heads look to be raised higher than the TA heads so would require a wider intake manifold. Years ago I received a Wildcat single plane intake manifold in exchange for some consulting work on a Rover engine. I assumed it would be similar to the Willpower I currently have but, while it looked similar, it was wider than a Rover or a Buick 300 intake. At the time, we thought it might be for a P76 but it's clear now it was for the Wildcat heads.
> I know the Wildcats are much heavier but I did not weigh them.
I weighed an unassembled TA Rover head at 27 lbs and an assembled head (with Bob's port work but no rocker arms) at 31 lbs. I previously weighed a bare 1964 aluminum Buick 300 head at 13 lbs and a completely assembled Buick 300 head (shafts, stands, rockers, bolts, plugs) at 18 lbs.
Dan Jones
"My assembled TA Rover heads have the TRS logo on them while the unassembled set do not"
Is this the case?
As for Wildcat design influences,
"As I understand it, the Wildcat heads were based upon Buick Stage I and Stage II V6 aftermarket cylinder heads"
Did Ian Richardson tell you this or is this how you designed the TA heads for the Rover V8 engine?
Generally I would find it easier to follow your posting if you added some specific dates and focused on the aftermarket Rover V8 heads.
Thanks
> It seems to me you are Mr TA Heads?
That would be Mike Tomaszewski or TA Performance Products Inc. (www.taperformance.com).
> or is this how you designed the TA heads for the Rover V8 engine?
I did not design the TA Rover heads.
> "My assembled TA Rover heads have the TRS logo on them while the unassembled set do not"
>
> Is this the case?
I was mistaken. Both the unassembled and the assembled TA heads have the TRS logo. See:
The head in the foreground missing 2 springs and valves is the ported TA Rover. The one immediately behind is the unassembled head. On the LHS, is the TA Performance logo. On the RHS is the TRS logo (in the oval).
> "As I understand it, the Wildcat heads were based upon Buick Stage I and Stage II V6 aftermarket cylinder heads"
>
> Did Ian Richardson tell you this
According to this period article (Cars and Car Conversions Magazine, "Headline News - Flow Tests Blow by Blow" February 1996):
http://www.espritv8.net/espritv8_027.htm
Ian Richardson said so himself:
"Ian Richardson says that the inlet port design of the new casting is based upon the Buick Indy V6 engine with a Buick Grand National-style high inlet port. The spark plug position is based upon the Gurney-Weslake combustion chamber on which Ian had worked during its development."
For reference, here's a picture of the combustion chambers of Gurney-Weslake cylinder head that I flowed years ago:
The Buick Stage II V6 combustion chambers are also an evolution of the Weslake combustion chamber:
> Generally I would find it easier to follow your posting if you added some specific dates and focused on the aftermarket Rover V8 heads.
The Buick V6 Stage I and II heads followed shortly after Yunick's redesign. They are covered in my copy of the "Buick Free Sprit Power Manual" which is originally dated 1980 (my revised edition is dated 1985). A twin turbo Buick V6 with Stage II heads engine powered the pace car for the 1983 Indy 500. Your post made implied that the TA Rover heads were based upon the Wildcat Engineering heads. I simply attempted to point out that both heads are based upon the earlier Buick V6 Stage I and II designs.
Dan Jones
That would be Mike Tomaszewski or TA Performance Products Inc. (www.taperformance.com).
> or is this how you designed the TA heads for the Rover V8 engine?
I did not design the TA Rover heads.
> "My assembled TA Rover heads have the TRS logo on them while the unassembled set do not"
>
> Is this the case?
I was mistaken. Both the unassembled and the assembled TA heads have the TRS logo. See:
The head in the foreground missing 2 springs and valves is the ported TA Rover. The one immediately behind is the unassembled head. On the LHS, is the TA Performance logo. On the RHS is the TRS logo (in the oval).
> "As I understand it, the Wildcat heads were based upon Buick Stage I and Stage II V6 aftermarket cylinder heads"
>
> Did Ian Richardson tell you this
According to this period article (Cars and Car Conversions Magazine, "Headline News - Flow Tests Blow by Blow" February 1996):
http://www.espritv8.net/espritv8_027.htm
Ian Richardson said so himself:
"Ian Richardson says that the inlet port design of the new casting is based upon the Buick Indy V6 engine with a Buick Grand National-style high inlet port. The spark plug position is based upon the Gurney-Weslake combustion chamber on which Ian had worked during its development."
For reference, here's a picture of the combustion chambers of Gurney-Weslake cylinder head that I flowed years ago:
The Buick Stage II V6 combustion chambers are also an evolution of the Weslake combustion chamber:
> Generally I would find it easier to follow your posting if you added some specific dates and focused on the aftermarket Rover V8 heads.
The Buick V6 Stage I and II heads followed shortly after Yunick's redesign. They are covered in my copy of the "Buick Free Sprit Power Manual" which is originally dated 1980 (my revised edition is dated 1985). A twin turbo Buick V6 with Stage II heads engine powered the pace car for the 1983 Indy 500. Your post made implied that the TA Rover heads were based upon the Wildcat Engineering heads. I simply attempted to point out that both heads are based upon the earlier Buick V6 Stage I and II designs.
Dan Jones
Great discussion which I am following with interest.
Seeing as there you guys seem to know you stuff when it comes to heads may I ask a question.
I looked into the Wildcat heads a while back but decided that for a road car they where too much hassle and probably not really worth it running a street cam. The main issue I had was I was told the rover inlet manifold will not fit therefore you have to get something fabricated. Is this the same case with the TA heads?
Seeing as there you guys seem to know you stuff when it comes to heads may I ask a question.
I looked into the Wildcat heads a while back but decided that for a road car they where too much hassle and probably not really worth it running a street cam. The main issue I had was I was told the rover inlet manifold will not fit therefore you have to get something fabricated. Is this the same case with the TA heads?
> The main issue I had was I was told the rover inlet manifold will not fit therefore you have to get something fabricated. Is this the same case with the TA heads?
The intake ports are raised but TA made the head's intake port face protrude farther towards the engine centerline to compensate so Rover intakes fit. You will need to make a valley pan since the OEM Rover intake gasket will not work. The blue Fel Pro Buick 300 intake gaskets (p/n 9944) are a very close match, needing only minor clearancing for my port matched heads. When I get the chance, I'll take some pictures of the heads and intake mocked up on the block. According to TA, the exhaust ports are raised approximately 3/4". I measure a bit more than that:
Top of lower exhaust port flange bolt to cylinder head deck:
TA Performance Rover = 2.356"
Rover = 1.470"
Buick 300 = 1.470"
Depending upon the existing vertical clearance, your headers may need alteration. My TR8 tri-y headers have little vertical clearance so I will need to cut and lengthen the vertical portion of the primary tubes. Another odd issues is TA changed the angle of the valve cover rail. The TA heads have bolt bosses for both Rover/Buick 215 valve covers and for Buick 350 valve covers. I did a quick measurement and there's about a 10 degree difference (18 degrees versus 28 degrees) so if you are using the flat top Rover valve covers, the tops will no longer be level. I have a set of polished Rover valve covers so I'll need to make a wedge spacer to level the valve covers. Deeper reach spark plugs are required. The head bolt bosses are taller as well. The exhaust side are only a quarter inch taller so will likely still work but the others are 0.65" longer. I still need to check those.
Dan Jones
The intake ports are raised but TA made the head's intake port face protrude farther towards the engine centerline to compensate so Rover intakes fit. You will need to make a valley pan since the OEM Rover intake gasket will not work. The blue Fel Pro Buick 300 intake gaskets (p/n 9944) are a very close match, needing only minor clearancing for my port matched heads. When I get the chance, I'll take some pictures of the heads and intake mocked up on the block. According to TA, the exhaust ports are raised approximately 3/4". I measure a bit more than that:
Top of lower exhaust port flange bolt to cylinder head deck:
TA Performance Rover = 2.356"
Rover = 1.470"
Buick 300 = 1.470"
Depending upon the existing vertical clearance, your headers may need alteration. My TR8 tri-y headers have little vertical clearance so I will need to cut and lengthen the vertical portion of the primary tubes. Another odd issues is TA changed the angle of the valve cover rail. The TA heads have bolt bosses for both Rover/Buick 215 valve covers and for Buick 350 valve covers. I did a quick measurement and there's about a 10 degree difference (18 degrees versus 28 degrees) so if you are using the flat top Rover valve covers, the tops will no longer be level. I have a set of polished Rover valve covers so I'll need to make a wedge spacer to level the valve covers. Deeper reach spark plugs are required. The head bolt bosses are taller as well. The exhaust side are only a quarter inch taller so will likely still work but the others are 0.65" longer. I still need to check those.
Dan Jones
> So how much are a pair of TA heads along with roller rockers and new inlet manifold.
You can download TA's catalog from their website. It lists the bare castings at $1500 USD per pair and assembled at $2808.90 USD. The assembled come with stainless steel valves, chrome moly retainers, locks, valve job, valve stem seals (blue Viton metal clad ones) and choice of spring but no rockers or guide plates. TA lists several stages of porting (hand only as they don't currently have a CNC program for the heads) but last I heard the guy who does their hand porting is no longer available. Stud mount Chevy roller rockers are inexpensive (TA has them at $245 USD a set) and available in a variety of ratios from 1.5 to 1.7:1 but the TA crade mount shaft rocker set up is pricey at $1398 USD. For those outside the U.S., the strong dollar may make the exchange rate unfavorable. I know I recently imported an intake from Australia and the exchange rate made it much more favorable for importing into the United States than it was only a few years ago. Inlet manifold cost depends upon intake manifold chosen. TA only list the Edelbrock Performer Rover ($265) and Offenhauser Dual Port ($355) in their catalog. I'd suggest a Willpower, Harcourt or Huffaker might be better suited.
Dan Jones
You can download TA's catalog from their website. It lists the bare castings at $1500 USD per pair and assembled at $2808.90 USD. The assembled come with stainless steel valves, chrome moly retainers, locks, valve job, valve stem seals (blue Viton metal clad ones) and choice of spring but no rockers or guide plates. TA lists several stages of porting (hand only as they don't currently have a CNC program for the heads) but last I heard the guy who does their hand porting is no longer available. Stud mount Chevy roller rockers are inexpensive (TA has them at $245 USD a set) and available in a variety of ratios from 1.5 to 1.7:1 but the TA crade mount shaft rocker set up is pricey at $1398 USD. For those outside the U.S., the strong dollar may make the exchange rate unfavorable. I know I recently imported an intake from Australia and the exchange rate made it much more favorable for importing into the United States than it was only a few years ago. Inlet manifold cost depends upon intake manifold chosen. TA only list the Edelbrock Performer Rover ($265) and Offenhauser Dual Port ($355) in their catalog. I'd suggest a Willpower, Harcourt or Huffaker might be better suited.
Dan Jones
Dan Jones
That's an impressive display of cylinder heads. What are the other heads shown?
It's nice to see a Gurney Weslake head as developed in the sixties by Harry Weslake and his team in Rye, East Sussex, shown in your photo. Is it for a 302 or 351 Ford V8 engine?
"If you are referring to Triumph Rover Spares, TRS was the launch customer for the TA Rover heads and got the first batch of cylinder heads made. "
I have been wondering why a company in America would produce aftermarket cylinder heads for the Rover V8 and then ship the first batch to Australia to launch the product. Would it not make more business sense to launch the product in America or the UK?
Were they made to order? Is that why the first batch went to Australia?
"Bob was really jazzed about the TA heads and lightweight Rover V8. He noted there was room on the cylinder head to raise the roof a 1/2" and thought that raising the roof, filling the floor and use a larger intake valve, he could get well over 320 CFM out of the intake ports"
This is not a new idea, it is already part of the Wildcat heads design, as can be seen in the photo already posted.
"Your post made implied that the TA Rover heads were based upon the Wildcat Engineering heads. I simply attempted to point out that both heads are based upon the earlier Buick V6 Stage I and II designs."
I'm implying nothing. Based on the relevant application I'm sure they are both good products.
What I am saying is the Wildcat Rover V8 cylinder heads were produced in 1995 and I understand the TA version came out some 14 to 15 years later. This is not implied. This is a historic fact.
"I was asked to post some information on the (relatively) new TA Performance Rover heads"
To me they are not (relatively) new, (circa 2010) just a variation on a theme, similar to what had already been achieved by Ian Richardson who should be acknowledged. Prior to Ian's contribution we were stuck with the standard casting.
As we both know, engine development influences come from various engines regardless of number of cylinders and size.
The Oldsmobile's cylinder heads have the valves positioned on the cylinder centre line
I could go on and say the Buick V6 roots come from the Oldsmobile's F85 V8 engine, but that's another discussion. I'm simply referring to the cylinder heads for the Rover V8 engine.
wildcat600
That's an impressive display of cylinder heads. What are the other heads shown?
It's nice to see a Gurney Weslake head as developed in the sixties by Harry Weslake and his team in Rye, East Sussex, shown in your photo. Is it for a 302 or 351 Ford V8 engine?
"If you are referring to Triumph Rover Spares, TRS was the launch customer for the TA Rover heads and got the first batch of cylinder heads made. "
I have been wondering why a company in America would produce aftermarket cylinder heads for the Rover V8 and then ship the first batch to Australia to launch the product. Would it not make more business sense to launch the product in America or the UK?
Were they made to order? Is that why the first batch went to Australia?
"Bob was really jazzed about the TA heads and lightweight Rover V8. He noted there was room on the cylinder head to raise the roof a 1/2" and thought that raising the roof, filling the floor and use a larger intake valve, he could get well over 320 CFM out of the intake ports"
This is not a new idea, it is already part of the Wildcat heads design, as can be seen in the photo already posted.
"Your post made implied that the TA Rover heads were based upon the Wildcat Engineering heads. I simply attempted to point out that both heads are based upon the earlier Buick V6 Stage I and II designs."
I'm implying nothing. Based on the relevant application I'm sure they are both good products.
What I am saying is the Wildcat Rover V8 cylinder heads were produced in 1995 and I understand the TA version came out some 14 to 15 years later. This is not implied. This is a historic fact.
"I was asked to post some information on the (relatively) new TA Performance Rover heads"
To me they are not (relatively) new, (circa 2010) just a variation on a theme, similar to what had already been achieved by Ian Richardson who should be acknowledged. Prior to Ian's contribution we were stuck with the standard casting.
As we both know, engine development influences come from various engines regardless of number of cylinders and size.
The Oldsmobile's cylinder heads have the valves positioned on the cylinder centre line
I could go on and say the Buick V6 roots come from the Oldsmobile's F85 V8 engine, but that's another discussion. I'm simply referring to the cylinder heads for the Rover V8 engine.
wildcat600
Edited by wildcat600 on Wednesday 24th February 00:10
> That's an impressive display of cylinder heads. What are the other heads shown?
Rover 3.5L
Rover 4.6L
Buick 300
TA Rover bare
TA Rover ported
AFR 165 small block Ford
> It's nice to see a Gurney Westlake head as developed in the sixties by Harry Westlake and his team in Rye, East Sussex, shown in your photo. Is it for a 302 or 351 Ford V8 engine?
Yes, it's for the small block Windsor Ford. That particular head was run on a 302 with the Gurney-Weslake dual plane intake manifold, though the owner also has the adapters for independent runner induction.
> Were they made to order? Is that why the first batch went to Australia?
It's only a guess but given the fact the first batch went to Australia and they carry the TRS logo, my guess is TRS commissioned them or at least placed a large enough order to make the effort economically viable. If it was left to the North American market, I don't think the heads would have come to market.
> This is not a new idea, it is already part of the Wildcat heads design, as can be seen in the photo already posted.
Didn't mean to imply it was a new idea.
> I'm implying nothing.
Okay.
Here are what are probably the first race heads designed for the Buick 215:
They were developed by GM for Mickey Thompson's 1962 Indy racer and also for Lance Reventlow's Scarab. They are essentially the larger Buick 300 ports (pre-dating the Buick 300 by at least 2 years) with the smaller Buick 215 chambers. The exhaust port is actually a bit better than the ported Buick 300 heads I have but the intake ports are limited by smaller intake valves. I'm told the relatively large exhaust valve was common back then when running nitromethane in the fuel. It's interesting to note that the Huffaker intake manifold ports match the Buick 300 and Buick 215 race head ports perfectly.
GM also made a race intake for the Buick 215 heads:
I kind of wish I hadn't sold that. It won't fit under the TR8's sloping hood line but it would be interesting to see how it would work with a pair of Carter 400 CFM AFBs on the dyno.
Dan Jones
Rover 3.5L
Rover 4.6L
Buick 300
TA Rover bare
TA Rover ported
AFR 165 small block Ford
> It's nice to see a Gurney Westlake head as developed in the sixties by Harry Westlake and his team in Rye, East Sussex, shown in your photo. Is it for a 302 or 351 Ford V8 engine?
Yes, it's for the small block Windsor Ford. That particular head was run on a 302 with the Gurney-Weslake dual plane intake manifold, though the owner also has the adapters for independent runner induction.
> Were they made to order? Is that why the first batch went to Australia?
It's only a guess but given the fact the first batch went to Australia and they carry the TRS logo, my guess is TRS commissioned them or at least placed a large enough order to make the effort economically viable. If it was left to the North American market, I don't think the heads would have come to market.
> This is not a new idea, it is already part of the Wildcat heads design, as can be seen in the photo already posted.
Didn't mean to imply it was a new idea.
> I'm implying nothing.
Okay.
Here are what are probably the first race heads designed for the Buick 215:
They were developed by GM for Mickey Thompson's 1962 Indy racer and also for Lance Reventlow's Scarab. They are essentially the larger Buick 300 ports (pre-dating the Buick 300 by at least 2 years) with the smaller Buick 215 chambers. The exhaust port is actually a bit better than the ported Buick 300 heads I have but the intake ports are limited by smaller intake valves. I'm told the relatively large exhaust valve was common back then when running nitromethane in the fuel. It's interesting to note that the Huffaker intake manifold ports match the Buick 300 and Buick 215 race head ports perfectly.
GM also made a race intake for the Buick 215 heads:
I kind of wish I hadn't sold that. It won't fit under the TR8's sloping hood line but it would be interesting to see how it would work with a pair of Carter 400 CFM AFBs on the dyno.
Dan Jones
Bit more history for you that pre dates Wilcat..Repco Brabham version of these engines
https://primotipo.com/2014/08/07/rb620-v8-building...
Even mention of a flat plane crank..
https://primotipo.com/2014/08/07/rb620-v8-building...
Even mention of a flat plane crank..
Dan Jones
"Here are what are probably the first race heads designed for the Buick 215"
Very interesting. Never seen anything like those before. Do you still have them?
Have you run them on an engine?
Dual four barrel manifold looks fab too.
Do these relate to the Traco Oldsmobile race engines?
Wish I was local, would be great to see these in the flesh and talk Buick Rover Olds over a beer.
wildcat600
"Here are what are probably the first race heads designed for the Buick 215"
Very interesting. Never seen anything like those before. Do you still have them?
Have you run them on an engine?
Dual four barrel manifold looks fab too.
Do these relate to the Traco Oldsmobile race engines?
Wish I was local, would be great to see these in the flesh and talk Buick Rover Olds over a beer.
wildcat600
> Bit more history for you that pre dates Wilcat..Repco Brabham version of these engines
That was a fantastic link. Thanks! Looks like
> Even mention of a flat plane crank..
"It was supplied in 2.5 litre, 3 litre, 4.2 litre (for the Indy engines) and 4.4 litre (also used in the 5 litre version)."
I didn't know Mickey's Indy engine ran a flat plane crank.
> Very interesting. Never seen anything like those before. Do you still have them?
No, I sold them to pay for the bare pair of TA Rover heads and some other parts.
> Have you run them on an engine?
No but I did have the heads flowed:
GM 215 race heads
1.625" intake/1.500" exhaust
0.050 26.1 22.3
0.100 54.4 51.6
0.200 115.9 96.7
0.300 152.5 135.9
0.400 158.6 156.4
0.500 159.3 167.6
0.600 161.5 172.8
The guy flowing the heads suggested larger intake valves or at least a 30 degree backcut. My ported Buick 300 heads have 1.775" intake and 1.5" exhaust and went 200 CFM intake and 153 CFM exhaust. An unported Buick 300 head was 154 CFM intake and 116 CFM exhaust.
> Dual four barrel manifold looks fab too.
> Do these relate to the Traco Oldsmobile race engines?
I'm not sure. I know Traco built both Olds and Buick 215 based engines. The Olds heads used a different valve cover (and bolt pattern) from the Buick so you can sometimes tell what heads are on the engine from the vintage photos. I know the Old turbo 215 block was preferred as it had beefier main caps and six bolts per cylinder. My 215 race heads had 5 bolts per cylinder though they are cast with provisions for the sixth bolt hole.
> Wish I was local, would be great to see these in the flesh and talk Buick Rover Olds over a beer.
Would be fun. There's a local guy who may still have one of the dual quad intakes. I need to track him down and see if he'll let me borrow it for a dyno test.
Dan Jones
That was a fantastic link. Thanks! Looks like
> Even mention of a flat plane crank..
"It was supplied in 2.5 litre, 3 litre, 4.2 litre (for the Indy engines) and 4.4 litre (also used in the 5 litre version)."
I didn't know Mickey's Indy engine ran a flat plane crank.
> Very interesting. Never seen anything like those before. Do you still have them?
No, I sold them to pay for the bare pair of TA Rover heads and some other parts.
> Have you run them on an engine?
No but I did have the heads flowed:
GM 215 race heads
1.625" intake/1.500" exhaust
0.050 26.1 22.3
0.100 54.4 51.6
0.200 115.9 96.7
0.300 152.5 135.9
0.400 158.6 156.4
0.500 159.3 167.6
0.600 161.5 172.8
The guy flowing the heads suggested larger intake valves or at least a 30 degree backcut. My ported Buick 300 heads have 1.775" intake and 1.5" exhaust and went 200 CFM intake and 153 CFM exhaust. An unported Buick 300 head was 154 CFM intake and 116 CFM exhaust.
> Dual four barrel manifold looks fab too.
> Do these relate to the Traco Oldsmobile race engines?
I'm not sure. I know Traco built both Olds and Buick 215 based engines. The Olds heads used a different valve cover (and bolt pattern) from the Buick so you can sometimes tell what heads are on the engine from the vintage photos. I know the Old turbo 215 block was preferred as it had beefier main caps and six bolts per cylinder. My 215 race heads had 5 bolts per cylinder though they are cast with provisions for the sixth bolt hole.
> Wish I was local, would be great to see these in the flesh and talk Buick Rover Olds over a beer.
Would be fun. There's a local guy who may still have one of the dual quad intakes. I need to track him down and see if he'll let me borrow it for a dyno test.
Dan Jones
MPoxon
Using a standard injection rover manifold, Edelbrock Performer or the Offenhauser Dual Port, will reduce the flow potential of either cylinder head. This is due to the length of intake runners combined with the changes in direction and cross sectional restrictions the air has to travel through on its way from the inlet point to the inlet valves.
High rise type manifolds like the Willpower, Harcourt, Wildcat and Huffaker would be an improvement, but four twin choke down draught carbs or individual throttle bodies will allow you to take full advantage of either TA or Wildcat cylinder heads.
wildcat600
Using a standard injection rover manifold, Edelbrock Performer or the Offenhauser Dual Port, will reduce the flow potential of either cylinder head. This is due to the length of intake runners combined with the changes in direction and cross sectional restrictions the air has to travel through on its way from the inlet point to the inlet valves.
High rise type manifolds like the Willpower, Harcourt, Wildcat and Huffaker would be an improvement, but four twin choke down draught carbs or individual throttle bodies will allow you to take full advantage of either TA or Wildcat cylinder heads.
wildcat600
rev-erend said:
Bit more history for you that pre dates Wilcat..Repco Brabham version of these engines
https://primotipo.com/2014/08/07/rb620-v8-building...
Even mention of a flat plane crank..
Interesting Repco video on YouTube. It's around 30mins long. Within the last 5mins there is short clip of Olds 215 block being machined for the F1 engine.https://primotipo.com/2014/08/07/rb620-v8-building...
Even mention of a flat plane crank..
wildcat600
Dan Jones
Thanks for the info.
I normally get my flow figures based on 10 inch pressure. so it's going to take me a while to get my head around the flow figures you have kindly provided.
I have enjoyed our exchange and have been motivated to purchase the following.
1962 Sport Car Graphic magazine which has an article on the rear engine Scarab-Buick
The Buick Free Spirit Power Manual
I don't know if you have a copy of HP BOOKS "How to Hotrod your Buick V6", if you haven't you might find it an interesting read.
All the best with your projects. wildcat600
Thanks for the info.
I normally get my flow figures based on 10 inch pressure. so it's going to take me a while to get my head around the flow figures you have kindly provided.
I have enjoyed our exchange and have been motivated to purchase the following.
1962 Sport Car Graphic magazine which has an article on the rear engine Scarab-Buick
The Buick Free Spirit Power Manual
I don't know if you have a copy of HP BOOKS "How to Hotrod your Buick V6", if you haven't you might find it an interesting read.
All the best with your projects. wildcat600
All, the main builders/experts have read that book but it's an industry secret, lol. TVR people are like monaro people, 10 years behind the times and just discovering new things like the turbocharger and other mysterious witchcraft :-)
Edited by Boosted LS1 on Wednesday 24th February 08:11
Boosted LS1 said:
All, the main builders/experts have read that book but it's an industry secret, lol. TVR people are like monaro people, 10 years behind the times and just discovering new things like the turbocharger and other mysterious witchcraft :-)
Another classic book some experts might want to consider reading, Edited by Boosted LS1 on Wednesday 24th February 08:11
"How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie
wildcat600
He he, I think you took my post the wrong way.
The buick book's a really good read. I remember certain builders carrying out the 'latest' tuning mods, claiming them to be their own. In fact they were only copying information from buick as it had all been done years before in the US or NZ, OZ.
The buick book's a really good read. I remember certain builders carrying out the 'latest' tuning mods, claiming them to be their own. In fact they were only copying information from buick as it had all been done years before in the US or NZ, OZ.
Boosted LS1 said:
All, the main builders/experts have read that book but it's an industry secret, lol. TVR people are like monaro people, 10 years behind the times and just discovering new things like the turbocharger and other mysterious witchcraft :-)
Or they are wise to the fact that they are not racing, that they don't have 2 tons of metal to haul about, that 350/350 is plenty to ask stern questions from TVRs' tiny footprints and relatively floppy chassis, that while you can approach naturally aspirated resonse with turbocharging nowadays, you'll never quite get it and as turbo'd cars are quickly becoming the default anyway - why bother? wildcat600 said:
MPoxon
Using a standard injection rover manifold, Edelbrock Performer or the Offenhauser Dual Port, will reduce the flow potential of either cylinder head. This is due to the length of intake runners combined with the changes in direction and cross sectional restrictions the air has to travel through on its way from the inlet point to the inlet valves.
High rise type manifolds like the Willpower, Harcourt, Wildcat and Huffaker would be an improvement, but four twin choke down draught carbs or individual throttle bodies will allow you to take full advantage of either TA or Wildcat cylinder heads.
wildcat600
Wildcat 600Using a standard injection rover manifold, Edelbrock Performer or the Offenhauser Dual Port, will reduce the flow potential of either cylinder head. This is due to the length of intake runners combined with the changes in direction and cross sectional restrictions the air has to travel through on its way from the inlet point to the inlet valves.
High rise type manifolds like the Willpower, Harcourt, Wildcat and Huffaker would be an improvement, but four twin choke down draught carbs or individual throttle bodies will allow you to take full advantage of either TA or Wildcat cylinder heads.
wildcat600
What I would really like is a 380 - 400BHP Rover V8 for street / occasional track use, naturally aspirated so I was thinking of a 5.2 forged cross bolted bottom end with TA heads and the JE cross over manifold. I did look into Wildcat heads before but they would not fit the JE throttle bodies. Looks like the TA heads could be the answer to unlocking a bit more power.
Not interested in SC or Turbo although I agree it would be much easier.
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