Braided Clutch Hose - Anyone Using One?
Discussion
Hi guys,
With my clutch replacement and S-10 tail housing job fast approaching I'm now exploring every last little way to ensure the project is the very best success it can be.
So as per the title......
"Has anyone switched from the solid copper/cunifer clutch pipe to a braided flxi clutch hose?"
I'm very aware (in terms of compressibility) there is nothing better than a solid pipe, but there are also a number of potential benefits in switching to a braided hose.
Namely:
1. A braided rubber flexi will be way less thermally conductive than the standard copper/cunifer pipe
2. A braided rubber flexi allows for a shorter straighter run as there is no requirement for the anti vibration loops essential to stop stress fractures in a solid copper/cunifer pipe
3. A braided rubber flexi may also slightly increase the fluid capacity of the system which currently suffers from the very small old school Girling type integrated egg cup capacity reservoir
The biggest potential benefit to me in switching from a solid clutch pipe to braided flexi is the thermal conductive improvements it offers and it's possible this advantage alone could out way the zero compressability benefit of a solid pipe.
There is very little to beat copper as a conductor of heat, the thin wall copper clutch pipe in the high temperature TVR engine bay environment is definitely transferring a significant amount of that heat to the fluid because I've removed the master cylinder lid & felt it.
Indeed if you get under the car and feel the clutch pipe itself after an hour or so of driving the pipe gets very hot to the touch indeed, the subsequent transfer of heat to the clutch fluid being very undesirable.
I appreciate it's a little detail but in my experience lots of little well chosen details can all add up to a big improvement, I'm thinking if I'm going to move to a braided hose I may as well do it now as part of my comprehensive package of upcoming clutch and gear shift mods.
"So has anyone switched from the solid copper/cunifer clutch pipe to a braided flxi clutch hose, and if so what were your findings (if any) from the switch?"
With my clutch replacement and S-10 tail housing job fast approaching I'm now exploring every last little way to ensure the project is the very best success it can be.
So as per the title......
"Has anyone switched from the solid copper/cunifer clutch pipe to a braided flxi clutch hose?"
I'm very aware (in terms of compressibility) there is nothing better than a solid pipe, but there are also a number of potential benefits in switching to a braided hose.
Namely:
1. A braided rubber flexi will be way less thermally conductive than the standard copper/cunifer pipe
2. A braided rubber flexi allows for a shorter straighter run as there is no requirement for the anti vibration loops essential to stop stress fractures in a solid copper/cunifer pipe
3. A braided rubber flexi may also slightly increase the fluid capacity of the system which currently suffers from the very small old school Girling type integrated egg cup capacity reservoir
The biggest potential benefit to me in switching from a solid clutch pipe to braided flexi is the thermal conductive improvements it offers and it's possible this advantage alone could out way the zero compressability benefit of a solid pipe.
There is very little to beat copper as a conductor of heat, the thin wall copper clutch pipe in the high temperature TVR engine bay environment is definitely transferring a significant amount of that heat to the fluid because I've removed the master cylinder lid & felt it.
Indeed if you get under the car and feel the clutch pipe itself after an hour or so of driving the pipe gets very hot to the touch indeed, the subsequent transfer of heat to the clutch fluid being very undesirable.
I appreciate it's a little detail but in my experience lots of little well chosen details can all add up to a big improvement, I'm thinking if I'm going to move to a braided hose I may as well do it now as part of my comprehensive package of upcoming clutch and gear shift mods.
"So has anyone switched from the solid copper/cunifer clutch pipe to a braided flxi clutch hose, and if so what were your findings (if any) from the switch?"
Hi Dave, yes i`ve fitted a braided flexi hose. I just wasnt too keen on the rigid original, plus mine had seen better days.
Have i seen an improvement in clutch performance ! If i`m honest i wouldnt really know as i replaced mine when i did my body off restoration and i hadnt really used the car much before that so havent really anything to compare it to. One thing it used to do on the old pipe was after a long journey, it didnt want to come out of gear when changing gear. Shortly after this tho my master cylinder gave up. So possibly this was the culprit for that, who knows.
It does look nice though.
One thing it has helped with is bleeding the clutch. When i first got the car i had terrible problems getting all the air out of the slave. Tried everything nose of the car high up etc. still struggled to get a decent pedal. Now i just take the slave off and with the flexi pipe i can have the bleed nipple and flexi pipe facing directly upwards and just manually push the cylinder in a few times and the bubbles escape through the master cylinder. Piece of cake and each time i`ve done it a perfect pedal.
For the sake of £15 which was what mine was i`d say do it.
Have i seen an improvement in clutch performance ! If i`m honest i wouldnt really know as i replaced mine when i did my body off restoration and i hadnt really used the car much before that so havent really anything to compare it to. One thing it used to do on the old pipe was after a long journey, it didnt want to come out of gear when changing gear. Shortly after this tho my master cylinder gave up. So possibly this was the culprit for that, who knows.
It does look nice though.
One thing it has helped with is bleeding the clutch. When i first got the car i had terrible problems getting all the air out of the slave. Tried everything nose of the car high up etc. still struggled to get a decent pedal. Now i just take the slave off and with the flexi pipe i can have the bleed nipple and flexi pipe facing directly upwards and just manually push the cylinder in a few times and the bubbles escape through the master cylinder. Piece of cake and each time i`ve done it a perfect pedal.
For the sake of £15 which was what mine was i`d say do it.
carsy said:
Hi Dave, yes i`ve fitted a braided flexi hose. I just wasnt too keen on the rigid original, plus mine had seen better days.
Have i seen an improvement in clutch performance ! If i`m honest i wouldnt really know as i replaced mine when i did my body off restoration and i hadnt really used the car much before that so havent really anything to compare it to. One thing it used to do on the old pipe was after a long journey, it didnt want to come out of gear when changing gear. Shortly after this tho my master cylinder gave up. So possibly this was the culprit for that, who knows.
It does look nice though.
One thing it has helped with is bleeding the clutch. When i first got the car i had terrible problems getting all the air out of the slave. Tried everything nose of the car high up etc. still struggled to get a decent pedal. Now i just take the slave off and with the flexi pipe i can have the bleed nipple and flexi pipe facing directly upwards and just manually push the cylinder in a few times and the bubbles escape through the master cylinder. Piece of cake and each time i`ve done it a perfect pedal.
For the sake of £15 which was what mine was i`d say do it.
An excellent and very honest answer there Ian, even if there are no other benefits the bleeding advantage alone seems well worth the switch especially as you're saying its only £15.Have i seen an improvement in clutch performance ! If i`m honest i wouldnt really know as i replaced mine when i did my body off restoration and i hadnt really used the car much before that so havent really anything to compare it to. One thing it used to do on the old pipe was after a long journey, it didnt want to come out of gear when changing gear. Shortly after this tho my master cylinder gave up. So possibly this was the culprit for that, who knows.
It does look nice though.
One thing it has helped with is bleeding the clutch. When i first got the car i had terrible problems getting all the air out of the slave. Tried everything nose of the car high up etc. still struggled to get a decent pedal. Now i just take the slave off and with the flexi pipe i can have the bleed nipple and flexi pipe facing directly upwards and just manually push the cylinder in a few times and the bubbles escape through the master cylinder. Piece of cake and each time i`ve done it a perfect pedal.
For the sake of £15 which was what mine was i`d say do it.
Can you link me to the £15 braided clutch hose with the correct ends please, is it being sold by a TVR parts specialist?
It definitely makes sense to change by clutch fluid when my new clutch goes in, so assuming there are no downsides it also makes sense to move to the braided clutch hose at the same time.
Further to my S-10 tail housing post I am totally committed to doing absolutely everything I can to ensure my clutch is super light and progressive, and that my T5 gear shift is as slick, direct and precise as it can be.
To this end I know Lloyd Specialist Developments will be checking, lubricating and adjusting everything to make 100% sure we are getting the very best result from the modifications we're making. I firmly believe I either have clutch drag or a fractionally warped driven plate which is causing the sticky gear engagement issues when hot.
But perhaps my lightened standard cast flywheel is at fault too? Perhaps the TVR gear shift linkage that I know got slightly bent (then supposedly corrected) when the Helix clutch went in is adding to the problem? Perhaps it's just an adjustment thing or consequence of the clutch fluid getting too hot combined with the overly heavy Helix clutch that makes first & second gears sticky when the car gets heat soaked?
Perhaps it's a little bit of all the above
What ever the reason I'm now totally determined (with the help of my friends at Lloyds) to completely resolving this annoying trait and making the gear shift and clutch operation what I know it should be, and maybe amongst it all we might even achieve something better than when the car left Bristol Avenue way back in 1996?
I'm making a whole host of changes to try and achieve my goal, some small and in the case of the S-10 tail housing some not so small. I expect some of what I've got planned will make a good improvement and some will prove completely unnecessary, but I'm not taking any chances this time so it's getting the lot!
The braided clutch flexi may not make a massive improvement to clutch feel and the dragging issue (if any), but like you say Ian for £15 it's a no-brainer.
Please let me know where I can buy one
Many thanks for your feedback, Dave
carsy said:
Sorry Dave, i cant link you to anything, i just got it made up at my local hydraulics place.
No problem mate.Can you remind me of the fittings at the master and slave cylinder ends please, perhaps you can also give me an indication of the length of hose you had made up?
I know I have the original pipe so it should be all standard fitting wise, once I have all of the above info I'll nip down to Pirtek and have one made up.
Thanks in advance, Dave.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Beware the potential consequence of fitting a flexi hose without adequate heat shielding (as is standard on the Cerb).
Beware the potential consequence of fitting a flexi hose without adequate heat shielding (as is standard on the Cerb).
ukkid35 said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Beware the potential consequence of fitting a flexi hose without adequate heat shielding (as is standard on the Cerb).
This. Beware the potential consequence of fitting a flexi hose without adequate heat shielding (as is standard on the Cerb).
There is a lot of heat travelling past this pipe and in standing traffic made much worse. The standard pipe will cool quicker when air flow does increase,still the best long term solution I believe.
Since a new clutch was fitted including new fork arm I have a very light clutch, the only time I notice it marginally firmer is after prolonged periods in heavy slow moving traffic so there’s deffo something in the heat that effects the hydraulic efficiency.
Would a braided pipe not be a heat sink area and harder to cool than a bare pipe?
It’s going to get hot in that area that’s for sure.
I like the old school winding of the brass pipe that adds area and cooling efficiency.
What you're trying to do here is stop the heat being transferred to the fluid in the first place, so what you need is good insulation!The bare pipe is just that, bare, so has zero insulation against heat, it's also made from Kunifer which is a nickel/copper alloy so will conduct heat from adjacent hot components (exhaust manifold) absolutely brilliantly, being a copper alloy it will then transfer that heat to the fluid extremely effectively.
A braided hose on the other hand is really a rubber hose with steel braiding over it, rubber is of course a brilliant insulator and the stainless braiding over it will help reflect some of the heat in the first place.
Seriously, a braided rubber hose will offer far superior heat insulation than a bare Kunifer pipe and your flud will stay cooler
If it didn't work like that they wouldn't sell many oven gloves would they, and copper bottomed saucepans wouldn't be very popular either 
Sardonicus said:
A braided hose is PTFE pipe (same as oil capillary pipe on old school Fords etc) wrapped in a stainless steel braid
Fair correction Simon, but PTFE is still a good insulator isn't it.You don't get many copper over gloves, and PTFE saucepan bottoms never really caught on
Glad I read this as I'm thinking of going flexy because I've yet to sort out the refitting of all my hydraulics at the alloy tunnel union or to wherever the PO was going to connect them.
With regards the clutch the PO has replaced the metal pipe including a nice curly section but the pipe just ends up by the rocker cover without a fitting or flared end. So as I don't have a flaring tool going flexy would be an easy option.
I can however borrow a tool if I need one as the PO has modified the brake lines as well.
Any idea of the end fittings, length of pipe and where to get one made or bought.
With regards the clutch the PO has replaced the metal pipe including a nice curly section but the pipe just ends up by the rocker cover without a fitting or flared end. So as I don't have a flaring tool going flexy would be an easy option.
I can however borrow a tool if I need one as the PO has modified the brake lines as well.
Any idea of the end fittings, length of pipe and where to get one made or bought.
Classic Chim said:
I like the old school winding of the brass pipe that adds area and cooling efficiency.
That may be a token side effect but surely the main purpose of the coil is to reduce the possibility of a fracture from movement or vibration.The fluid near the manifold only "pops" down there for seconds when the clutch is operated!
ChimpOnGas said:
What you're trying to do here is stop the heat being transferred to the fluid in the first place, so what you need is good insulation!The bare pipe is just that, bare, so has zero insulation against heat, it's also made from Kunifer which is a nickel/copper alloy so will conduct heat from adjacent hot components (exhaust manifold) absolutely brilliantly, being a copper alloy it will then transfer that heat to the fluid extremely effectively.
A braided hose on the other hand is really a rubber hose with steel braiding over it, rubber is of course a brilliant insulator and the stainless braiding over it will help reflect some of the heat in the first place.
Seriously, a braided rubber hose will offer far superior heat insulation than a bare Kunifer pipe and your flud will stay cooler
If it didn't work like that they wouldn't sell many oven gloves would they, and copper bottomed saucepans wouldn't be very popular either Gassing Station | Chimaera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff