What on earth is happening to Griffith prices?
Discussion
When I was deciding between pre-cat and 500....back in the day - I was offered examples of both slightly used at the same price...
Now, naturally I was clearly tempted to go for the younger higher power car....until I drove them, back to back.....to me, chalk and cheese - I was besotted by the 4.3 even though the throttle broke and we were trailered back! - I then took the 500 out...lets just say, very very quickly indeed I knew it wasnt for me
The sound was not even in the same ball park, the eagerness to scream around the rev band was not there - replaced with clumsy amounts of torque, waiting to throw you through the nearest roundabout exit hedge / armco..
The ride felt fidgety, with what appeared to be over damping..the windscreen view to road endlessly chopping up and down a small amount nervously - the 4.3 is more laid back and comfortable (but prone to being a bit oversprung and underdamped giving occasional larger bounce over poor road surfaces)
Power steering - Really?, why wood you dilute that '911' writhing of correctly tyred pre-cat (ok parking is near Herculean task..)
Ask John Eales, the original Griffith engine builder which is the better engine - He is quite adamant that the best of the bunch is the 4.3, the others being varyingly compromised - He didnt even rate the BV as any better so wouldnt agree to mod an existing 4.3 - 'Horses mouth'
- Good enough for me and exactly what my ear & rear tell me
Also always liked the sound of the S V8, SEAC + 430 Wedges
Now, naturally I was clearly tempted to go for the younger higher power car....until I drove them, back to back.....to me, chalk and cheese - I was besotted by the 4.3 even though the throttle broke and we were trailered back! - I then took the 500 out...lets just say, very very quickly indeed I knew it wasnt for me
The sound was not even in the same ball park, the eagerness to scream around the rev band was not there - replaced with clumsy amounts of torque, waiting to throw you through the nearest roundabout exit hedge / armco..
The ride felt fidgety, with what appeared to be over damping..the windscreen view to road endlessly chopping up and down a small amount nervously - the 4.3 is more laid back and comfortable (but prone to being a bit oversprung and underdamped giving occasional larger bounce over poor road surfaces)
Power steering - Really?, why wood you dilute that '911' writhing of correctly tyred pre-cat (ok parking is near Herculean task..)
Ask John Eales, the original Griffith engine builder which is the better engine - He is quite adamant that the best of the bunch is the 4.3, the others being varyingly compromised - He didnt even rate the BV as any better so wouldnt agree to mod an existing 4.3 - 'Horses mouth'
- Good enough for me and exactly what my ear & rear tell me Also always liked the sound of the S V8, SEAC + 430 Wedges
griffster said:
When I was deciding between pre-cat and 500....back in the day - I was offered examples of both slightly used at the same price...
Now, naturally I was clearly tempted to go for the younger higher power car....until I drove them, back to back.....to me, chalk and cheese - I was besotted by the 4.3 even though the throttle broke and we were trailered back! - I then took the 500 out...lets just say, very very quickly indeed I knew it wasnt for me
The sound was not even in the same ball park, the eagerness to scream around the rev band was not there - replaced with clumsy amounts of torque, waiting to throw you through the nearest roundabout exit hedge / armco..
The ride felt fidgety, with what appeared to be over damping..the windscreen view to road endlessly chopping up and down a small amount nervously - the 4.3 is more laid back and comfortable (but prone to being a bit oversprung and underdamped giving occasional larger bounce over poor road surfaces)
Power steering - Really?, why wood you dilute that '911' writhing of correctly tyred pre-cat (ok parking is near Herculean task..)
Ask John Eales, the original Griffith engine builder which is the better engine - He is quite adamant that the best of the bunch is the 4.3, the others being varyingly compromised - He didnt even rate the BV as any better so wouldnt agree to mod an existing 4.3 - 'Horses mouth' - Good enough for me and exactly what my ear & rear tell me
Also always liked the sound of the S V8, SEAC + 430 Wedges
I have to agree about the aural soundtrack of the 4.3, but get a good 500 and the sheer grunt wins. Having owned both types, I would say that the 500 felt more mature to drive. Some could say tamer, not raw enough but I am an old bloke - just a cruiser not a racer.Now, naturally I was clearly tempted to go for the younger higher power car....until I drove them, back to back.....to me, chalk and cheese - I was besotted by the 4.3 even though the throttle broke and we were trailered back! - I then took the 500 out...lets just say, very very quickly indeed I knew it wasnt for me
The sound was not even in the same ball park, the eagerness to scream around the rev band was not there - replaced with clumsy amounts of torque, waiting to throw you through the nearest roundabout exit hedge / armco..
The ride felt fidgety, with what appeared to be over damping..the windscreen view to road endlessly chopping up and down a small amount nervously - the 4.3 is more laid back and comfortable (but prone to being a bit oversprung and underdamped giving occasional larger bounce over poor road surfaces)
Power steering - Really?, why wood you dilute that '911' writhing of correctly tyred pre-cat (ok parking is near Herculean task..)
Ask John Eales, the original Griffith engine builder which is the better engine - He is quite adamant that the best of the bunch is the 4.3, the others being varyingly compromised - He didnt even rate the BV as any better so wouldnt agree to mod an existing 4.3 - 'Horses mouth'
- Good enough for me and exactly what my ear & rear tell me Also always liked the sound of the S V8, SEAC + 430 Wedges
Perhaps the 500 that you drove had a few issues with the engine/suspension. It's hard to find good examples of these cars, but when you do find a good one all the effort is worth it.
Given the fact all Griffs are so tweakable suspension wise it seems barely relevant? Unless you drove a knackered 500 and ‘good’ pre-cat? Same chassis and geometry aren’t they, with fresh shocks they should be capable of broadly the same feel?
As for John Eales, I’d say his 5.2 is the way to go. But, I’m biased
As for John Eales, I’d say his 5.2 is the way to go. But, I’m biased
Exactly. It doesn’t matter what model you have. It is highly unlikely that it’s underpinnings are all original. If they are, they are in no doubt in need of replacement/refurbishment/upgrading.
Given the above , The only difference an individual will notice from going from one car to another is whether one has power steering or not.
Having done many, many track days, a very basic observation of all types of similar car that have been set up correctly is that they all go round bends at a very similar speed.
Obviously effort has been made to make these as good as they can be and unless you are in something like a lightweight Caterham with sticky tyres, you reach a limit of any cars capabilities and any upgrade is only absolutely minor in handling performance.
Given the above , The only difference an individual will notice from going from one car to another is whether one has power steering or not.
Having done many, many track days, a very basic observation of all types of similar car that have been set up correctly is that they all go round bends at a very similar speed.
Obviously effort has been made to make these as good as they can be and unless you are in something like a lightweight Caterham with sticky tyres, you reach a limit of any cars capabilities and any upgrade is only absolutely minor in handling performance.
The biggest difference I have noticed in handling is when you put the right driver behind the wheel.
I was hitting around 125mph at the end of the Bentley Straight on Thursday's Snetterton trackday, running 320 bhp in my 4.6 turbo Chimaera.
Mat Smith, who races a Chimaera, took out Trev4's standardish 4 litre (therefore 240 bhp), which is on similar dampers and similar tyres to my car, and came back in announcing (much to Trev's dismay/amusement) that he had topped 130mph in the same place. I imagine Trev wasn't breaking 120mph, though he might like to embarrass me further.
Which means that Mat must have got the car out of the previous corner at least 10 mph faster than me, despite me trying my best.
I was hitting around 125mph at the end of the Bentley Straight on Thursday's Snetterton trackday, running 320 bhp in my 4.6 turbo Chimaera.
Mat Smith, who races a Chimaera, took out Trev4's standardish 4 litre (therefore 240 bhp), which is on similar dampers and similar tyres to my car, and came back in announcing (much to Trev's dismay/amusement) that he had topped 130mph in the same place. I imagine Trev wasn't breaking 120mph, though he might like to embarrass me further.
Which means that Mat must have got the car out of the previous corner at least 10 mph faster than me, despite me trying my best.
just as a point of reference, both examples were low mileage and i think the 500 was 2 yrs old and the 4.3 3yrs - both offered by TVR's main dealer down N London way and in excellent order.
As you say the suspension is customisable for a thousand or two and would be the way to go - I just found the 500 lacking in sparkle engine wise where as the 4.3 (and similar) is at the other end of the aural spectrum - It wakes the soul as soon as it starts and idles (I was hooked from that moment on..)
As you say the suspension is customisable for a thousand or two and would be the way to go - I just found the 500 lacking in sparkle engine wise where as the 4.3 (and similar) is at the other end of the aural spectrum
- It wakes the soul as soon as it starts and idles (I was hooked from that moment on..)As I said in another thread I started, I have owned 2x 4.3 & 1x 500 and for me the 4.3 wins. I love the rawness of it and especially the engine....pre-cat sounds sensational. Suspension I think very similar and as many say, adjustable anyway. I prefer the dash of the 4.3 with original style clocks, the Wheels....either the 5 spoke or OZ, no power steering. Both my 4.3’s felt far more planted at the front than the 500, albeit, I know early 500’s had a front end issue with lifting at speed and that was very disconcerting ! I personally disliked a lot of the interior changes on later 500’s and equally the change of rear lights to pepper pot styles, but that’s just personal taste. The engine is just so good in the 4.3 and that is a huge part for me.
very hard to compare like for like,especially after all this time..
I had a totally standard 4.3 for 6 years from new, and directly replaced it with a totally standard 500..
Noise wise sounded very similar (tiny bit less volume in 500 (a good thing - on long drives)
and I specced my new 500 with PAS, and it is much better for it.. imho
If you eve lose the back end in a griff. it is MUCH easier to catch it with the PAS rack....
power wise
a good 4.3 265-275 bp ish?
a good 500, 270-280 bhp ish?
(again, everything totally original) and a bit more torque
Mine is a late 500,(Oct 98) and I always felt it handled much better than my 4.3.. Early 500s very similar to 4.3s
Again that is just my opinion/experience on two cars that I know for certain were totally standard/OEM.
(wrt PAS, you eed to try one, they ddo not feel super light like modern cars, you might not even feel like it has PAS, until you drive one without and try to park it at low speeds)
I had a totally standard 4.3 for 6 years from new, and directly replaced it with a totally standard 500..
Noise wise sounded very similar (tiny bit less volume in 500 (a good thing - on long drives)
and I specced my new 500 with PAS, and it is much better for it.. imho
If you eve lose the back end in a griff. it is MUCH easier to catch it with the PAS rack....
power wise
a good 4.3 265-275 bp ish?
a good 500, 270-280 bhp ish?
(again, everything totally original) and a bit more torque
Mine is a late 500,(Oct 98) and I always felt it handled much better than my 4.3.. Early 500s very similar to 4.3s
Again that is just my opinion/experience on two cars that I know for certain were totally standard/OEM.
(wrt PAS, you eed to try one, they ddo not feel super light like modern cars, you might not even feel like it has PAS, until you drive one without and try to park it at low speeds)
) for £75K a couple of years back, what do we think the top price for a pre-cat could be?BJWoods said:
If you eve lose the back end in a griff. it is MUCH easier to catch it with the PAS rack....
But also much easier to lose the back end with PAS in the first place by over-driving it. The liberating thing about not having it is not having to think about moderating your steering inputs (and also the unassisted steering being consistent with all the other control weights, so everything takes a similar effort). That, and despite that the Chim/Griff PAS is a successful installation on this count, it's still easier to feel into the amount of front end grip you have, without it.All in all, it's completely dependant on the driver
900T-R said:
BJWoods said:
If you eve lose the back end in a griff. it is MUCH easier to catch it with the PAS rack....
But also much easier to lose the back end with PAS in the first place by over-driving it. The liberating thing about not having it is not having to think about moderating your steering inputs (and also the unassisted steering being consistent with all the other control weights, so everything takes a similar effort). That, and despite that the Chim/Griff PAS is a successful installation on this count, it's still easier to feel into the amount of front end grip you have, without it.All in all, it's completely dependant on the driver
With a manual rack you are literally hanging onto the wheel and giving yourself a great workout which is made evident by being bathed in sweat after 20 minutes on track!
I understand the theory of what you are saying but in my world the manual rack is appallingly heavy and makes quick corrections impossible. Not just my opinion but the opinion of a race driver who used my old non PS chim on track.
Obviously, each to one's own and we have read on here the input of many people who prefer a manual rack, (obviously they are all wrong
).All in my opinion...........
magpies said:
QBee said:
Griff and Chim are by a fair way the best bang for the buck going - supercar performance for 3series money.
Therefore it's quite logical that they are the best bang for 1.25 bucks as well.
TBH I think the S Series gives the best performance per $ or £Therefore it's quite logical that they are the best bang for 1.25 bucks as well.
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