Serp intermediate OEM oil cooler take off
Discussion
Evening Gents,
I need to look into an oil cooler for my Griff. The oil got very hot on the Rockingham trackday and I ended up with a lot of blue smoke coming out the back of the car on downshifts.
I did fit an oil temperature gauge to keep an eye on the temperatures but for some reason the reading is completely out. On a motorway cruise this sits at 140 degrees. On the trackday it was maxed out at 150 degrees so I think there is something wrong there! I need to look into that.
I am aware the standard way to fit an oil cooler is to fit a sandwich plate take off on the oil filter and fit a shorter oil filter. I know the serpentine intermediate front cover on the TVR 500 engines have OEM take offs for an oil cooler, one of which I understand TVR used for the oil pressure sender. Does anyone know of anyone who has successfully used the OEM take offs for an aftermarket oil cooler?
Matthew
I need to look into an oil cooler for my Griff. The oil got very hot on the Rockingham trackday and I ended up with a lot of blue smoke coming out the back of the car on downshifts.
I did fit an oil temperature gauge to keep an eye on the temperatures but for some reason the reading is completely out. On a motorway cruise this sits at 140 degrees. On the trackday it was maxed out at 150 degrees so I think there is something wrong there! I need to look into that.
I am aware the standard way to fit an oil cooler is to fit a sandwich plate take off on the oil filter and fit a shorter oil filter. I know the serpentine intermediate front cover on the TVR 500 engines have OEM take offs for an oil cooler, one of which I understand TVR used for the oil pressure sender. Does anyone know of anyone who has successfully used the OEM take offs for an aftermarket oil cooler?
Matthew
Hi Howard, hope you are well sir. I am surprised to hear you are not racing anyomore. I loved the videos of you doing the hillcimbs, lovely sound and you were proper quick.
Would you mind sharing with me how you managed to utilise the OEM take offs? Did you get custom hoses made or modify OEM versions. I assume you had to relocate the TVR pressure sensor? Is there anything else I need to consider?
All the best
Matthew
Would you mind sharing with me how you managed to utilise the OEM take offs? Did you get custom hoses made or modify OEM versions. I assume you had to relocate the TVR pressure sensor? Is there anything else I need to consider?
All the best
Matthew
Hello Matthew, still doing the hills & sprints but now in a SC MX5 which is proving very nearly as quick (slower on the straights but quicker through the twisties as I’m a bit braver/stupid now).
Sorry, I made a mistake, I used a sandwich plate but still managed to use the oil filter but it was very very tight. I ended up using a remote oil filter which is welded to the front chassis crossmember which was much easier.
Sorry, I made a mistake, I used a sandwich plate but still managed to use the oil filter but it was very very tight. I ended up using a remote oil filter which is welded to the front chassis crossmember which was much easier.
hi matthew, good to meet you albeit very briefly at rockingham. my new AFM arrived last night so going to shove it on tonight - fingers crossed.
I have an oil cooler using the sandwich plate. as howard says getting the filter on is very tight but just about doable. the biggest problem is keeping the new filter full of oil while you manoeuvre it through the chassis rails to screw it on.
I have an oil cooler using the sandwich plate. as howard says getting the filter on is very tight but just about doable. the biggest problem is keeping the new filter full of oil while you manoeuvre it through the chassis rails to screw it on.
Matt
As its you, would you like to borrow these pipes.
Not all the oil flows though these pipes to the cooler but if good enough for a 2 tone Rangie with a trailer then maybe good enough for a TVR but I'm not so sure about your driving, especially at Rockingham. For road use you may still require an oil thermostat by-pass plus you'll also need a T connector to connect the 1/8 x NPT oil pressure sender to the oil pressure switch that has a different thread.
Rover V8 oil filters have a pressure by-pass valve and normally the smaller the filter the lower the pressure by-pass which means even less oil is filtered above idle. However Peter (Phazed) uses WIX WL7168 filters (recommended Sardonicus) are much better than normal and worth using with a sandwich block.
Steve
RV8 - I'm doing my bit for Global warming
As its you, would you like to borrow these pipes.
Not all the oil flows though these pipes to the cooler but if good enough for a 2 tone Rangie with a trailer then maybe good enough for a TVR but I'm not so sure about your driving, especially at Rockingham. For road use you may still require an oil thermostat by-pass plus you'll also need a T connector to connect the 1/8 x NPT oil pressure sender to the oil pressure switch that has a different thread.
Rover V8 oil filters have a pressure by-pass valve and normally the smaller the filter the lower the pressure by-pass which means even less oil is filtered above idle. However Peter (Phazed) uses WIX WL7168 filters (recommended Sardonicus) are much better than normal and worth using with a sandwich block.
Steve
RV8 - I'm doing my bit for Global warming
griffdude said:
Hello Matthew, still doing the hills & sprints but now in a SC MX5 which is proving very nearly as quick (slower on the straights but quicker through the twisties as I’m a bit braver/stupid now).
Sorry, I made a mistake, I used a sandwich plate but still managed to use the oil filter but it was very very tight. I ended up using a remote oil filter which is welded to the front chassis crossmember which was much easier.
Thanks Howard, Remote oil filter is a good shout and I have seen a few people do this. I am running out of room on my front crossmember so I think this may be a non starter for me.Sorry, I made a mistake, I used a sandwich plate but still managed to use the oil filter but it was very very tight. I ended up using a remote oil filter which is welded to the front chassis crossmember which was much easier.
jesfirth said:
hi matthew, good to meet you albeit very briefly at rockingham. my new AFM arrived last night so going to shove it on tonight - fingers crossed.
I have an oil cooler using the sandwich plate. as howard says getting the filter on is very tight but just about doable. the biggest problem is keeping the new filter full of oil while you manoeuvre it through the chassis rails to screw it on.
Hey Jes, pleasure to finally meet you at Rockingham. I am a huge fan of your sprint videos, very entertaining and great driving skill. Keep up the good work sir. I was going to send you an email to see how you got on with the AFM. I am gutted you did not get out on track, I was looking forward to seeing you out there.I have an oil cooler using the sandwich plate. as howard says getting the filter on is very tight but just about doable. the biggest problem is keeping the new filter full of oil while you manoeuvre it through the chassis rails to screw it on.
I wanted to try and avoid the sandwich plate for that reason but I am beginning to I think there is probably a reason no-one has used the OEM take offs!
Good luck with the AFM.
stevesprint said:
Matt
As its you, would you like to borrow these pipes.
Not all the oil flows though these pipes to the cooler but if good enough for a 2 tone Rangie with a trailer then maybe good enough for a TVR but I'm not so sure about your driving, especially at Rockingham. For road use you may still require an oil thermostat by-pass plus you'll also need a T connector to connect the 1/8 x NPT oil pressure sender to the oil pressure switch that has a different thread.
Rover V8 oil filters have a pressure by-pass valve and normally the smaller the filter the lower the pressure by-pass which means even less oil is filtered above idle. However Peter (Phazed) uses WIX WL7168 filters (recommended Sardonicus) are much better than normal and worth using with a sandwich block.
Steve
RV8 - I'm doing my bit for Global warming
You are a legend as always Steve, I would love to know what else you have squirrelled away! As its you, would you like to borrow these pipes.
Not all the oil flows though these pipes to the cooler but if good enough for a 2 tone Rangie with a trailer then maybe good enough for a TVR but I'm not so sure about your driving, especially at Rockingham. For road use you may still require an oil thermostat by-pass plus you'll also need a T connector to connect the 1/8 x NPT oil pressure sender to the oil pressure switch that has a different thread.
Rover V8 oil filters have a pressure by-pass valve and normally the smaller the filter the lower the pressure by-pass which means even less oil is filtered above idle. However Peter (Phazed) uses WIX WL7168 filters (recommended Sardonicus) are much better than normal and worth using with a sandwich block.
Steve
RV8 - I'm doing my bit for Global warming
A very kind offer indeed sir, please keep hold of them for the minute as I am still trying to work how this whole idea is going to work. As per usual I am after something that a lot of people have done, but slightly different.
I want to use the OEM take offs and I also want to fit the oil / water heat exchanger from the Speed Six cars have (or a Mocal unit) so I benefit from the oil heating up quicker and no overcooling in the winter.
I had a suspicion with the OEM take offs not all the oil passes through the cooler, you have just confirmed this for me so thank you. Ideally all I want all the oil to flow through so it gets cooled / heated quicker by the heat exchanger.
I am going to have to give this some thought.
Morning Matthew
Those oil temperatures would seem to be incorrect - should have been 115 degrees, not 150 - unless your car was seriously overheating. I have only ever had oil smoke out of the rear shortly before a piston ring replacement.
I have a sandwich plate arrangement for my air-type oil cooler, with a shorter filter. Not sure what make Mat S fitted, but I am assuming that he, as always, knew what he was doing.
I have to say that the water/oil type cooler does appeal - if I ever get my oil temperature sender located in the engine (I am a bit short of suitable take off points) I will have a better idea of how the cooler is performing. Luckily for most tracks I only need very low turbo boost, so heat doesn't seem to be a problem, but if I ever manage to get to Spa Francorchamps.........
Those oil temperatures would seem to be incorrect - should have been 115 degrees, not 150 - unless your car was seriously overheating. I have only ever had oil smoke out of the rear shortly before a piston ring replacement.
I have a sandwich plate arrangement for my air-type oil cooler, with a shorter filter. Not sure what make Mat S fitted, but I am assuming that he, as always, knew what he was doing.
I have to say that the water/oil type cooler does appeal - if I ever get my oil temperature sender located in the engine (I am a bit short of suitable take off points) I will have a better idea of how the cooler is performing. Luckily for most tracks I only need very low turbo boost, so heat doesn't seem to be a problem, but if I ever manage to get to Spa Francorchamps.........
QBee said:
Morning Matthew
Those oil temperatures would seem to be incorrect - should have been 115 degrees, not 150 - unless your car was seriously overheating. I have only ever had oil smoke out of the rear shortly before a piston ring replacement.
I have a sandwich plate arrangement for my air-type oil cooler, with a shorter filter. Not sure what make Mat S fitted, but I am assuming that he, as always, knew what he was doing.
I have to say that the water/oil type cooler does appeal - if I ever get my oil temperature sender located in the engine (I am a bit short of suitable take off points) I will have a better idea of how the cooler is performing. Luckily for most tracks I only need very low turbo boost, so heat doesn't seem to be a problem, but if I ever manage to get to Spa Francorchamps.........
When you do bagsy being your spanner man,,,,, Those oil temperatures would seem to be incorrect - should have been 115 degrees, not 150 - unless your car was seriously overheating. I have only ever had oil smoke out of the rear shortly before a piston ring replacement.
I have a sandwich plate arrangement for my air-type oil cooler, with a shorter filter. Not sure what make Mat S fitted, but I am assuming that he, as always, knew what he was doing.
I have to say that the water/oil type cooler does appeal - if I ever get my oil temperature sender located in the engine (I am a bit short of suitable take off points) I will have a better idea of how the cooler is performing. Luckily for most tracks I only need very low turbo boost, so heat doesn't seem to be a problem, but if I ever manage to get to Spa Francorchamps.........
I wonder if there’s a mechanics tool out there that you can use to suck some hot oil out say the oil filler pipe, a long syringe sort of thing you can then dip a suitable thermometer into. Instant accurate oil temp reading.
For some reason I have my doubts with all the heat concerned any of the measuring devices are accurate when after market applied. If nothing else it would confirm if these gauge based readings are accurate.
Valve stem seals can cause the odd puff of smoke especially when changing gear so I was once told. Maybe Simon or some other skilled man can confirm.
Matthew. I use a Spa twin digital oil temperature/oil pressure gauge which is very accurate.
I have been using takeoff plates for nearly 10 years now and have not had a problem with these. Choose one with a built-in thermostat and these suit the engine perfectly.
I have a very large air cooled radiator at the front and the temperatures are as follows.
Summer cruising, 85°
Summer track days, up to about 20 minutes on track, a maximum of 107°
Push it for longer and it slowly starts rising by a degree at a time but nothing desperate.
When I had a small oil cooler fitted temperatures on track would often exceed 115° very easily!
I would not suggest doing serious track days without any oil cooler as you will see temperatures well in excess of 120° after a while and quite quickly.
You can also see how the oil changes by the oil pressure. Normal pressure when idling, about 50Lbs, Idling after coming off track, about 35lbs
I can’t imagine what the oil temperatures were in the Skoda at the Rockingham track day as the pedal was buried in the carpet all day!
I need to think about that if I’m going to use it more often.
We spend, we drive, we fix and repeat
we spend, we drive, we fix and repeat
I have been using takeoff plates for nearly 10 years now and have not had a problem with these. Choose one with a built-in thermostat and these suit the engine perfectly.
I have a very large air cooled radiator at the front and the temperatures are as follows.
Summer cruising, 85°
Summer track days, up to about 20 minutes on track, a maximum of 107°
Push it for longer and it slowly starts rising by a degree at a time but nothing desperate.
When I had a small oil cooler fitted temperatures on track would often exceed 115° very easily!
I would not suggest doing serious track days without any oil cooler as you will see temperatures well in excess of 120° after a while and quite quickly.
You can also see how the oil changes by the oil pressure. Normal pressure when idling, about 50Lbs, Idling after coming off track, about 35lbs
I can’t imagine what the oil temperatures were in the Skoda at the Rockingham track day as the pedal was buried in the carpet all day!
I need to think about that if I’m going to use it more often.
We spend, we drive, we fix and repeat
we spend, we drive, we fix and repeat 
stevesprint said:
Matt
As its you, would you like to borrow these pipes.
Not all the oil flows though these pipes to the cooler but if good enough for a 2 tone Rangie with a trailer then maybe good enough for a TVR but I'm not so sure about your driving, especially at Rockingham. For road use you may still require an oil thermostat by-pass plus you'll also need a T connector to connect the 1/8 x NPT oil pressure sender to the oil pressure switch that has a different thread.
Rover V8 oil filters have a pressure by-pass valve and normally the smaller the filter the lower the pressure by-pass which means even less oil is filtered above idle. However Peter (Phazed) uses WIX WL7168 filters (recommended Sardonicus) are much better than normal and worth using with a sandwich block.
Steve
RV8 - I'm doing my bit for Global warming
Steve just to add the pressure bypass is purely for if the filter medium gets clogged or choked or collapses even As its you, would you like to borrow these pipes.
Not all the oil flows though these pipes to the cooler but if good enough for a 2 tone Rangie with a trailer then maybe good enough for a TVR but I'm not so sure about your driving, especially at Rockingham. For road use you may still require an oil thermostat by-pass plus you'll also need a T connector to connect the 1/8 x NPT oil pressure sender to the oil pressure switch that has a different thread.
Rover V8 oil filters have a pressure by-pass valve and normally the smaller the filter the lower the pressure by-pass which means even less oil is filtered above idle. However Peter (Phazed) uses WIX WL7168 filters (recommended Sardonicus) are much better than normal and worth using with a sandwich block.
Steve
RV8 - I'm doing my bit for Global warming
my prefered shorter filters at the moment are Mann W914/4 no bypass valve fitted (GM) or W914/2 (Cosworth) bypass valve fitted , these fit with the sandwich plate fitted Mocal etc and just about accommodate the Modine fat sandwich oil cooler I am using at present , Peter's oil temps I can agree with 
and although not as accurate as the SPA I have found the Caerbont oil temp gauge pretty much bang on backed up with a thermal gun at various operating temps 
it will be staying , pre jolly temps in pic on a warm day , also note on those pipes above Matthew the serp front cover has an odd arrangement that when those pipes are fitted bypass drilling/ports are closed off that allow the correct function of the cooler and oil direction/flow easier explained with a naked serp front cover and all the bungs/plugs removed just for your info really , you can see evidence of this on that lower pipes union and side entry drilling/hole I would be more specific but I dont have an interim serp front cover to display just a GEMS one and they are different 
Edited by Sardonicus on Monday 3rd September 12:09
Sardonicus said:
Steve just to add the pressure bypass is purely for if the filter medium gets clogged or choked or collapses even my prefered shorter filters at the moment are Mann W914/4 no bypass valve fitted (GM) or W914/2 (Cosworth) bypass valve fitted .......
Simon my prefered shorter filters at the moment are Mann W914/4 no bypass valve fitted (GM) or W914/2 (Cosworth) bypass valve fitted .......Thanks for proving and sharing its safe to run without a by-pass valve in the oil filter and for the info on Mann W914/4 no bypass or W914/2 (Cosworth) with bypass valve as I wasn't aware of them.
I was curious about running without the by-pass valve but wasn’t brave enough after Mann told me Land Rover recommend a by-pass valve otherwise without may cause pressure issues, but now I guess we don’t do enough miles to clog the filter.
I use Mann’s large W940 filters (142mm long & 2.5 bar by-pass) as they just fits my Precat with an intermediate/serp cover with a few mm to spare, Mann’s medium filter W930/20 (114mm long) has a similar 1 bar by-pass like Peter’s WIX Filters WL7168 that he’s well proven.
Although size is important and means you can go longer between services, I now realise keeping it clean is far more important otherwise the safely by-pass valve may open, I also now realise the by-pass valve does NOT just open because your oil pressure is higher than the by-pass valve.
Simon, Thanks for the explaination and sorry if I misled anyone.
Matt
I pulled my spare intermediate/Serp cover out of hiding (as squirrels do) and have to admit Simon is absolutely correct and I was wrong. You can see in this top picture the end of the pipe is blocked off which I didn’t realise and blocks off the direct internal flow to the filter when fitted.
Here you can see how the pipe fits into the cover and blocks the internal flow to the filter
In this 3rd picture you can see the lower oil pump chamber feeds the filter direct and the cooler when fitted plus also feeds the pressure relief valve, this is why I thought the flow was shares.
19 years ago John Eales told me not to use these exact pipes and then sold me a pair of blanking plugs and a sandwich plate which you can see in the picture below (sorry it’s not TVR), plus you can also see my old oil pressure T piece above the filter which could solve your issue Matt with the oil pressure gauge and switch.
Simon
Thanks for your clear and kind explanations; this has been a real educational thread.
I pulled my spare intermediate/Serp cover out of hiding (as squirrels do) and have to admit Simon is absolutely correct and I was wrong. You can see in this top picture the end of the pipe is blocked off which I didn’t realise and blocks off the direct internal flow to the filter when fitted.
Here you can see how the pipe fits into the cover and blocks the internal flow to the filter
In this 3rd picture you can see the lower oil pump chamber feeds the filter direct and the cooler when fitted plus also feeds the pressure relief valve, this is why I thought the flow was shares.
19 years ago John Eales told me not to use these exact pipes and then sold me a pair of blanking plugs and a sandwich plate which you can see in the picture below (sorry it’s not TVR), plus you can also see my old oil pressure T piece above the filter which could solve your issue Matt with the oil pressure gauge and switch.
Simon
Thanks for your clear and kind explanations; this has been a real educational thread.
Evening gents,
I really appreciate all your help with this, much appreciated. Peter & Steve I cannot believe you have gone the trouble of finding a serp intermediate cover and taking pictures, very kind of you indeed and very useful.
I genuinely was not expecting many replies to this thread, PH is a bit quiet now, this thread very much reminds me of 5 years ago PH.
Simon you are living the dream with the modine heat exchanger sandwich plate, if only they still made these!
I am a fan of the idea of using the OEM takeoffs but it looks like there is a reason no-one has done this in the past. Sandwich plate and stubby oil filter it is!
I think my root issue is twofold. The engine is original, never been rebuilt and is clearly tired now. I had a Carebont oil temperature gauge fitted so I could monitor oil temperatures, unfortunately the gauge or sender looks like it needs adjusting as it sits at around 140 on the motorway and pretty much instantly maxed out at 150 on the recent trackday. The sender is a boss welded into the sump so if anything it should read cooler than most. With the oil gauge not giving an accurate reading I was not able to keep an eye on the temps and I got a bit excited chasing other TVRs and clearly ended up overheating the oil. I wasn't ever out longer than 20 minutes but clearly this was too long. It has smoked a bit on the overrun for a few years now and like Alun has said a number of people have said valve stem seals. The smoke at Rockingham was a first though, an awful lot of it and ended up getting through 1.5 litres of oil that day.
I really appreciate all your help with this, much appreciated. Peter & Steve I cannot believe you have gone the trouble of finding a serp intermediate cover and taking pictures, very kind of you indeed and very useful.
I genuinely was not expecting many replies to this thread, PH is a bit quiet now, this thread very much reminds me of 5 years ago PH.
Simon you are living the dream with the modine heat exchanger sandwich plate, if only they still made these!
I am a fan of the idea of using the OEM takeoffs but it looks like there is a reason no-one has done this in the past. Sandwich plate and stubby oil filter it is!
I think my root issue is twofold. The engine is original, never been rebuilt and is clearly tired now. I had a Carebont oil temperature gauge fitted so I could monitor oil temperatures, unfortunately the gauge or sender looks like it needs adjusting as it sits at around 140 on the motorway and pretty much instantly maxed out at 150 on the recent trackday. The sender is a boss welded into the sump so if anything it should read cooler than most. With the oil gauge not giving an accurate reading I was not able to keep an eye on the temps and I got a bit excited chasing other TVRs and clearly ended up overheating the oil. I wasn't ever out longer than 20 minutes but clearly this was too long. It has smoked a bit on the overrun for a few years now and like Alun has said a number of people have said valve stem seals. The smoke at Rockingham was a first though, an awful lot of it and ended up getting through 1.5 litres of oil that day.
No way are you in the 100's on the motorway Matthew so I am going with a wiring or sender issue 
temps should be in the mid 80's regardless of engine spec until your on hard on the gas and using said extra capacity performance or whatever , not teaching you how to suck eggs just how it is
temps should be in the mid 80's regardless of engine spec until your on hard on the gas and using said extra capacity performance or whatever , not teaching you how to suck eggs just how it is Great thread.
I used similar amounts of oil when trying to keep you from gunning me down
My engines been rebuilt too remember. It’s just how it is I reckon.
I can’t remember who ( Chilli maybe ) but someone mentioned puffs of smoke from mine when changing gear but I was thrashing the arse off it
Simon mentioned there was no smoke when we were playing around the hills of Surrey earlier this year. Mine uses about a pint every 500 miles regardless of driving technique but since I’ve added 20/50 to the mix it uses very little.
It’s a good engine you have even if it is worn out ,,,,
I used similar amounts of oil when trying to keep you from gunning me down
My engines been rebuilt too remember. It’s just how it is I reckon.
I can’t remember who ( Chilli maybe ) but someone mentioned puffs of smoke from mine when changing gear but I was thrashing the arse off it
Simon mentioned there was no smoke when we were playing around the hills of Surrey earlier this year. Mine uses about a pint every 500 miles regardless of driving technique but since I’ve added 20/50 to the mix it uses very little.
It’s a good engine you have even if it is worn out ,,,,
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