‘93 Griff 500 sputtered, died, won’t restart

[bergxu]

Gents,

Had the Griff out on a good 150 mile run last weekend, behaved beautifully despite temps in the 90F range however on the way home, running about 70mph, the car coughed, shot out a big cloud of black smoke according to my buddy who was behind me, then died so I coasted it over to the shoulder and could hear the fuel pump run and it’ll crank over like crazy, just no hint of even wanting to fire, so I’ll presume we’ve got an ignition issue at hand. I thought maybe the ignition amplifier took the piss so I ordered a new Lucas item and fitted it but no joy (at least I’ve a spare now!) and I’ve got a new Bosch coil from TVR Parts but haven’t fitted that yet (ok ok I got hasty and bought parts before doing any diag work because I wanted to have the car ready for this weekend and it takes time to get the bits over here to the US). But where I’m at right now is I need to know where exactly the inertia switch is located and if I can bypass the Meta immobilizer as I’m not concerned about this car being stolen...nobody here knows what it is! Lastly, does anyone have a fuse/relay diagram and what is the 100A fuse on the chassis rail that I’ve been hearing about for?

By the way, my car is a pre-serpentine and I noticed that my dizzy appears to have been fitted from a later Griff as the ignition amp is different from the one that all of the pre-serp Griffs take per all of the parts shops. I presume this is a common upgrade? This car was always looked after by Taylor TVR before I brought it here to The Colonies.

Thanks all, any other suggestions always welcome.

Aaron

[sunbeam alpine]

When you say crank over like crazy, do you mean that it cranks faster than usual? Suggests loss of compression.

Have you check the timing chain/belt?

[Steve_D]

bergxu said:

could hear the fuel pump run and it’ll crank over like crazy,

Please confirm this is still the case. If it is then there is no problem with either the Meta or inertia switch. Which for future reference is fitted under the lower lip of the dash above the passengers knees.

bergxu said:

does anyone have a fuse/relay diagram

I have diagrams based on a later year Chim which will not be ideal but may help. PM me and I will send them.

bergxu said:

what is the 100A fuse on the chassis rail that I’ve been hearing about for?

The 100A fuse (if fitted to your car) is mounted to the underside of the engine mount bracket just forward of the starter motor. The fuse is in the line between the alternator and the starter solenoid so unless your battery is flat will not play a part in your current issues.
For reference the main issue with the fuse is that it is just a strip of alloy. Its normal failure mode is not blowing due to overcurrent but fractures due to vibration (who thought bolting it to the side of the engine was a good idea). If you want to inspect it then it is best to unbolt it as the fracture can be very difficult to spot. Once you have it out best to replace it with a ‘Mega Fuse’ which is much hardier.

So, back to the problem.
You say you have changed the ignition amp but did not say if you had good sparks at the plugs.

Steve

[bergxu]

Thanks for the speedy replies. When I say cranks over like crazy I mean that the battery is healthy so spins over nicely, so not a battery issue.

Admittedly, I didn’t spend any time diagnosing yet because I was hoping to have the car ready for this weekend so just got on and ordered parts which I figured wouldn’t be a bad thing to have on hand as spares anyways so I threw the ignition module in on a whim. I’ll check for spark later tonight when I’m home and report back.

[QBee]

Loose king lead, check both ends

ECU connector popped off,

Battery boiled over and leaked acid into the ECU (I have had that one - started and drove fine for half a mile, turned a corner and it just died. Turned over fine, nothing happened in the engine department. RAC completely foxed, partly because they couldn't try anything that might cause a fire. TVR expert found it in 10 minutes the next day.)

Big lump of muck blocking the fuel pipes, or a clogged fuel filter
As Steve D says, you need to check you have a good spark at the plugs (and fuel at the injectors).

As you already said, the non starting but turning over could be the inertia switch, but normally you have to have hit a serious bump pretty hard. I popped mine by going fast, sideways, into a gravel trap at a race circuit. Engine turned over fine, just no brm brm. But as far as I remember I had no fuel pump. TVR guru diagnosed it before I had started my second sentence on the phone. The first sentence was "Mat, I have just gone fast sideways into a gravel trap at Mallory Park and the car won't start". It's a rubber covered switch that you push in to reset it, IIRC.

[ESDavey]

My guess would be to look at lack of fuelling 1st. If meta then started motor won’t turn. If 100amp then battery is dead.

Inertia switch, fuel filter, pull out an injector or fuel pipe (with care & cup !) .... as I say, I’m guessing !

[bergxu]

During our drive, after we’d stop at various points, I could hear a “ping” noise which sounded like it was coming from the fuel tank and I was then getting a strong whiff of fuel inside the car for a spell then that went away. At our next stop I inspected everything under the bonnet but could no longer smell fuel and everything under the car was dry. The car behaved perfectly normal thereafter until the breakdown. Now it’s home in my garage after a flatbed tow, no fuel smell still but I’m wondering if the tank has something going on (plugging, etc..?). Going to do some ignition diagnosing today though and will report back.

Where’s the engine ECU located by the way?

[geeman237]

Aaron
The ECU is in the passenger footwell mess with the battery if you’ve still got the original one. My pre-cat ECU failed not long after getting mine here to the ‘colonies’. I bought a Range Rover one of the same vintage of EBay here in the US and swapped over the TVR chip. Btw, I have spare chips and a chip writer and eraser if needed here in the US.
Do you have RoverGauge too? If not I highly recommend it. I had numerous running problems with my car and it helped diagnose them. Sorry I can’t offer more help.

[bergxu]

Thanks for the information. I do have RoverGauge but I’ve not set it up yet. I found the ECU in the pass side footwell. Also checked for spark from the king lead on the coil and it’s good. I popped the dizzy cap off and found the riveted piece on the rotor arm loose so I’ve ordered up a new Lucas cap and rotor so shall see if that sorts us out. Whereabouts are you located? I’m in Cincinnati.

[geeman237]

bergxu said:

Whereabouts are you located? I’m in Cincinnati.

South Carolina. I think we’ve contacted before. I’ve since sold my Griffith via Bring A Trailer.

[bergxu]

geeman237 said:

South Carolina. I think we’ve contacted before. I’ve since sold my Griffith via Bring A Trailer.

Ahh right. The green one as I recall?

[geeman237]

bergxu said:

Ahh right. The green one as I recall?

Yup. T’was a bit of “lemon” so got rid after throwing too many $$$’s at it.

[catsey]

bergxu said:

Gents,

Had the Griff out on a good 150 mile run last weekend, behaved beautifully despite temps in the 90F range however on the way home, running about 70mph, the car coughed, shot out a big cloud of black smoke according to my buddy who was behind me, then died so I coasted it over to the shoulder and could hear the fuel pump run and it’ll crank over like crazy, just no hint of even wanting to fire, so I’ll presume we’ve got an ignition issue at hand. I thought maybe the ignition amplifier took the piss so I ordered a new Lucas item and fitted it but no joy (at least I’ve a spare now!) and I’ve got a new Bosch coil from TVR Parts but haven’t fitted that yet (ok ok I got hasty and bought parts before doing any diag work because I wanted to have the car ready for this weekend and it takes time to get the bits over here to the US). But where I’m at right now is I need to know where exactly the inertia switch is located and if I can bypass the Meta immobilizer as I’m not concerned about this car being stolen...nobody here knows what it is! Lastly, does anyone have a fuse/relay diagram and what is the 100A fuse on the chassis rail that I’ve been hearing about for?

By the way, my car is a pre-serpentine and I noticed that my dizzy appears to have been fitted from a later Griff as the ignition amp is different from the one that all of the pre-serp Griffs take per all of the parts shops. I presume this is a common upgrade? This car was always looked after by Taylor TVR before I brought it here to The Colonies.

Thanks all, any other suggestions always welcome.

Aaron

air flow sensor Black smoke indicator you have a failed air flow sensor i.e still getting ignition but air fuel ratio all to cock happened with me twice till I discovered reason the Air flow sensor was failing as PS to sensor was running close to HT plug leads this getting induction effect at high revs and blowing sensor.

[bergxu]

catsey said:

air flow sensor Black smoke indicator you have a failed air flow sensor i.e still getting ignition but air fuel ratio all to cock happened with me twice till I discovered reason the Air flow sensor was failing as PS to sensor was running close to HT plug leads this getting induction effect at high revs and blowing sensor.

Did your car totally quit and refuse to start afterward or were you seeing a fat mixture (eg black smoke when running)? If it’s in fact the AFM, the engine should fire if I unplug it then I presume, to at least narrow it down..

[geeman237]

Lots of troubleshooting help here in the technical section.
http://www.g33.co.uk/

[bergxu]

geeman237 said:

Lots of troubleshooting help here in the technical section.
http://www.g33.co.uk/

Cheers, thanks for that. I’m suspect of the rotor since the riveted contact was so loose. But I’ll have a good look at that site for reference.

[Bodmin]

bergxu said:

During our drive, after we’d stop at various points, I could hear a “ping” noise which sounded like it was coming from the fuel tank and I was then getting a strong whiff of fuel inside the car for a spell then that went away. At our next stop I inspected everything under the bonnet but could no longer smell fuel and everything under the car was dry. The car behaved perfectly normal thereafter until the breakdown. Now it’s home in my garage after a flatbed tow, no fuel smell still but I’m wondering if the tank has something going on (plugging, etc..?). Going to do some ignition diagnosing today though and will report back.

Where’s the engine ECU located by the way?

You may have a tank venting issue, the 'ping' noise you heard may be the fuel tank trying to implode due to vacuum build up. I do not know if the pre-serp engines have a carbon canister fitted in one of the front wheel arches like the serp engines have.

On the serp engines if the carbon canister becomes blocked there is no venting for the tank so the pump running about 3 bar of pressure
results in the tank trying to implode.

Try loosening the fuel filler cap, as that will vent the tank, and then try starting the engine. The fuel filler cap should be sprung loaded to act as an emergency vent but they can become faulty. I seem to remember there was a modified fuel cap that Leven (now closed) made to try and solve the issue.

It will only take a couple of minutes to check, worth a try

[bergxu]

Bodmin said:

You may have a tank venting issue, the 'ping' noise you heard may be the fuel tank trying to implode due to vacuum build up. I do not know if the pre-serp engines have a carbon canister fitted in one of the front wheel arches like the serp engines have.

On the serp engines if the carbon canister becomes blocked there is no venting for the tank so the pump running about 3 bar of pressure
results in the tank trying to implode.

Try loosening the fuel filler cap, as that will vent the tank, and then try starting the engine. The fuel filler cap should be sprung loaded to act as an emergency vent but they can become faulty. I seem to remember there was a modified fuel cap that Leven (now closed) made to try and solve the issue.

It will only take a couple of minutes to check, worth a try

Thanks for that info. That’s what I was thinking re the tank noise I was hearing. I’ll need to get the car up on my lift to have a good poke round and look for the charcoal canister. Meanwhile, she sits awaiting a new ignition rotor.

P.S. can someone PM me with info on bypassing the Meta from the ignition circuit? As I mentioned previously, I’m not worried about anyone stealing the car, most yanks think it’s a Miata anyhow, go figure.

[geeman237]

[quote]
..........most yanks think it’s a Miata anyhow, go figure.

[/quote]

That was the conclusion I came to as well

[catsey]

bergxu said:

Did your car totally quit and refuse to start afterward or were you seeing a fat mixture (eg black smoke when running)? If it’s in fact the AFM, the engine should fire if I unplug it then I presume, to at least narrow it down..

yes it will fire on the default setting run like a dog over rich barely get you home