Griff spec questions
Discussion
On the hunt for a Griff and looking at the various haves/have nots, would be grateful for some knowledgeable opinions.
How beneficial is power steering ? Most have but should I be put off one without ? I've searched back at the possible options and seems about 2k for an electric fit if needed. Had much lighter cars without, just wondering how heavy with a big V8 stuck on top.
How bad are standardGriff brakes ? Theres one up with upgraded brakes, but only one so guessing with the right pads standard is ok, road use only.
No pre cats or cats plus sleeved exhaust, I'm thinking this is going be very loud, would adding back the main cat quieten it back down a notch or is there a cheaper solution ?, what exactly does a sleeved exhaust comprise of ?
500 Griffs, cam change at about 50k ? Cost ?
Ta
How beneficial is power steering ? Most have but should I be put off one without ? I've searched back at the possible options and seems about 2k for an electric fit if needed. Had much lighter cars without, just wondering how heavy with a big V8 stuck on top.
How bad are standardGriff brakes ? Theres one up with upgraded brakes, but only one so guessing with the right pads standard is ok, road use only.
No pre cats or cats plus sleeved exhaust, I'm thinking this is going be very loud, would adding back the main cat quieten it back down a notch or is there a cheaper solution ?, what exactly does a sleeved exhaust comprise of ?
500 Griffs, cam change at about 50k ? Cost ?
Ta
I have a non PAS 4.3. Steering is heavy when parking etc but reversing into the garage etc is fine. Once moving I love the steering - not heavy at all. I would not be bothered to go via the steering upgrade route. I also have Alcon 4 Pot brake callipers on the front with standard rears and braided hoses all round. They are really good but I think the standards are from Ford Cosworth so pretty good. Hope that helps.
Hi, I’ve had a 500 with PAS and currently have a non-PAS 4.3. I find the 4.3 light enough when manoeuvring and plenty of feel on the move. As above personally I wouldn’t bother adding PAS but you’re much better to try with and without if possible at the moment. I also much prefer the revvier more sporting power delivery of the 4.3, and the quality of the sound over the 500 I had, but both are great fun, each variant has a strong following! I also find the brakes perfectly ok, but don’t know whether track work would throw up any shortcomings
The later Griff brakes are O.K, although not quite as good as the Tamora. But perfectly adequate for road use.
Cam shaft change can be needed at 20+ thousand miles and you will probably have to allow for up to £2k dependent on specialist.
Power steering is a good option to have because it reduces the kick back and it also helps when you want to re-sell the car. As the previous person said, parking speeds can be a nightmare.
With most cars being 20+ years old now, you will find that the suspension is now worn out and can benefit from replacement.
The cars can get very warm inside on a hot day with the roof up, should not have said that. But check the condition of the radiator, since cooling is marginal.
16" wheels on the front improve the driving/handling
Having said all that, these cars are addictive!
Cam shaft change can be needed at 20+ thousand miles and you will probably have to allow for up to £2k dependent on specialist.
Power steering is a good option to have because it reduces the kick back and it also helps when you want to re-sell the car. As the previous person said, parking speeds can be a nightmare.
With most cars being 20+ years old now, you will find that the suspension is now worn out and can benefit from replacement.
The cars can get very warm inside on a hot day with the roof up, should not have said that. But check the condition of the radiator, since cooling is marginal.
16" wheels on the front improve the driving/handling
Having said all that, these cars are addictive!
[quote=citizen smith
Cam shaft change can be needed at 20+ thousand miles and you will probably have to allow for up to £2k dependent on specialist.
Power steering is a good option to have because it reduces the kick back and it also helps when you want to re-sell the car. As the previous person said, parking speeds can be a nightmare.
[/quote]
Cam shafts should last much longer than that as long as the car has been properly serviced.
My car doesn't have PAS and I don't have kickback - my old V6 Tuscan from years ago did have! The non-PAS steering gives excellent feedback on the road which I like. I wouldn't call effort at parking speeds to be a nightmare but each to their own.
Cam shaft change can be needed at 20+ thousand miles and you will probably have to allow for up to £2k dependent on specialist.
Power steering is a good option to have because it reduces the kick back and it also helps when you want to re-sell the car. As the previous person said, parking speeds can be a nightmare.
[/quote]
Cam shafts should last much longer than that as long as the car has been properly serviced.
My car doesn't have PAS and I don't have kickback - my old V6 Tuscan from years ago did have! The non-PAS steering gives excellent feedback on the road which I like. I wouldn't call effort at parking speeds to be a nightmare but each to their own.
I don't think power steering is really needed [ I am an old bloke of 73 with skinny arms and it's fine;] just did 1200 miles a week ago and no worries. regarding power steering the original set-ups are often just about clapped out and are problematic to rebuild with any good life expectancy. Some owners have run to 100k miles without a cam change so it is a bit of a lottery; good luck with your search.
I have owned a 1996 500 for 18 years now and am older than Aussie John and about half his size.
After a winters layup and driving the car for the first time compared to a modern car with PS etc. you would think that the steering was locked solid.
But after a few miles as soon as you get going I find the steering fine with no kick back. It is heavy parking but how much time do you spend parking?
For normal road driving the original brakes are more than adequate.
The standard manifold/exhaust with both Y-piece and pre cats set up produces a pleasant sound and on a long journey is to my aging ears much more relaxing than a raucous de catted system.
Because of the very nature of the car, being basically built on a shoe string there are some shortcomings not found on a production modern car.
Be aware that some owners are constant fiddlers and without detailed knowledge can cause more problems than they cure.
Join the TVR car Club they are a friendly bunch and am sure would help you when you see a possible car.
Best of luck!
www.bertram-hill.com
After a winters layup and driving the car for the first time compared to a modern car with PS etc. you would think that the steering was locked solid.
But after a few miles as soon as you get going I find the steering fine with no kick back. It is heavy parking but how much time do you spend parking?
For normal road driving the original brakes are more than adequate.
The standard manifold/exhaust with both Y-piece and pre cats set up produces a pleasant sound and on a long journey is to my aging ears much more relaxing than a raucous de catted system.
Because of the very nature of the car, being basically built on a shoe string there are some shortcomings not found on a production modern car.
Be aware that some owners are constant fiddlers and without detailed knowledge can cause more problems than they cure.
Join the TVR car Club they are a friendly bunch and am sure would help you when you see a possible car.
Best of luck!
www.bertram-hill.com
A sleeved exhaust comprises the original pipe into baffle box in the centre of exhaust then onto both tail pipes so this silencer box is the only one on the car. Sleeving this box requires the box to be cut open and peeled back wadding removed, cut out perforated pipes and replace them for straight through ones. Replace wadding and weld back up.
So with no pre cats or main cat you know have a completely straight through exhaust!
Insanely loud and often sounds ratherTug boat at low revs.
Yes reinstating main Catted Y piece will reduce the noise but without replacing straight through solid pipes in baffle box for perforated ones it will remain rather loud, likely to be near 98 db or more.
The ideal set up if you want to keep the harmonics working would be to return it to standard but this does take some power away but it’s not like bucket loads!
I’d maybe start with trying a Catted Y piece if you have one as that might be enough but I feel you will need to remove the sleeved exhaust to achieve a decent sound when on motorways that does not pressurise your ear drums into giving you a headache within an hour or two of driving. Sleeved sounds great from outside the car but totally ruins the experience from within the car imho. If you never expect to drive more than a few miles then it’s fine but if you want to tour for days on end you will want the proper pipe set up as it’s subtle and a lot more civilised than a sleeved non cat set up unless it’s an early car with the correct manifolds pipes for de cat cars.Either way you will most likely need a baffled silencer box to have half a chance.
One option used to be two cherry bomb type baffles welded where the box would be, that’s a nice raspy sound but not heavy on your hearing and at lower revs control boom nicely, but it’s still louder than standard.
My Chim has pre cats removed but using main cat Y and baffled exhaust. I’ve had various set ups and one was deliberately for power alone so I could go drag racing but a week later it was off the car. I have a blown ear drum so pressure changes effect my hearing and equilibrium,,,,,,,, I have to use a Catted Y and baffled box to control those pressure changes or my head feels like it’s being sucked in and out which is a bit extreme but just shows how much baffling reduces these conflicting harmonics.
I’m sure if my ears would cope my favourite sound would be pre cats removed a Clive Y or early pre cat TVR manifolds or Clive’s or ACT manifolds which in themselves probably add 10-15 hp. with a baffled box to just deaden it down a bit inside the cabin.
The holy grail
So with no pre cats or main cat you know have a completely straight through exhaust!
Insanely loud and often sounds ratherTug boat at low revs.
Yes reinstating main Catted Y piece will reduce the noise but without replacing straight through solid pipes in baffle box for perforated ones it will remain rather loud, likely to be near 98 db or more.
The ideal set up if you want to keep the harmonics working would be to return it to standard but this does take some power away but it’s not like bucket loads!
I’d maybe start with trying a Catted Y piece if you have one as that might be enough but I feel you will need to remove the sleeved exhaust to achieve a decent sound when on motorways that does not pressurise your ear drums into giving you a headache within an hour or two of driving. Sleeved sounds great from outside the car but totally ruins the experience from within the car imho. If you never expect to drive more than a few miles then it’s fine but if you want to tour for days on end you will want the proper pipe set up as it’s subtle and a lot more civilised than a sleeved non cat set up unless it’s an early car with the correct manifolds pipes for de cat cars.Either way you will most likely need a baffled silencer box to have half a chance.
One option used to be two cherry bomb type baffles welded where the box would be, that’s a nice raspy sound but not heavy on your hearing and at lower revs control boom nicely, but it’s still louder than standard.
My Chim has pre cats removed but using main cat Y and baffled exhaust. I’ve had various set ups and one was deliberately for power alone so I could go drag racing but a week later it was off the car. I have a blown ear drum so pressure changes effect my hearing and equilibrium,,,,,,,, I have to use a Catted Y and baffled box to control those pressure changes or my head feels like it’s being sucked in and out which is a bit extreme but just shows how much baffling reduces these conflicting harmonics.
I’m sure if my ears would cope my favourite sound would be pre cats removed a Clive Y or early pre cat TVR manifolds or Clive’s or ACT manifolds which in themselves probably add 10-15 hp. with a baffled box to just deaden it down a bit inside the cabin.
The holy grail
Many Thanks for the help all. I think my biggest worry was resale without PAS as so many have it fitted.
Had a Tamora a few years back so not new to the foibles of TVR ownership.
There's a purple one on Autotrader with Clive F manifolds, non cat Y and sleeved, this one also has SP12s and huge brakes, seems to have thrown money at the car.
Found another which sounds ideal, new outriggers and genuinely looked after just no PAS
Decisions...decisions
Had a Tamora a few years back so not new to the foibles of TVR ownership.
There's a purple one on Autotrader with Clive F manifolds, non cat Y and sleeved, this one also has SP12s and huge brakes, seems to have thrown money at the car.
Found another which sounds ideal, new outriggers and genuinely looked after just no PAS
Decisions...decisions
Personally I would never buy a car without power steering unless I was going to fit it myself.
I have had both and much prefer the feel of the car with power steering. In fact I wouldn’t buy one without unless I had it in mind to convert it to power steering. My advice is to try both back to back. Having driven many TVRs there also seems to be a difference in power steering models. Some seem to be heavier than others. This may be down to the tyres so as an I suggested, try both.
My first car didn’t have power steering a 4.6 Chim and I converted that to power steering using a Subaru rack. Works perfectly at a cost of a few hundred pounds if you do it yourself. There are a few people out there that will do it for you, I believe Mat Smith has done a few.
If you think that you might do a few track days, power steering is definitely the way to go. Coming off track in a non-power steering car will have you absolutely bathed in sweat as the effort needed to constantly change direction without power steering is surprisingly great. Add power steering and all the effort is removed with also far better feel and the ability to correct breakaway instantaneously which you cannot do without power steering. That isn’t just my feeling but also that of a successful race driver who drove my non-PS car on track, (Love the car but absolutely hated the steering).
Power steering is fitted for a reason, the reason being the steering is far too heavy especially by modern standards. As said above, climb out of your standard daily into a Griff or Chim without power steering and you do think the tyres are flat. Of course when you are moving that is reduced considerably. If you have the option go for the power steering.
Exhaust, I would go for standard, it is loud enough and most alternatives drone and get on the nerves on long distances.
They all develop a lot of cabin heat. If anyone tells you otherwise they are lying. They are fine whilst moving but certainly in England, get stuck in a bit of traffic in summer even with the roof off and you will wish you were elsewhere!
As for Camshafts, it’s a lottery. The trouble is with the hydraulic lifters, they absorb wear in the camshaft and therefore the engine will sound smooth and sweet and yet it may only develop 70% of what it should do. Ideally, get a rolling road print out to justify the power claims.
As you were.......
I have had both and much prefer the feel of the car with power steering. In fact I wouldn’t buy one without unless I had it in mind to convert it to power steering. My advice is to try both back to back. Having driven many TVRs there also seems to be a difference in power steering models. Some seem to be heavier than others. This may be down to the tyres so as an I suggested, try both.
My first car didn’t have power steering a 4.6 Chim and I converted that to power steering using a Subaru rack. Works perfectly at a cost of a few hundred pounds if you do it yourself. There are a few people out there that will do it for you, I believe Mat Smith has done a few.
If you think that you might do a few track days, power steering is definitely the way to go. Coming off track in a non-power steering car will have you absolutely bathed in sweat as the effort needed to constantly change direction without power steering is surprisingly great. Add power steering and all the effort is removed with also far better feel and the ability to correct breakaway instantaneously which you cannot do without power steering. That isn’t just my feeling but also that of a successful race driver who drove my non-PS car on track, (Love the car but absolutely hated the steering).
Power steering is fitted for a reason, the reason being the steering is far too heavy especially by modern standards. As said above, climb out of your standard daily into a Griff or Chim without power steering and you do think the tyres are flat. Of course when you are moving that is reduced considerably. If you have the option go for the power steering.
Exhaust, I would go for standard, it is loud enough and most alternatives drone and get on the nerves on long distances.
They all develop a lot of cabin heat. If anyone tells you otherwise they are lying. They are fine whilst moving but certainly in England, get stuck in a bit of traffic in summer even with the roof off and you will wish you were elsewhere!
As for Camshafts, it’s a lottery. The trouble is with the hydraulic lifters, they absorb wear in the camshaft and therefore the engine will sound smooth and sweet and yet it may only develop 70% of what it should do. Ideally, get a rolling road print out to justify the power claims.
As you were.......
For some there is nostalgia and a feeling of more control without PS but it’s a bit of a myth as the same vibrations that come through say tyre scrub still transmit through PS racks and onto steering shafts just the same but more subtle possibly.
I remember the Tif video where he mentions how he preferred PS on TVR as he could fine tune the steering on track with tiny movements which are much harder to control without PS.
Some PS racks cause the car to feel a bit vague, that or the geo is wrong but mostly it’s better imho.
I remember the Tif video where he mentions how he preferred PS on TVR as he could fine tune the steering on track with tiny movements which are much harder to control without PS.
Some PS racks cause the car to feel a bit vague, that or the geo is wrong but mostly it’s better imho.
My first Griff 500 had power steering and I found that fine. When I was looking for another, way back in 2008, I tried examples both with and without PAS just for comparison purposes. To me, the ones without felt like much older cars on the road (I believe the rack is slower as well as obviously heavier). Ended up buying one with PAS which I still have.
Also, just be aware that if you change you mind and decide to do track days you will:
a) need bigger brakes than the standard set up and
b) will need some silencing in the exhaust system. For reference, fully decatted but with a standard exhaust is right on the limit of most track noise limits, and likely to fail on some that have lower limits.
So the car with power steering that already had bigger brakes, SP12 wheels etc would be the one I would be considering, for its built in track-day potential.
But that's me, not you - thankfully we are all different.
a) need bigger brakes than the standard set up and
b) will need some silencing in the exhaust system. For reference, fully decatted but with a standard exhaust is right on the limit of most track noise limits, and likely to fail on some that have lower limits.
So the car with power steering that already had bigger brakes, SP12 wheels etc would be the one I would be considering, for its built in track-day potential.
But that's me, not you - thankfully we are all different.
In most cases people will tell you they prefer what they have. Those of us without PAS will tell you we don't need it and like the "feel" those with it are unlikely to say they prefer it without. I didn't actually have it as a must have or have not when I bought mine 12 years ago the condition and history and colours outside and in were the important things. At least there's not a huge list of other options to check off when looking for your ideal car.
It is a bit heavy when you park but once moving it is lovely. I hear those that track theirs say you can catch it easier I have never tracked mine but have lost the back end on a greasy slip road and it was relatively easy to collect it up. Non PAS cars should only have 205 width tyres on the front so check that when you drive one as wider will be very heavy?
I had a thoroughly nice hour long brisk drive in mine yesterday after a tetanus jab in the arm muscle and everything was fine afterwards no sweat or aching shoulders. The only problem I had yesterday was the t
t in an Audi TT who insisted showing me his modern car could stay glued to the rear bumper of my 24 year old car coming out of Chinnor
Maybe some James Bond oil sprayers would be a better extra
Englishman said:
... I believe the rack is slower as well as obviously heavier...
Correct - I believe the ratios are 2.2 turns lock-to-lock for PS and 2.8 without? I find the PS 2.2 the perfect ratio, conferring precision and speed-of-response without being twitchy - whereas non-PS felt more like 90's steering to me; more twirling required making it slower to respond, and dulling the nimbleness to my senses...
Agree with the Tiff comment someone posted...
HTH...
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