Mk1 Project & Bodyshells Ringer or not?
Discussion
A question to settle a difference of opinion:
I was having a chat with a neighbour who is into his classics and wants to do a mk1 mini as a long term project.
He was saying that he would just re-shell it as the cost was viable on a Mk1, I said there are no Mk1 shells available so he'd have to butcher a MkIV/V from BMH to do it and he'd also end up on a Q plate. Either way there was no way to retain the tax status and original V5 if he went down the re-shell route.
Then he said if he used all new/reconditioned or even restored Mk1 parts even from another car for the rest of the build he could basically transfer the current Mk1 V5 over to it as it had enough "historical" parts even with the MkIV/V shell from BMH.
On a technicality I said if he basically created a Mk1 look-a-like from just certified all new parts he could qualify for a 10/11 reg through the SVA rather than a Q, but obviously no tax break.
My stance was that unless he restores the original shell or unless BMH start doing Mk1 shells he has created a ringer if he continues to use the same V5. By using a heritage shell he'll be able to recreate a Mk1 look-alike but must re-register the car.
Anyone got a definitive answer?
I was having a chat with a neighbour who is into his classics and wants to do a mk1 mini as a long term project.
He was saying that he would just re-shell it as the cost was viable on a Mk1, I said there are no Mk1 shells available so he'd have to butcher a MkIV/V from BMH to do it and he'd also end up on a Q plate. Either way there was no way to retain the tax status and original V5 if he went down the re-shell route.
Then he said if he used all new/reconditioned or even restored Mk1 parts even from another car for the rest of the build he could basically transfer the current Mk1 V5 over to it as it had enough "historical" parts even with the MkIV/V shell from BMH.
On a technicality I said if he basically created a Mk1 look-a-like from just certified all new parts he could qualify for a 10/11 reg through the SVA rather than a Q, but obviously no tax break.
My stance was that unless he restores the original shell or unless BMH start doing Mk1 shells he has created a ringer if he continues to use the same V5. By using a heritage shell he'll be able to recreate a Mk1 look-alike but must re-register the car.
Anyone got a definitive answer?
Edited by OneDs on Wednesday 7th April 11:48
Well, if ebay is anything to go by and the way that DVLA refuse to enforce the max 2 year prison sentence/£5000 fine. You could just get your Mk1 V5 and go and steal someone's Mk1 and then whack your plates on it. It would save a huge amount of work.
If the V5 has expired, it could be a bit more exciting with people turning up to "see" what you're up to.
If the V5 has expired, it could be a bit more exciting with people turning up to "see" what you're up to.
if using a heritage shell you can 'just about' get away with it (more so when the 'new' heritage mk1 shells appear........)
using old shells is now a no-no, particually with the new iva (or newly rigerously enforced) test is about
oh, and i know of at least one person who did a jail term for ringing using a mk1 v5 on a newer car......... they also took the car, and as he couldnt prove ownership of it, he never got it back.....
using old shells is now a no-no, particually with the new iva (or newly rigerously enforced) test is about
oh, and i know of at least one person who did a jail term for ringing using a mk1 v5 on a newer car......... they also took the car, and as he couldnt prove ownership of it, he never got it back.....
Thanks we are aware that there are some very very dodgy bitsa cars about, the guy is very genuine and just wants to do a project that will have some provenance, he thoughht that Mk1 shells were available, once I said that I believe they are but not from BMH which is where you'd have to get to satisfy Mr DVLA, we got in to a world of ifs & buts.
We just wanted to be clear where the difference between a ringer and a restoration was, between us we couldn't seem to clarify what would apply in the different scenarios.
We just wanted to be clear where the difference between a ringer and a restoration was, between us we couldn't seem to clarify what would apply in the different scenarios.
I think alot of it is down to appirance. If you made a later shell look like a old shell including all the small details, you may get away with it. I take it that the MOT people would be the people how would tell on you. If I am correct on this then you just have to convince them? Or are there any other checks for TAX free cars?
DanGT said:
I think alot of it is down to appirance. If you made a later shell look like a old shell including all the small details, you may get away with it. I take it that the MOT people would be the people how would tell on you. If I am correct on this then you just have to convince them? Or are there any other checks for TAX free cars?
vosa are staring to 'flag' cars that they see at shows/on forums that 'look' suspicious, then, when the owner next tries to mot/tax the car they are made aware that the car needs to be inspected.car ok = all is well, car is a ringer, owner has to either go through the iva route or worse - at best case the car is issued a 'q' plate (after a 450 quid test) - worse case it has its logbook removed.
they have been doing it to landrovers for the last couple of years, it would appear that minis and beetles are the next target.
If you genuinely own a Mk 1, albeit in a poor state, you can restore it so long as the basis of the car remains original. You can re-build the bodyshell with loads of new panels and so long as you record the work and the basis of the original shell remains you will never have any problems. If you try to put a 'Heritage' shell onto a Mk 1 identity, that would be where the problems start. A Mk 4/5 shell is not a Mk 1 - it is very different.
Of course, if your restoration was by using another genuine Mk. 1 shell, technically it would not be allowable, but it's unlikely anyone would look far enough to check. And how would they check anyway? After 41 to 50 years of age, the 'original' shell is likely to have been repaired, restored and rebuilt at least once years ago. If a 'Heritage' Mk 1 shell existed, it would be legal to re-shell an old Mk 1 into a new Mk. 1 heritage shell, just as so many do with the MGB without any problems.
All Mk. 1 shells are re-buildable, however rusty (you may need a man with a body-build jig) and that's all legal. What is not legal is to buy a Mk. 1 V5 and then get a Mk 3 1973-onwards car and 'ring' it to appear to be a Mk 1 and thus avoid the due road tax - very silly thing to try to do.
Of course, if your restoration was by using another genuine Mk. 1 shell, technically it would not be allowable, but it's unlikely anyone would look far enough to check. And how would they check anyway? After 41 to 50 years of age, the 'original' shell is likely to have been repaired, restored and rebuilt at least once years ago. If a 'Heritage' Mk 1 shell existed, it would be legal to re-shell an old Mk 1 into a new Mk. 1 heritage shell, just as so many do with the MGB without any problems.
All Mk. 1 shells are re-buildable, however rusty (you may need a man with a body-build jig) and that's all legal. What is not legal is to buy a Mk. 1 V5 and then get a Mk 3 1973-onwards car and 'ring' it to appear to be a Mk 1 and thus avoid the due road tax - very silly thing to try to do.
Just a conversation at the moment, I suppose the best (most solid & safest) solution would be a mythical Mk1 BMH shell, failing that the most provenant solution would be a documented restoration of the current Mk1 shell. Anything else could potentially open a can of worms.
Edited by OneDs on Wednesday 7th April 17:07
How bad it the current shell. I have a friend who has a jig and can restore a shell to as-new condition. You should see the 1959 shell whih he's just done. It has new floors, wings, sills, et, but is still technically the original and meets the 1959 specifiation exactly. He's also just done a pick-up to the same high standard from a rust-bucket. It's all legal as the original shell is used as a basis for the resto. If you want to do it, I'll give you his number. He really is not expensive and it'll cost less than buying one of the 'poor-quality' Heritage shells currently on sale.
Hi Guys,
I've just bought a Mini project, The V5 states it a Austin Mini 1976. The engine is a 1340cc rebuild with no distinguishing marks or numbers, the Chassis numbers match the V5 Document but as far as i can tell the only 1967 mini left on the car are the rear lights??!
Where do I stand legally on this one, i don't want to spend all this money fixing it up only to have it taken away from me because its not on the right plates and its not tax exempt!
Thanks
I've just bought a Mini project, The V5 states it a Austin Mini 1976. The engine is a 1340cc rebuild with no distinguishing marks or numbers, the Chassis numbers match the V5 Document but as far as i can tell the only 1967 mini left on the car are the rear lights??!
Where do I stand legally on this one, i don't want to spend all this money fixing it up only to have it taken away from me because its not on the right plates and its not tax exempt!
Thanks
Did you mean 1976 or 1967?
If it's a Mk 1 from 1967 and the shell is a genuine Mk 1, then you should not have a problem. It's tax-exempt early V5's built into later Mk3 and onwards shells (inside hinges, winding windows, etc) which are the problem. With a Mk 1 it's difficult to identify the shell anyway as it will have been worked on in the last 43 years to cure rust, accidents, etc.
With a genuine V5 it is possible to get re-made VIN plates and engine number plates, so that's not an issue.
If it's a Mk 1 from 1967 and the shell is a genuine Mk 1, then you should not have a problem. It's tax-exempt early V5's built into later Mk3 and onwards shells (inside hinges, winding windows, etc) which are the problem. With a Mk 1 it's difficult to identify the shell anyway as it will have been worked on in the last 43 years to cure rust, accidents, etc.
With a genuine V5 it is possible to get re-made VIN plates and engine number plates, so that's not an issue.
The shell of a mini is what contains the VIN number, the same as the chassis on other cars such a Land Rovers and Triumphs. You can do significant repairs to the shell (or chassis) as long as it remains the original. You can also use a brand new shell or chassis as these have never been issued a VIN and the VIN number can be transferered to this. If you use a 2nd hand one, then this effectively contains the VIN of another vehicle which either needs to be covered up or removed - both methods arousing a great deal of suspicion!! You may get away with it for a number of years until a keen MOT inspector decides to check that the VIN matches the registration, and then the trouble would start!!
id guess that the correct answer is that if your car was 'reshelled' using a secondhand shell after 1998 then whoever did it should have put it through the sva test - in which case it would have been issued with a 'q'plate (so would loose its tax excempt status)
if it was reshelled between 1984 and 1998 then you 'should' be ok as the rules where different in those days, but its probably a good idea to have supporting paperwork from that time 'just in case'. i have a car that was reshelled in this time and have photos, a letter from the garage and the copy of the invoice for the shell and the conversion work. at that time every thing the garage did complyed with the law at as it stood at that time.
the days of using 1960's logbooks and simply screwing a shiney new set of plates and a vin tag to a obvious later car are over now.
if it was reshelled between 1984 and 1998 then you 'should' be ok as the rules where different in those days, but its probably a good idea to have supporting paperwork from that time 'just in case'. i have a car that was reshelled in this time and have photos, a letter from the garage and the copy of the invoice for the shell and the conversion work. at that time every thing the garage did complyed with the law at as it stood at that time.
the days of using 1960's logbooks and simply screwing a shiney new set of plates and a vin tag to a obvious later car are over now.
Cooperman said:
How bad it the current shell. I have a friend who has a jig and can restore a shell to as-new condition. You should see the 1959 shell whih he's just done. It has new floors, wings, sills, et, but is still technically the original and meets the 1959 specifiation exactly. He's also just done a pick-up to the same high standard from a rust-bucket. It's all legal as the original shell is used as a basis for the resto. If you want to do it, I'll give you his number. He really is not expensive and it'll cost less than buying one of the 'poor-quality' Heritage shells currently on sale.
Hi there Cooperman,
I’ve read your reply and was wondering if the guy who was an expert welder was still operating. I have the opportunity of getting a mk1 shell in need of repair but. Every panel need work or is rotten in some way. It could really do with reshelling but I am worried about creating a ringer as so to speak. If he’s still around I wouldn’t mind getting his details.
Cheers.
I’ve read your reply and was wondering if the guy who was an expert welder was still operating. I have the opportunity of getting a mk1 shell in need of repair but. Every panel need work or is rotten in some way. It could really do with reshelling but I am worried about creating a ringer as so to speak. If he’s still around I wouldn’t mind getting his details.
Cheers.
Ptull3 said:
Hi there Cooperman,
I’ve read your reply and was wondering if the guy who was an expert welder was still operating. I have the opportunity of getting a mk1 shell in need of repair but. Every panel need work or is rotten in some way. It could really do with reshelling but I am worried about creating a ringer as so to speak. If he’s still around I wouldn’t mind getting his details.
Cheers.
Heritage shells have moved on since 2010. They produce pretty good Mk1 shells now, having ironed out a lot of the inconsistencies/ quality issues of the first examples. I believe they are legally allowed to be used as they are new, and at around £10k they make a lot of sense vs getting a completely rotten one restored.I’ve read your reply and was wondering if the guy who was an expert welder was still operating. I have the opportunity of getting a mk1 shell in need of repair but. Every panel need work or is rotten in some way. It could really do with reshelling but I am worried about creating a ringer as so to speak. If he’s still around I wouldn’t mind getting his details.
Cheers.
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